North Korea to reform economy, abandon "military first"

[The Nuclear Fist]

I'll put it this way: I subscribe to "absolute morality" of sorts. Whatever action advances the interests of the working class in its revolution is "good". Whatever action hinders it is "evil".

Having constant and grievous mistreatment, including being starved at the hands of incompetent Stalinist agricultural policy, advances no cause. And what have you done to advance the interests of the working class? What have done at all?

Because, again, I don't claim to have unwavering support for "human rights" as neoliberals define them. It's just about class interest to me. That, and that alone, is my determining factor.

Neoliberals didn't write the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. And not being constantly abused is a pretty good class interest.

I support the working class. Anyone who wants to relegate us to a position akin to slavery to a parasitic capitalist class must be overcome through any means necessary. And Man-se! to anyone fighting for such ends!

You don't support the working class, buddy. You don't support it at all. At the very least, I can say I was a part of the revolution that brought down my nation's dictator. What about you? You are supporting the modern epitome of totalitarian dictatorships. You're not a socialist. You're not a revolutionary. You're not even a leftist. You're a Fascist, stop deluding yourself.

[Ganos Lao]

I really don't see why this is such a hard concept for everyone in this thread to grasp.

Could it be because your ideas are not at all beneficial for the working man?

[Keronians]

I see you hate yourself an awful lot then.

I *support* the workers.

Do you, or do you not, believe in a market economy? Doesn't matter if it's capitalist or socialist. Do you believe in a market economy?

[Dokuritsu Nippon]

Ehh... I have some ideas. Not really keen on discussing them with non-vanguards though.

I'm all for worker's rights. But unlike you, and people like you, I tend to look to ideas that aren't rooted in absurdity.

And how, pray tell, can workers be liberated without a collapse of the capitalist-imperialist system?

[The Joseon Dynasty]

I'm not disputing your ideological subscriptions (to each their own), rather, the issue lies with what you have pegged as "good" and "evil".
North Korea is neither good, nor evil. It is a state, which, like all others, cannot be simplified to something as black-and-white as your moral perceptions.

It supports my class interests, so I in turn support it. *shrugs*

I really don't see why this is such a hard concept for everyone in this thread to grasp.

No, it doesn't.

North Korea maintains a rigid social hierarchy, privileged and under-priviliged classes, stoppages to social mobility, etc. These oppose your ideological objectives, no different from the characteristics of the other states you've criticised.

The fact of the matter is that no country out there slips nicely into your "absolute morality".

[Dokuritsu Nippon]

I *support* the workers.

Do you, or do you not, believe in a market economy? Doesn't matter if it's capitalist or socialist. Do you believe in a market economy?

If it's one involving trade between industries in which workers control the means of production, without usury, I don't have a problem with it.

[Ganos Lao]

I'm all for worker's rights. But unlike you, and people like you, I tend to look to ideas that aren't rooted in absurdity.

And how, pray tell, can workers be liberated without a collapse of the capitalist-imperialist system?

And how, pray tell, can workers be liberated by following the principles of a hellhole like North Korea?

Just look at this: How is this a worker's state if workers can't even have freedom in trivial matters like this?

[Chinese Regions]

I'm not disputing your ideological subscriptions (to each their own), rather, the issue lies with what you have pegged as "good" and "evil".
North Korea is neither good, nor evil. It is a state, which, like all others, cannot be simplified to something as black-and-white as your moral perceptions.

It supports my class interests, so I in turn support it. *shrugs*

I really don't see why this is such a hard concept for everyone in this thread to grasp.

Firstly viewing the world in black and white is a very bad idea, secondly again, what is socialism where there is almost nothing to share between the masses? And what is classlessness when you have a three generations of fat idiots and the military ruling over a starving population?

[Lerro]

It does restrict free elections. Communists and supporters of North Korea are unable to vote for their interests.

They can vote with their feet and move into the workers' paradise.

Everything else was an abuse, but I never denied that such abuses existed. Only that the act wasn't opposed by South Koreans and that overall human rights are protected in the country.

[Keronians]

I'm all for worker's rights. But unlike you, and people like you, I tend to look to ideas that aren't rooted in absurdity.

And how, pray tell, can workers be liberated without a collapse of the capitalist-imperialist system?

Workers aren't oppressed, so I'm not sure why they need to be liberated.

[The Nuclear Fist]

I really don't see why this is such a hard concept for everyone in this thread to grasp.

Because not everyone is capable of the sheer level of Orwellian doublethink you've got right there.

[Grenartia]

You don't care about human rights at all. I do, because I lived under a totalitarian dictatorship for a lot of my life, unlike you, so I have a frame of reference. I base my views on human rights on the Universal Declaration. You base yours on what now?

1. I'll put it this way: I subscribe to "absolute morality" of sorts. Whatever action advances the interests of the working class in its revolution is "good". Whatever action hinders it is "evil".

You're not consistent at all. You're condemning other nations for the same crimes they committed years ago that the Totalitarian North commits every day.

Because, again, I don't claim to have unwavering support for "human rights" as neoliberals define them. It's just about class interest to me. That, and that alone, is my determining factor.

The Totalitarian North has committed thousands of acts of brutality upon its own people and continues to. The fact that you just stated your open love of crime against people who don't support you or your poisonous ideology is evidence enough that you're nothing but a Fascist.

2. I support the working class. Anyone who wants to relegate us to a position akin to slavery to a parasitic capitalist class must be overcome through any means necessary. And Man-se! to anyone fighting for such ends!

1. Human rights, as listed by the Universal Declaration, IS in the interests of the working class. Therefore, the government of North Korea, as a consistent violator of human rights, is, by your definition, evil.

2. However, you're perfectly fine with anybody who would relegate us to a position of slavery to the ruling class in a Communist system, right?

Is your argument that just because you have democratic in your title, you are officially a democratic country? This is certainly not the case. Far from the truth.

Didn't say as much, but in this case, it's accurate.

But fine, if you insist. I support The-Korea-That-Claims-to-Support-The-Interests-Of-The-Working-Class-And-Fights-Imperialism-But Doesn't-Really-Do-So and fuck What-I-Claim-Is-The-Occupied-Anti-Workers-Parasitic-Capitalist-Korea's government, but have no proof of it as such. Just takes a lot longer to say as much.

There. I fixed that post for you. You're welcome.

[Costa Fiero]

Of people? Of course.

Being a communist however, means you share the aims and goals of such gentlemen as Vladimir Lenin, Leon Trotsky, Joseph Stalin, Mao Zedong, etc.

After the suffering millions of people in Eastern Europe went through, being a communist is almost as egregious as Neo-Nazism.

Replace people with "communists" and you get the idea. There are so many "brands" of communism, it's almost ironic to think that they were all single-party states.

Also, think of communism as a religion like Christianity. They all believe the same thing and ultimately, their concepts of heaven or utopia are exactly the same. But what they believe is right is different to how others believe it. Methodists have different beliefs to Anglicans as to Catholics as to Baptists. The same thing goes with communism. Stalinists have different beliefs to Marxists who have different beliefs to Leninists as to Trostkyists. And there is usually a heated debate as to which brand of communism is best, much like there was (and still is) some debate over which version of Christianity is best.

[Keronians]

Do you, or do you not, believe in a market economy? Doesn't matter if it's capitalist or socialist. Do you believe in a market economy?

If it's one involving trade between industries in which workers control the means of production, without usury, I don't have a problem with it.

So would you be in favour of a market socialist country? Think co-ops.

[Dokuritsu Nippon]

Ehh... I have some ideas. Not really keen on discussing them with non-vanguards though.

Excuse me, unrelated question but why does your name translate to 'independent Japan'.

I find myself curious why anyone support either Korea would have such a name.

Longish story, but honestly I need a diversion from some of this other stuff for sake of my sanity.

I'd originally taken Japanese language courses at my university, and, on my initial nation I created on this site, I stuck with a Japanese theme accordingly. At the time I was more of a general "Marxist" than a Juche supporter per se (the latter coming through reading of Lenin, Mao, and Kim at rather long length). As my ideology started to drift, I made a flag, based off the Showa Japanese one, but with a hammer and sickle. In time, this got replaced by a hammer-sickle-and-paintbrush.

That account was lost, and I made this one in turn. Wanting to make the name fit the flag I'd already made, I stuck with Japanese as a language - Dokuritsu being the closest Japanese term I could think of in connotation to the concept of "Juche".

[Lerro]

Of people? Of course.

Being a communist however, means you share the aims and goals of such gentlemen as Vladimir Lenin, Leon Trotsky, Joseph Stalin, Mao Zedong, etc.

After the suffering millions of people in Eastern Europe went through, being a communist is almost as egregious as Neo-Nazism.

Replace people with "communists" and you get the idea. There are so many "brands" of communism, it's almost ironic to think that they were all single-party states.

Also, think of communism as a religion like Christianity. They all believe the same thing and ultimately, their concepts of heaven or utopia are exactly the same. But what they believe is right is different to how others believe it. Methodists have different beliefs to Anglicans as to Catholics as to Baptists. The same thing goes with communism. Stalinists have different beliefs to Marxists who have different beliefs to Leninists as to Trostkyists. And there is usually a heated debate as to which brand of communism is best, much like there was (and still is) some debate over which version of Christianity is best.

The difference is is that all communist variants and regimes kill. I can't imagine a normal person caring about the details they squabble over.

[Costa Fiero]

The difference is is that all communist variants and regimes kill. I can't imagine a normal person caring about the details they squabble over.

The killing is more or less down to the actual politicians and people that run said countries than the actual system. The Great Famines in China and North Korea were down to a mix of bad economic policies and weather conditions rather than the failure of communism as an ideology. The one in China was more or less the fault of the politicians telling people to make steel rather than tend the crops which were then neglected and failed.

[Chulainan]

Excuse me, unrelated question but why does your name translate to 'independent Japan'.

I find myself curious why anyone support either Korea would have such a name.

Longish story, but honestly I need a diversion from some of this other stuff for sake of my sanity.

I'd originally taken Japanese language courses at my university, and, on my initial nation I created on this site, I stuck with a Japanese theme accordingly. At the time I was more of a general "Marxist" than a Juche supporter per se (the latter coming through reading of Lenin, Mao, and Kim at rather long length). As my ideology started to drift, I made a flag, based off the Showa Japanese one, but with a hammer and sickle. In time, this got replaced by a hammer-sickle-and-paintbrush.

That account was lost, and I made this one in turn. Wanting to make the name fit the flag I'd already made, I stuck with Japanese as a language - Dokuritsu being the closest Japanese term I could think of in connotation to the concept of "Juche".

Fair enough, thank you for your time.

[Dokuritsu Nippon]

If it's one involving trade between industries in which workers control the means of production, without usury, I don't have a problem with it.

So would you be in favour of a market socialist country? Think co-ops.

I wouldn't be opposed, if it fit the material conditions of a given nation.

Though I don't really think they hold the best chance of organizing a military campaign against imperialism.

Actually, I'll clarify to everyone, as there seems to be some contention on this point: The end goal of Marxism of essentially all tendencies, is a classless, stateless society. We just have to destroy the imperialist system before we get there. And accordingly, anyone fighting imperialism is effectively our ally, at least for present.

[Arumdaum]

Replace people with "communists" and you get the idea. There are so many "brands" of communism, it's almost ironic to think that they were all single-party states.

Also, think of communism as a religion like Christianity. They all believe the same thing and ultimately, their concepts of heaven or utopia are exactly the same. But what they believe is right is different to how others believe it. Methodists have different beliefs to Anglicans as to Catholics as to Baptists. The same thing goes with communism. Stalinists have different beliefs to Marxists who have different beliefs to Leninists as to Trostkyists. And there is usually a heated debate as to which brand of communism is best, much like there was (and still is) some debate over which version of Christianity is best.

The difference is is that all communist variants and regimes kill. I can't imagine a normal person caring about the details they squabble over.

It's all the difference that separate hippie communes from the USSR.

[Wikkiwallana]

Yet you claim to know all about how it truly operates.

If it weren't for O-bomb-ya preventing US passport holders from getting student visas to Democratic Korea, I'd be there now.

FYI, mods have banned nicknames for politicians until the election is over.

[Lerro]

The difference is is that all communist variants and regimes kill. I can't imagine a normal person caring about the details they squabble over.

The killing is more or less down to the actual politicians and people that run said countries than the actual system. The Great Famines in China and North Korea were down to a mix of bad economic policies and weather conditions rather than the failure of communism as an ideology. The one in China was more or less the fault of the politicians telling people to make steel rather than tend the crops which were then neglected and failed.

Bad economic policies? That's right. Those were communist policies.

There are certainly bad weather conditions in South Korea from time to time, and I don't recall any famines.

[Arumdaum]

The difference is is that all communist variants and regimes kill. I can't imagine a normal person caring about the details they squabble over.

The killing is more or less down to the actual politicians and people that run said countries than the actual system. The Great Famines in China and North Korea were down to a mix of bad economic policies and weather conditions rather than the failure of communism as an ideology. The one in China was more or less the fault of the politicians telling people to make steel rather than tend the crops which were then neglected and failed.

Also how the sparrow was labeled a "pest".

That was one of the stupidest things ever.

[Arumdaum]

The killing is more or less down to the actual politicians and people that run said countries than the actual system. The Great Famines in China and North Korea were down to a mix of bad economic policies and weather conditions rather than the failure of communism as an ideology. The one in China was more or less the fault of the politicians telling people to make steel rather than tend the crops which were then neglected and failed.

Bad economic policies? That's right. Those were communist policies.

There are certainly bad weather conditions in South Korea from time to time, and I don't recall any famines.

Policy made by a communist =/= communist policy.

[Ganos Lao]

Actually, I'll clarify to everyone, as there seems to be some contention on this point: The end goal of Marxism of essentially all tendencies, is a classless, stateless society. We just have to destroy the imperialist system before we get there. And accordingly, anyone fighting imperialism is effectively our ally, at least for present.

I don't think that Karl Marx advocated trimming our hair in accordance with the "Socialist lifestyle".

Wouldn't a true worker's paradise not care about such things?

And what effort has North Korea actually made in achieving such a goal, especially since North Korea has largely forsaken Marxism? Juche became the official state ideology, replacing Marxism-Leninism, when the country adopted a new constitution in 1972.