North Korea to reform economy, abandon "military first"

[Lerro]

The difference is is that all communist variants and regimes kill. I can't imagine a normal person caring about the details they squabble over.

It's all the difference that separate hippie communes from the USSR.

Hippie communes aren't sovereign states. If your ideology begins to collapse when a few thousand people are added, it's ineffective.

[Grenartia]

I'm not disputing your ideological subscriptions (to each their own), rather, the issue lies with what you have pegged as "good" and "evil".
North Korea is neither good, nor evil. It is a state, which, like all others, cannot be simplified to something as black-and-white as your moral perceptions.

It supports my class interests, so I in turn support it. *shrugs*

I really don't see why this is such a hard concept for everyone in this thread to grasp.

Because it doesn't make any sense at all. The people of North Korea live in the 3rd world, while Kim Jong-Il and presumably his father lived (and I can only assume Kim Jong-Un does as well) better than I, a member of the working class in a capitalist state, do. If anything the North Korean people are WAAY more enslaved than you could ever imagine me to be in the system I live in.

I see you hate yourself an awful lot then.

I *support* the workers.

By advocating a system where they're enslaved to a communist government (not saying Communism is an ideology that inherently denies the rights of the people, but the way the USSR went about it, and therefore, every state they have set up, does).

I support the working class. Anyone who wants to relegate us to a position akin to slavery

You support North Korea. You shouldn't be talking like this.

In North Korea, you can't even let your hair grow the way you like it. Yet it's where the worker is truly free, eh?

Dontcha know? Freedom of expression hurts the worker. [/total fucking sarcasm, if anybody reading this didn't already know]

[Caninope]

I'll put it this way: I subscribe to "absolute morality" of sorts. Whatever action advances the interests of the working class in its revolution is "good". Whatever action hinders it is "evil".

1. Why do you subscribe to the idea of an absolute good?
2. Why do you subscribe to this form as opposed to, say, utilitarianism.
3. Who is "working class"?

[Dokuritsu Nippon]

Actually, I'll clarify to everyone, as there seems to be some contention on this point: The end goal of Marxism of essentially all tendencies, is a classless, stateless society. We just have to destroy the imperialist system before we get there. And accordingly, anyone fighting imperialism is effectively our ally, at least for present.

I don't think that Karl Marx advocated trimming our hair in accordance with the "Socialist lifestyle".

Wouldn't a true worker's paradise not care about such things?

I don't particularly care about that one way or another. *shrugs*

Most of those sort of things are along the lines of trying to preserve Korean culture, and thus are applicable only to their nation's historical and material conditions. There wouldn't be much point in emulating such in non-Korean nations unless it also fit their cultural and material conditions.

[Arumdaum]

It's all the difference that separate hippie communes from the USSR.

Hippie communes aren't sovereign states. If your ideology begins to collapse when a few thousand people are added, it's ineffective.

Communism advocates statelessness.

A society or community can't be "communist" if it's a state.

[Lerro]

Bad economic policies? That's right. Those were communist policies.

There are certainly bad weather conditions in South Korea from time to time, and I don't recall any famines.

Policy made by a communist =/= communist policy.

Then what would be an example of a communist policy? If collectivization of agriculture isn't communistic, what is?

[Caninope]

I don't think that Karl Marx advocated trimming our hair in accordance with the "Socialist lifestyle".

Wouldn't a true worker's paradise not care about such things?

I don't particularly care about that one way or another. *shrugs*

Most of those sort of things are along the lines of trying to preserve Korean culture, and thus are applicable only to their nation's historical and material conditions. There wouldn't be much point in emulating such in non-Korean nations unless it also fit their cultural and material conditions.

Is the point of communism to unite the working class of the world? Doesn't communism reject the idea of "nations"?

[Unicario]

Excuse me, unrelated question but why does your name translate to 'independent Japan'.

I find myself curious why anyone support either Korea would have such a name.

Longish story, but honestly I need a diversion from some of this other stuff for sake of my sanity.

I'd originally taken Japanese language courses at my university, and, on my initial nation I created on this site, I stuck with a Japanese theme accordingly. At the time I was more of a general "Marxist" than a Juche supporter per se (the latter coming through reading of Lenin, Mao, and Kim at rather long length). As my ideology started to drift, I made a flag, based off the Showa Japanese one, but with a hammer and sickle. In time, this got replaced by a hammer-sickle-and-paintbrush.

That account was lost, and I made this one in turn. Wanting to make the name fit the flag I'd already made, I stuck with Japanese as a language - Dokuritsu being the closest Japanese term I could think of in connotation to the concept of "Juche".

Seeing you paint the Empire-born-from-Kami in a communist way is disturbing and absolutely horrible.

[Lerro]

Hippie communes aren't sovereign states. If your ideology begins to collapse when a few thousand people are added, it's ineffective.

Communism advocates statelessness.

A society or community can't be "communist" if it's a state.

But no communist regime in history has been stateless. I thought a state was allowed for a transitional period?

[Costa Fiero]

Bad economic policies? That's right. Those were communist policies.

There are certainly bad weather conditions in South Korea from time to time, and I don't recall any famines.

As someone else already pointed out, bad economic polices aren't inherent to communist states. Famines can occur anywhere at any time and are usually in places prone to droughts and adverse weather conditions anyway.

Not that I am a communist in any way. I am an avowed centrist so I'm going to end up being labelled a fascist from a certain misguided member of this...err....."discussion".

[Dokuritsu Nippon]

I don't particularly care about that one way or another. *shrugs*

Most of those sort of things are along the lines of trying to preserve Korean culture, and thus are applicable only to their nation's historical and material conditions. There wouldn't be much point in emulating such in non-Korean nations unless it also fit their cultural and material conditions.

Is the point of communism to unite the working class of the world? Doesn't communism reject the idea of "nations"?

AFTER Capitalism is dismantled, not before. Well, unless you're in a mansion in Mexico...

[Arumdaum]

Policy made by a communist =/= communist policy.

Then what would be an example of a communist policy? If collectivization of agriculture isn't communistic, what is?

Disestablishing the state.

Abolishing money.

Establish classlessness.

Structure society upon the common ownership of the means of production.

That's about it.

Nothing else can really be described as "communist".

You previously claimed that telling people to make steel instead of crops was communist. I said it wasn't.

[The Nuclear Fist]

But no communist regime in history has been stateless. I thought a state was allowed for a transitional period?

Transitional states would not be classified Communist. Learn about what you're going to talk about first. A Communist nation, or rather internation, is by definition stateless.

[Dokuritsu Nippon]

Longish story, but honestly I need a diversion from some of this other stuff for sake of my sanity.

I'd originally taken Japanese language courses at my university, and, on my initial nation I created on this site, I stuck with a Japanese theme accordingly. At the time I was more of a general "Marxist" than a Juche supporter per se (the latter coming through reading of Lenin, Mao, and Kim at rather long length). As my ideology started to drift, I made a flag, based off the Showa Japanese one, but with a hammer and sickle. In time, this got replaced by a hammer-sickle-and-paintbrush.

That account was lost, and I made this one in turn. Wanting to make the name fit the flag I'd already made, I stuck with Japanese as a language - Dokuritsu being the closest Japanese term I could think of in connotation to the concept of "Juche".

Seeing you paint the Empire-born-from-Kami in a communist way is disturbing and absolutely horrible.

You know the Japanese Imperial Line has Korean blood in it if you go back far enough, right?

[Ganos Lao]

Most of those sort of things are along the lines of trying to preserve Korean culture, and thus are applicable only to their nation's historical and material conditions. There wouldn't be much point in emulating such in non-Korean nations unless it also fit their cultural and material conditions.

One of my good friends is a Korean. I have never heard her tell me that her culture mandates a specific way of trimming one's hair.

From what I've read, it seems like some belief that long hair = Western domination.

[Lerro]

Bad economic policies? That's right. Those were communist policies.

There are certainly bad weather conditions in South Korea from time to time, and I don't recall any famines.

As someone else already pointed out, bad economic polices aren't inherent to communist states. Famines can occur anywhere at any time and are usually in places prone to droughts and adverse weather conditions anyway.

Not that I am a communist in any way. I am an avowed centrist so I'm going to end up being labelled a fascist from a certain misguided member of this...err....."discussion".

Not in the developed world they can't.

[Costa Fiero]

But no communist regime in history has been stateless. I thought a state was allowed for a transitional period?

That was the theory. In practice, it didn't turn out that way. Hell, they even had special lanes and limousines in Moscow specifically reserved for members of the Politburo.

[Ganos Lao]

Seeing you paint the Empire-born-from-Kami in a communist way is disturbing and absolutely horrible.

You know the Japanese Imperial Line has Korean blood in it if you go back far enough, right?

Speaking of Imperial Japan, you do know that the rhetoric the DPRK uses about the Eternal Leader and all that is reminiscent of the rhetoric used to describe Hirohito pre-1945, right?

[Arumdaum]

Communism advocates statelessness.

A society or community can't be "communist" if it's a state.

But no communist regime in history has been stateless. I thought a state was allowed for a transitional period?

Well, obviously, you can't be stateless with a regime. :|

Also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchist_Catalonia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Territory

A transitional state still wouldn't be communist until it reached communism either.

[Zaharawi]

Why would you want to? You have to be escorted the whole time and there's nothing to do.

They said the same thing 15 years ago about china.
Beijing was awesome and I'll be honest I'd love to see Pyongyang and meet people who for most of their lives have been shut away. Who knows could meet a nice girl there?

This is what always frigten me when western people come to my country, they either want the oil, or just want to meet some beautiful ladies. lol

[Lerro]

Then what would be an example of a communist policy? If collectivization of agriculture isn't communistic, what is?

Disestablishing the state.

Abolishing money.

Establish classlessness.

Structure society upon the common ownership of the means of production.

That's about it.

Nothing else can really be described as "communist".

You previously claimed that telling people to make steel instead of crops was communist. I said it wasn't.

I said that collectivizing agriculture was communistic.

Since no communist (or "communist" if you prefer) government has ever done the things you said, I presume that your position is that communism has never existed.

[Dokuritsu Nippon]

Most of those sort of things are along the lines of trying to preserve Korean culture, and thus are applicable only to their nation's historical and material conditions. There wouldn't be much point in emulating such in non-Korean nations unless it also fit their cultural and material conditions.

One of my good friends is a Korean. I have never heard her tell me that her culture mandates a specific way of trimming one's hair.

From what I've read, it seems like some belief that long hair = Western domination.

Well, the latter is what I was getting at really. They're trying to preserve their culture against cultural imperialism. Thus it's an issue particular to their culture, not communism, and I wouldn't advocate it per se in another nation.

[Ganos Lao]

One of my good friends is a Korean. I have never heard her tell me that her culture mandates a specific way of trimming one's hair.

From what I've read, it seems like some belief that long hair = Western domination.

Well, the latter is what I was getting at really. They're trying to preserve their culture against cultural imperialism. Thus it's an issue particular to their culture, not communism, and I wouldn't advocate it per se in another nation.

How exactly does long hair imply cultural imperialism is in effect?

[Dokuritsu Nippon]

You know the Japanese Imperial Line has Korean blood in it if you go back far enough, right?

Speaking of Imperial Japan, you do know that the rhetoric the DPRK uses about the Eternal Leader and all that is reminiscent of the rhetoric used to describe Hirohito pre-1945, right?

Hirohito was titled "Suryong" (historically a Korean tribal chieftain, if we're getting into linguistics? News to me.

[Lerro]

But no communist regime in history has been stateless. I thought a state was allowed for a transitional period?

Well, obviously, you can't be stateless with a regime. :|

Also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchist_Catalonia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Territory

A transitional state still wouldn't be communist until it reached communism either.

"Revolutionary Catalonia (July 21, 1936–February 10, 1939) was the part of Catalonia (a region in northeast Spain) controlled by the anarchist and socialist trade unions, parties and militias during the Spanish Civil War. "

If there's political control, doesn't that preclude being called anarchist?

As for Anarchist Ukraine, that was under military control.