People dropping US Citizenship

[The Richard Bastion Republic]

It is foolish for one to give up their US citizenship since the USA is the best country for a citizen to live in compared to all others. Why would someone want to live in another country (in real life)?

[New Rogernomics]

It is foolish for one to give up their US citizenship since the USA is the best country for a citizen to live in compared to all others. Why would someone want to live in another country (in real life)?

Lifestyle, money, jobs, romance, universal healthcare, education...list goes on.

[Divair]

It is foolish for one to give up their US citizenship since the USA is the best country for a citizen to live in compared to all others. Why would someone want to live in another country (in real life)?

Lifestyle, money, jobs, romance, universal healthcare, education...list goes on.

Politics, environment, economic situation, language, just to keep adding to the list.

[Cromarty]

the USA is the best country for a citizen to live in compared to all others.

[Laerod]

It is foolish for one to give up their US citizenship since the USA is the best country for a citizen to live in compared to all others. Why would someone want to live in another country (in real life)?

Because other countries are awesome too?

[Divair]

It is foolish for one to give up their US citizenship since the USA is the best country for a citizen to live in compared to all others. Why would someone want to live in another country (in real life)?

Because other countries are awesome too?

Or awesomer. Depends on what you're looking for in a country.

[NERVUN]

It is foolish for one to give up their US citizenship since the USA is the best country for a citizen to live in compared to all others. Why would someone want to live in another country (in real life)?

Because I happen to like it here in Japan over the US?

Because my wife is from Japan and we decided that, all things considered such as job security, education, medical care and such like, Japan is a better place to raise out children?

Lots of reasons.

[Norstal]

It is foolish for one to give up their US citizenship since the USA is the best country for a citizen to live in compared to all others. Why would someone want to live in another country (in real life)?

USA is the best country to live? Where is that national healthcare that so many other countries have?

[The Richard Bastion Republic]

It is foolish for one to give up their US citizenship since the USA is the best country for a citizen to live in compared to all others. Why would someone want to live in another country (in real life)?

Because I happen to like it here in Japan over the US?

Because my wife is from Japan and we decided that, all things considered such as job security, education, medical care and such like, Japan is a better place to raise out children?

Lots of reasons.

But Japan is more crowded (pop density is too high) than America, its GDP is lower and it is lower on the HDI according to GapMinder. Also, America is much safer from foreign invasion because of its military might. Japan is closer to China and North Korea. America also has bigger streets while the streets in Japan are small and crowded. People in Japan have to work harder just to make a mediocre living, and have an even higher cost of living.

But you are still entitled to your own opinions.

[NERVUN]

Because I happen to like it here in Japan over the US?

Because my wife is from Japan and we decided that, all things considered such as job security, education, medical care and such like, Japan is a better place to raise out children?

Lots of reasons.

But Japan is more crowded (pop density is too high) than America, its GDP is lower and it is lower on the HDI according to GapMinder. Also, America is much safer from foreign invasion because of its military might. Japan is closer to China and North Korea. America also has bigger streets while the streets in Japan are small and crowded. People in Japan have to work harder just to make a mediocre living, and have an even higher cost of living.

1. Not where I live. 2. Japan is a far safer place to live, I don't fear being shot, I don't have to worry about leaving a window open at night, etc. I have to worry about earthquakes, but I had to worry about them in Nevada too. Yes, Japanese streets are not as wide, Japanese drivers also are not consumed with roadrage either.

Japan also has universal healthcare, the longest lifespan on the planet, and is just more politer than America. It's also cleaner.

[Norstal]

Because I happen to like it here in Japan over the US?

Because my wife is from Japan and we decided that, all things considered such as job security, education, medical care and such like, Japan is a better place to raise out children?

Lots of reasons.

But Japan is more crowded (pop density is too high) than America,

Not in rural areas, no.

its GDP is lower and it is lower on the HDI according to GapMinder.

For individual cases, those statistics are inadequate.

Also, America is much safer from foreign invasion because of its military might. Japan is closer to China and North Korea.

Oh come on. Chinese people couldn't make a war if they tried to; it's a house of cards. North Korea can only attack people with sticks.

America also has bigger streets while the streets in Japan are small and crowded.

They also have public transportation that's better than ours.

People in Japan have to work harder just to make a mediocre living,

Not true for all.

and have an even higher cost of living.

Yeah, so does New York.

[Risottia]

It is foolish for one to give up their US citizenship since the USA is the best country for a citizen to live in compared to all others. Why would someone want to live in another country (in real life)?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... ment_Index
Norway and Australia care to disagree here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... justed_HDI
And Norway, Australia, Sweden, Netherlands, Iceland, Ireland, Germany, Denmark, Switzerland, Slovenia, Finland, Canada, Czech R., Austria, Belgium, France, Spain, Luxembourg, UK, Slovakia, Israel and Italy care to disagree here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... expectancy
Let's not even mention this.

[No Water No Moon]

Then I'm sure you can point to actual hard data as opposed to mere speculation...

I'll wait.

Are denying the 3.8% increase on investment income that is likely to come in in the next financial year UNLESS an extension is granted for people over the $250,000 bracket?

Are you denying the tea party 'taxed enough already' rhetoric even happened?

Are you claiming that (especially wealthy) Americans have NOT complained about high tax burdens under the current administration (whether or not those complaints are valid)?

Those things are real things. They really exist.

Is that why you left the UK, higher taxes?

No. As I said - I honestly don't get why you keep dragging my movement from the UK into this - the UK has an entirely different system to the US system, and what tax you have to pay 'back home'. Since I am NEVER resident in the UK, and I work and pay tax in the US, and do not take money back into the UK - I have no tax burden in the UK.

My situation is totally different, as I thought I'd already explained quite clearly.

Stating, as you did, that any other reason is not likely and not applicable, yes, it was. The fact is, you're speculating and I'm calling you on it. Show proof.

I've suggested evidence. If you're looking for 'proof', you're going to be disappointed.

Right, because all politicians are just in it for the money and NEVER, EVER about anything else.

Not the way it works - I'm not claiming it's 'never, ever' about anything else, I'm saying that unless it's voluntary - there is a financial component. You haven't shown that any of those 'political' choices were voluntary - therefore it's safe to assume there are financial considerations.

Please, you're better than that. Your WSJ blog also just quotes "the experts" who the fuck are they and were are they getting their data?

No point raging at me about it - I cited a source. If you think they need to be more rigorous in THEIR citations, feel free to take it up with the WSJ.

If you can link to a better source, that claims the opposite - go ahead.

I also note that the blog states her reason was "in order to be closer to her longtime life partner, Peter Cervinka, as well as her friends and family."

Indeed, that is what she claimed. On the other hand, she has a troubled history vis-a-vis being entirely honest and above-board about taxes.

But that's NOT what you said. You said:

Most likely reason is to avoid taxes, the same reason so many wealthy Americans have their fortunes offshore, etc. If the person has a lot of money, this is almost certainly the reason they are doing it, no matter what other excuse they give.

There are possibly a few who are - for example - going to live in the Middle East, where being a US citizen might be a handicap... but then, just being 'American' (with or without citizenship) would probably mark them as a target, so it seems like an unconvincing reason.

It's very unlikely that any of the other reasons people are throwing around are realistic for almost anyone. It's not because 'America is going to collapse' and it's not because 'America has a horrible human rights record'.

Emphasis mine.

You DIDN'T say "There's some financial reasons", you didn't say "financial reasons more likely than not to factor into the decision", nor did you say "financial motivations feature(d) sic. prominently" in their decision; you made a blanket statement.

There are more reasons than just tax avoidance and unless you're attempting to claim that all Americans who are dumping their citizenship are millionaires or billionaires...

First - pet peeve - you can't cite and 'correct' text - and then follow that with 'sic'. If you quote me verbatim, and believe that there is an error in my text which you choose to leave unaltered, for accuracy - you can claim sic erat scriptum to show that you didn't misquote me, and the 'errors' were in my text, not your transcription.

In this case, your 'correction' is wrong - the lack of tense agreement in my post is intentional - there WERE other reasons, but financial considerations DO feature prominently.

Second - The part you just quoted me saying... says there are more reasons than just tax avoidance, so saying "...There are more reasons than just tax avoidance..." as though it were somehow a rebuttal to what you were responding to... just doesn't work.

So, third - "...Most likely reason is to avoid taxes, the same reason so many wealthy Americans have their fortunes offshore, etc. If the person has a lot of money, this is almost certainly the reason they are doing it, no matter what other excuse they give..."

That still seems like a fair assumption. Wealthy Americans using tax-loopholes, offshoring, etc is not conjecture on my part - it's a real, recognized and prominent phenomenon. Given the way the US tax system works, financially-motivated surrender of citizenship is entirely consistent with what else already happens.

[No Water No Moon]

It is foolish for one to give up their US citizenship since the USA is the best country for a citizen to live in compared to all others.

Having lived in other countries, I think that's an insular view and not necessarily an objective reflection of reality.

[Unita Teccon Olympia Enclave]

Well when the economy drops big time and companies are losing people left and right panic issued amongst famous people in such areas of wealth so they jump ship.

[The UK in Exile]

It is foolish for one to give up their US citizenship since the USA is the best country for a citizen to live in compared to all others. Why would someone want to live in another country (in real life)?

free health care.

[The UK in Exile]

But Japan is more crowded (pop density is too high) than America, its GDP is lower and it is lower on the HDI according to GapMinder. Also, America is much safer from foreign invasion because of its military might. Japan is closer to China and North Korea. America also has bigger streets while the streets in Japan are small and crowded. People in Japan have to work harder just to make a mediocre living, and have an even higher cost of living.

1. Not where I live. 2. Japan is a far safer place to live, I don't fear being shot, I don't have to worry about leaving a window open at night, etc. I have to worry about earthquakes, but I had to worry about them in Nevada too. Yes, Japanese streets are not as wide, Japanese drivers also are not consumed with roadrage either.

Japan also has universal healthcare, the longest lifespan on the planet, and is just more politer than America. It's also cleaner.

plus they have Mr donuts.

[The Emerald Legion]

source

It seems that as of late a lot of people have begun dropping their citizenships, the latest in this trend is Denise Rich. I first heard about this in May with Facebook Co-Founder Eduardo Saverin dropping his US citizenship. Many people think it has economic motivations (including me) but Denise Rich claims that she merely wishes to spend more time in Europe, but how would being a US citizen stop you from doing so? Another fact that I found interesting from the IRS was that the amount of people turning in their passports has gone up 700% since 2008 from a mere 200+ to now nearly 1,800. One thing that I thought about was how dangerous it can be to give up your US citizenship, so why would you do so? I mean without a citizenship, you can be tossed in Guantanamo Bay and be tortured and killed with no trial or anything of the sorts. You have no right to free-speech or any of the rights guaranteed to you as a US Citizen. So why do you think that people are giving up their US citizenship NS? Is it purely for economic reasons? are people scared that the US may collapse soon so they are cutting their ties before it goes under? or are they really doing it for their own various purposes? how do you feel about this NSGers? would you give up your US citizenship (let's assume for the sake of argument that you do have one)?

I think it is purely for economic reasons with perhaps a little fear on the side of things. In my opinion if you were afraid of a collapsing USA, why would you still reside in the country? wouldn't you leave? I also think that US citizenship wouldn't constrict you in any way internationally, in fact it may help you if you are ever taken hostage or something. To be honest, as a patriot, it makes me kind of angry to see people give up their citizenship seeing how many people in this country would love to have US citizenship, it also makes me angry that anyone would willingly give up any ties to America simply because they want a bit more money. I would never ever give up my US citizenship, I followed the NDAA, SOPA, PIPA, ACTA and the PATRIOT Act, I know that my rights just as a US citizen are being stripped let alone if I weren't to have one at all, it sends chills up my spine thinking how the government could abuse me.

I'd drop my US citizenship if I ever actually managed to reach the point in japanese immigration where you can become a naturalized citizen. But first I need some sort of skill that's marketable in japan.

[Empire of Vlissingen]

You don't have to drop your US citizenship or any other to avoid to paying taxes.
Just take a look at what Mitt Romney did with his bank account on the Cayman Isles.
And US has a lot of tax loopholes.

And in most nations you can have dual citizenship so it's not Necessary.

[Dyakovo]

I mean without a citizenship, you can be tossed in Guantanamo Bay and be tortured and killed with no trial or anything of the sorts.

Since the NDAA, citizens can be chucked in Gitmo too.

Anyway, 75% exit tax for millionaires, 95% exit tax for billionaires, problem solved.

The NDAA didn't change anything.

[Cabra West]

I'm not sure if this has been asked before, but what does citizenship have to do with taxes?

Generally, as far as I'm aware, people pay taxes where they live and work, not where their passport says.
In my case, I'm a German citizen living and working in Ireland, I haven't paid taxes to Germany since I left, but I have paid taxes in Ireland, in line with the law.
So, while I'm planning to eventually obtain Irish citizenship (soon as I've got that much money to spare), the only reason for me doing that will be to be able to vote for the politicians that will get to make decisions directly affecting me and my work here. Certainly not for tax reasons.

And my second question, surely people can only give up one citizenship if they have another one they can take?
I seem to remember that it's international law that no person can ever be without citizenship?
Yes, I know, there are cases where a country ceases to exist resulting in confusion and problems with citizenship, but outside such situation, surely it's not possible to just drop whatever citizenship you're holding and just be without?
I mean, how on earth would you travel anywhere to begin with?

[Wallonochia]

I'm not sure if this has been asked before, but what does citizenship have to do with taxes?

Generally, as far as I'm aware, people pay taxes where they live and work, not where their passport says.
In my case, I'm a German citizen living and working in Ireland, I haven't paid taxes to Germany since I left, but I have paid taxes in Ireland, in line with the law.
So, while I'm planning to eventually obtain Irish citizenship (soon as I've got that much money to spare), the only reason for me doing that will be to be able to vote for the politicians that will get to make decisions directly affecting me and my work here. Certainly not for tax reasons.

And my second question, surely people can only give up one citizenship if they have another one they can take?
I seem to remember that it's international law that no person can ever be without citizenship?
Yes, I know, there are cases where a country ceases to exist resulting in confusion and problems with citizenship, but outside such situation, surely it's not possible to just drop whatever citizenship you're holding and just be without?
I mean, how on earth would you travel anywhere to begin with?

The US taxes its citizens that make over something like $80,000 a year, regardless of where they live or where that income comes from. As far as I'm aware it's the only country that does this. I'm a US citizen living in France and I have to declare my earnings and assets to the IRS every year or else I'll get a huge fine. I don't make anywhere near $80k nor will I ever in my life so it's not really an issue for me.

The US is also one of the few countries that allows its citizens to give up their citizenship without being a citizen of another state. They do let you know that it's going to cause you problems but they still let you do it. This guy, for example, did it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Gogulski

[Cabra West]

The US taxes its citizens that make over something like $80,000 a year, regardless of where they live or where that income comes from. As far as I'm aware it's the only country that does this. I'm a US citizen living in France and I have to declare my earnings and assets to the IRS every year or else I'll get a huge fine. I don't make anywhere near $80k nor will I ever in my life so it's not really an issue for me.

The US is also one of the few countries that allows its citizens to give up their citizenship without being a citizen of another state. They do let you know that it's going to cause you problems but they still let you do it. This guy, for example, did it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Gogulski

Thanks!
I honestly didn't know about either of this... pretty US-specific issue, really.
Out of interest, how would the US go about fining someone who is technically not inside their jurisdiction?

[Wallonochia]

Thanks!
I honestly didn't know about either of this... pretty US-specific issue, really.
Out of interest, how would the US go about fining someone who is technically not inside their jurisdiction?

They simply assess you the fine and if you don't pay it there can be criminal penalties, so the next time you go back to the States you may end up getting picked up by the police at the airport. If you never intend on going back to the States I suppose it wouldn't be a problem, but personally I'd like to go home and visit the family every now and again and at least have the option open of moving back to the States if I ever decide I want to.

[Farnhamia]

Thanks!
I honestly didn't know about either of this... pretty US-specific issue, really.
Out of interest, how would the US go about fining someone who is technically not inside their jurisdiction?

They simply assess you the fine and if you don't pay it there can be criminal penalties, so the next time you go back to the States you may end up getting picked up by the police at the airport. If you never intend on going back to the States I suppose it wouldn't be a problem, but personally I'd like to go home and visit the family every now and again and at least have the option open of moving back to the States if I ever decide I want to.

Which is nothing compared to what happens when you post in a thread that's been dead since July.