People dropping US Citizenship

[NERVUN]

As someone who despises the US, I'd give up my citizenship, were I able to leave the country. But it really isn't that easy, only the rich can afford to do so.

It's only hard to leave the country if you are trying to move to another developed country.

Getting resident status in China is quite easy if you are willing to put up with Chinese school administrators and live in a minor city. I never looked into getting citizenship, so I don't know how difficult that is. I imagine it's not that easy, but you can avoid US taxes just by having legal residence.

No, you can't.

You're stuck with them even if your tax home is in another country and you have residence there.

That said, the exception is somewhere around $100k or thereabouts.

[Nazi Flower Power]

It's only hard to leave the country if you are trying to move to another developed country.

Getting resident status in China is quite easy if you are willing to put up with Chinese school administrators and live in a minor city. I never looked into getting citizenship, so I don't know how difficult that is. I imagine it's not that easy, but you can avoid US taxes just by having legal residence.

No, you can't.

You're stuck with them even if your tax home is in another country and you have residence there.

That said, the exception is somewhere around $100k or thereabouts.

You don't make $100K in China as a general thing. Hence, you can avoid US taxes.

[NERVUN]

Really? Let's go down the path then, the UK did not recognize dual citizenship for quite some time, so you, who has immigrated to the US, decides to naturalize for oh... whatever reason (You know, family, jobs, wanting a voice and vote in the country you reside in so you're not just paying taxes), would have needed to drop British citizenship a few decades ago... But of course, such reasoning is "very unlikely" and not "realistic for almost anyone". And of course all American ex-pats are wealthy SOBs too.

Edit: So, yeah, it's not 'likely' that a person might get a job with a foreign government of such stature that they would be required to take that nation's citizenship and drop the other. It's not likely that they may feel closer ties with a new nation and wish to take citizenship (Which is just funny given that's what Americans expect immigrants into the US to DO) in order to vote, hold office, or what not, it's not likely that a person might have been American at birth due to an American parent, but having spent all their lives in another country have no wish to maintain US citizenship with some of the other strings that come attached to it (Like having to register for selective service), nope. Such things are not realistic, it's all about taxes.

Well? When my father was born in Norwich, his parents were born in Canada, so therefore, my father has dual British-Canadian citizenship. As such, because of that policy, my father could in theory be eligible for both British and/or Canadian passports. So, if we move overseas, we are more likely to move to the UK, than naught. Oh, and he was born in 1970. Whether policies are different for residents of commonwealth countries, I do not know.

The law was changed, IIRC in 1948, kinda. British citizenship is this really odd duck due to commonwealth and former colonies.

The point being though is that there are a lot of reasons to renounce citizenship. Do people do so for tax reasons, yes, I'm sure they do and it costs them a pretty penny when they do so, but given no one has bothered to ASK why people do so, it's a little silly to claim it as the most likely reason, especially given that many countries just don't recognize dual or multiple nationalities.

[GoTulsaShock]

I'm sure they're leaving because Barack Obama has been turning our economy around so much.

[NERVUN]

No, you can't.

You're stuck with them even if your tax home is in another country and you have residence there.

That said, the exception is somewhere around $100k or thereabouts.

You don't make $100K in China as a general thing. Hence, you can avoid US taxes.

Still have to report though.

And dear kamisama do I HATE having to fill out the bloody 2555.

[New Rogernomics]

I lost my Social Security number/card thingy. Not looking forward to filling in the form, holding it off till next month I think.

[Nazi Flower Power]

You don't make $100K in China as a general thing. Hence, you can avoid US taxes.

Still have to report though.

And dear kamisama do I HATE having to fill out the bloody 2555.

When I lived in China, my income was low enough that I didn't have to file a tax return; but anyway, the point is that if you don't pay taxes, then you are not supporting the US.

[No Water No Moon]

I fail to see how that even vaguely connects. Regardless of where I'm from, regardless of whether the UK has historically recognized dual-citizenship - the most likely reason for Americans (especially wealthy) Americans to renounce citizenship is likely to be financial. That's an artifact of the way America taxes resident and non-resident citizens - nothing to do with any other country and it's own citizenship rules.

Really? Let's go down the path then, the UK did not recognize dual citizenship for quite some time, so you, who has immigrated to the US, decides to naturalize for oh... whatever reason (You know, family, jobs, wanting a voice and vote in the country you reside in so you're not just paying taxes), would have needed to drop British citizenship a few decades ago... But of course, such reasoning is "very unlikely" and not "realistic for almost anyone". And of course all American ex-pats are wealthy SOBs too.

Edit: So, yeah, it's not 'likely' that a person might get a job with a foreign government of such stature that they would be required to take that nation's citizenship and drop the other. It's not likely that they may feel closer ties with a new nation and wish to take citizenship (Which is just funny given that's what Americans expect immigrants into the US to DO) in order to vote, hold office, or what not, it's not likely that a person might have been American at birth due to an American parent, but having spent all their lives in another country have no wish to maintain US citizenship with some of the other strings that come attached to it (Like having to register for selective service), nope. Such things are not realistic, it's all about taxes.

I don't know what you want me to say. People make all kinds of choices, but mostly, they are about money - one way or another.

In my own case, for example - I'm not worried about politics. I live with my family, I work, I pay taxes, etc etc.... so why is temporary residence not good enough for me? Because it is expensive to keep re-applying for work authorization, etc. Why is permanent residence not good enough? Because it costs money to keep having to spend on things like biometric data, whatever hoops the Immigration office wants me to jump through next, etc. There are a number of other massive inconveniences, too - but that's not the point.

The point is - even for me, my status is largely determined by how much money and aggravation I am willing to expend.

But most people aren't me, are they? Look at the OP and you see the former wife of a tax-evading illegal trader. Who else is high-profile, in the same boat, a Facebook co-founder who coincidentally surrenders citizenship immediately before the public offering, etc. Maybe it's financial?

What do the experts think? "Experts say the increase in expatriations comes in part because of the Internal Revenue Service’s crackdown on undeclared and untaxed foreign holdings of U.S. taxpayers.". Maybe it's financial?

I already told you I don't know why you seem to think it's about me. If anything, I'm exactly the opposite to the trend, no? It seems almost like you're trying to invalidate any point I'm trying to make, by making claims about me, personally. Which would be logically fallacious - so I'm sure that's not it.

[Ethel mermania]

No, you can't.

You're stuck with them even if your tax home is in another country and you have residence there.

That said, the exception is somewhere around $100k or thereabouts.

You don't make $100K in China as a general thing. Hence, you can avoid US taxes.

My ex-pat friends in honk kong, make a lot more than that. the benefits are very good too. They have not renounced their home citiZenship.

[NERVUN]

Still have to report though.

And dear kamisama do I HATE having to fill out the bloody 2555.

When I lived in China, my income was low enough that I didn't have to file a tax return; but anyway, the point is that if you don't pay taxes, then you are not supporting the US.

Then you violated the law.

Simple as that, you have to report, even if you claim the exclusion. But I agree with the statement that one isn't supporting the US if your income doesn't hit that.

The problem being of course that if you're getting income from other sources...

[Sanctus Pacis]

Watch those traitors cry when they need that citizenship

It's just one of the ways people want to show others "See I am all left wing and I am like super cool for denouncing the country that fed me for the past XX years!"

People moans nonstop about the negatives but they have forgot how much protection and safety they were born in. Imagine being born in north korea, or other extreme countries, gl/hf denouncing your citizenship, let alone leaving the country.

I dont understand how people can just burn the bridge they walked on.

[Frisivisia]

When I lived in China, my income was low enough that I didn't have to file a tax return; but anyway, the point is that if you don't pay taxes, then you are not supporting the US.

Then you violated the law.

Simple as that, you have to report, even if you claim the exclusion. But I agree with the statement that one isn't supporting the US if your income doesn't hit that.

The problem being of course that if you're getting income from other sources...

The first sentence of your post reminds me of Oblivion.

[NERVUN]

Really? Let's go down the path then, the UK did not recognize dual citizenship for quite some time, so you, who has immigrated to the US, decides to naturalize for oh... whatever reason (You know, family, jobs, wanting a voice and vote in the country you reside in so you're not just paying taxes), would have needed to drop British citizenship a few decades ago... But of course, such reasoning is "very unlikely" and not "realistic for almost anyone". And of course all American ex-pats are wealthy SOBs too.

Edit: So, yeah, it's not 'likely' that a person might get a job with a foreign government of such stature that they would be required to take that nation's citizenship and drop the other. It's not likely that they may feel closer ties with a new nation and wish to take citizenship (Which is just funny given that's what Americans expect immigrants into the US to DO) in order to vote, hold office, or what not, it's not likely that a person might have been American at birth due to an American parent, but having spent all their lives in another country have no wish to maintain US citizenship with some of the other strings that come attached to it (Like having to register for selective service), nope. Such things are not realistic, it's all about taxes.

I don't know what you want me to say. People make all kinds of choices, but mostly, they are about money - one way or another.

Right.

In my own case, for example - I'm not worried about politics. I live with my family, I work, I pay taxes, etc etc.... so why is temporary residence not good enough for me? Because it is expensive to keep re-applying for work authorization, etc. Why is permanent residence not good enough? Because it costs money to keep having to spend on things like biometric data, whatever hoops the Immigration office wants me to jump through next, etc. There are a number of other massive inconveniences, too - but that's not the point.

No, actually it IS the point. It's not just taxes, it can be personal, political, hell, even RELIGIOUS, and yes, it can be tax avoidance, but saying it's "most likely" taxes and any other reasoning is unlikely is silly as all hell.

The point is - even for me, my status is largely determined by how much money and aggravation I am willing to expend.

The key word here is aggrivation, there's lots of reasons for getting another nationality, but what happens when you want to and your home country doesn't allow that? You listed a number of things, so let's set you back in the UK in 1947 before the law changed... Would you be willing to state to the foreign minister "Well, yes, I left the UK because of taxes" or was it "I developed closer ties to the United States".

But most people aren't me, are they? Look at the OP and you see the former wife of a tax-evading illegal trader. Who else is high-profile, in the same boat, a Facebook co-founder who coincidentally surrenders citizenship immediately before the public offering, etc. Maybe it's financial?

Ah, yes, let's look at other people... Except that we don't. So far we have been focusing on these 'high-profile' cases. Now COULD they have renounced for tax reasons, sure. I have no doubt that it was the case... Now you want to tell me how the hell 2 people count reach N in terms of a population of 1,200?

The simple fact of the matter is that no one complies the data for why people renounce so stating "This is the reason" is sloppy.

Or to put it another way, back when the population was smaller, Valdas Adamkus who was a naturalized US citizen and who worked at the EPA for 29 years renounced and became president of Lithuania. In 2009, Michael Oren renounced to become ambassador to the United States from Israel as well as Ashraf Ghani Ahmadzai (renounced to run for president of Afghanistan), Romulo Roux (Ministry of the Panama Canal), and Robin Winkler (Ran for the parliament of Taiwan). So, hell, by your statement that one or two high profile cases somehow set the trend, I hereby conclude that the primary reason for renouncing US citizenship in the year 2009 was political.

What do the experts think? "Experts say the increase in expatriations comes in part because of the Internal Revenue Service’s crackdown on undeclared and untaxed foreign holdings of U.S. taxpayers.". Maybe it's financial?

Ah, I love that, who are these experts and why do they think this? As noted, NO ONE collects the data as to WHY people are doing this.

I already told you I don't know why you seem to think it's about me. If anything, I'm exactly the opposite to the trend, no? It seems almost like you're trying to invalidate any point I'm trying to make, by making claims about me, personally. Which would be logically fallacious - so I'm sure that's not it.

Nope, just noting that, as someone who has immigrated, it's a little silly to be making claims when one would think you'd be able to see other reasons.

[NERVUN]

Watch those traitors cry when they need that citizenship

It's just one of the ways people want to show others "See I am all left wing and I am like super cool for denouncing the country that fed me for the past XX years!"

People moans nonstop about the negatives but they have forgot how much protection and safety they were born in. Imagine being born in north korea, or other extreme countries, gl/hf denouncing your citizenship, let alone leaving the country.

I dont understand how people can just burn the bridge they walked on.

So... my sister, who was born in Nevada, has been a resident of Oregon for more than 10 years now, I take it she's somehow a traitor to the state of Nevada for daring to leave it and no longer supporting it by paying her fair share of the state sales tax?

[Norstal]

I lost my Social Security number/card thingy. Not looking forward to filling in the form, holding it off till next month I think.

SS has nothing to do with citizenship...

[No Water No Moon]

No, actually it IS the point. It's not just taxes, it can be personal, political, hell, even RELIGIOUS, and yes, it can be tax avoidance, but saying it's "most likely" taxes and any other reasoning is unlikely is silly as all hell.

Not at all. There are a number of good reasons to suspect it's about taxes rather than anything else - not least being the political climate in the US, where increasingly large numbers of people have been complaining about the higher tax burdens (despite the reality of tax being pretty much exactly the opposite of that). Tax rates in some brackets are set to increase next year (unless they are extended - otherwise invested income on the quarter-million bracket is set to jump almost 4%)... and tax loopholes have been getting tighter. And, as I said, it's not just amateurs like me that are suspecting financial motives.

Would you be willing to state to the foreign minister "Well, yes, I left the UK because of taxes" or was it "I developed closer ties to the United States".

If I'm leaving permanently anyway? There'd be no point not being upfront about it, would there?

Ah, yes, let's look at other people... Except that we don't. So far we have been focusing on these 'high-profile' cases. Now COULD they have renounced for tax reasons, sure. I have no doubt that it was the case... Now you want to tell me how the hell 2 people count reach N in terms of a population of 1,200?

The simple fact of the matter is that no one complies the data for why people renounce so stating "This is the reason" is sloppy.

Stating it as an absolute? Sure. Stating it as a probability, given context? Not so much.

Or to put it another way, back when the population was smaller, Valdas Adamkus who was a naturalized US citizen and who worked at the EPA for 29 years renounced and became president of Lithuania. In 2009, Michael Oren renounced to become ambassador to the United States from Israel as well as Ashraf Ghani Ahmadzai (renounced to run for president of Afghanistan), Romulo Roux (Ministry of the Panama Canal), and Robin Winkler (Ran for the parliament of Taiwan). So, hell, by your statement that one or two high profile cases somehow set the trend, I hereby conclude that the primary reason for renouncing US citizenship in the year 2009 was political.

Unless those are all volunteer positions... you're still talking about financial incentives.

Ah, I love that, who are these experts and why do they think this? As noted, NO ONE collects the data as to WHY people are doing this.

Ah. I didn't post the link I was reading when I quoted that, did I?

"Experts say the increase in expatriations comes in part because of the Internal Revenue Service’s crackdown on undeclared and untaxed foreign holdings of U.S. taxpayers."

http://blogs.wsj.com/totalreturn/2012/0 ... tizenship/

Nope, just noting that, as someone who has immigrated, it's a little silly to be making claims when one would think you'd be able to see other reasons.

Except that, even in my case where there were 'other reasons', I'm not denying that financial motivations feature prominently.

[NERVUN]

No, actually it IS the point. It's not just taxes, it can be personal, political, hell, even RELIGIOUS, and yes, it can be tax avoidance, but saying it's "most likely" taxes and any other reasoning is unlikely is silly as all hell.

Not at all. There are a number of good reasons to suspect it's about taxes rather than anything else - not least being the political climate in the US, where increasingly large numbers of people have been complaining about the higher tax burdens (despite the reality of tax being pretty much exactly the opposite of that). Tax rates in some brackets are set to increase next year (unless they are extended - otherwise invested income on the quarter-million bracket is set to jump almost 4%)... and tax loopholes have been getting tighter. And, as I said, it's not just amateurs like me that are suspecting financial motives.

Then I'm sure you can point to actual hard data as opposed to mere speculation...

I'll wait.

Would you be willing to state to the foreign minister "Well, yes, I left the UK because of taxes" or was it "I developed closer ties to the United States".

If I'm leaving permanently anyway? There'd be no point not being upfront about it, would there?

Is that why you left the UK, higher taxes?

Ah, yes, let's look at other people... Except that we don't. So far we have been focusing on these 'high-profile' cases. Now COULD they have renounced for tax reasons, sure. I have no doubt that it was the case... Now you want to tell me how the hell 2 people count reach N in terms of a population of 1,200?

The simple fact of the matter is that no one complies the data for why people renounce so stating "This is the reason" is sloppy.

Stating it as an absolute? Sure. Stating it as a probability, given context? Not so much.

Stating, as you did, that any other reason is not likely and not applicable, yes, it was. The fact is, you're speculating and I'm calling you on it. Show proof.

Or to put it another way, back when the population was smaller, Valdas Adamkus who was a naturalized US citizen and who worked at the EPA for 29 years renounced and became president of Lithuania. In 2009, Michael Oren renounced to become ambassador to the United States from Israel as well as Ashraf Ghani Ahmadzai (renounced to run for president of Afghanistan), Romulo Roux (Ministry of the Panama Canal), and Robin Winkler (Ran for the parliament of Taiwan). So, hell, by your statement that one or two high profile cases somehow set the trend, I hereby conclude that the primary reason for renouncing US citizenship in the year 2009 was political.

Unless those are all volunteer positions... you're still talking about financial incentives.

Right, because all politicians are just in it for the money and NEVER, EVER about anything else.

Ah, I love that, who are these experts and why do they think this? As noted, NO ONE collects the data as to WHY people are doing this.

Ah. I didn't post the link I was reading when I quoted that, did I?

"Experts say the increase in expatriations comes in part because of the Internal Revenue Service’s crackdown on undeclared and untaxed foreign holdings of U.S. taxpayers."

http://blogs.wsj.com/totalreturn/2012/0 ... tizenship/

Please, you're better than that. Your WSJ blog also just quotes "the experts" who the fuck are they and were are they getting their data?

I also note that the blog states her reason was "in order to be closer to her longtime life partner, Peter Cervinka, as well as her friends and family."

Nope, just noting that, as someone who has immigrated, it's a little silly to be making claims when one would think you'd be able to see other reasons.

Except that, even in my case where there were 'other reasons', I'm not denying that financial motivations feature prominently.

But that's NOT what you said. You said:

Most likely reason is to avoid taxes, the same reason so many wealthy Americans have their fortunes offshore, etc. If the person has a lot of money, this is almost certainly the reason they are doing it, no matter what other excuse they give.

There are possibly a few who are - for example - going to live in the Middle East, where being a US citizen might be a handicap... but then, just being 'American' (with or without citizenship) would probably mark them as a target, so it seems like an unconvincing reason.

It's very unlikely that any of the other reasons people are throwing around are realistic for almost anyone. It's not because 'America is going to collapse' and it's not because 'America has a horrible human rights record'.

Emphasis mine.

You DIDN'T say "There's some financial reasons", you didn't say "financial reasons more likely than not to factor into the decision", nor did you say "financial motivations feature(d) sic. prominently" in their decision; you made a blanket statement.

There are more reasons than just tax avoidance and unless you're attempting to claim that all Americans who are dumping their citizenship are millionaires or billionaires...

[New Rogernomics]

I lost my Social Security number/card thingy. Not looking forward to filling in the form, holding it off till next month I think.

SS has nothing to do with citizenship...

False actually, in order to apply for a new passport you require your social security number.

[Linux and the X]

SS has nothing to do with citizenship...

False actually, in order to apply for a new passport you require your social security number.

Or accept the fine.

[Forsher]

Less than resident citizens iirc.

Currently the first $92k is 'free'.

Yeah, that's a good reason to give it up. If you're living in the US I wouldn't be inclined to agree that the trade-off is worth it.

[Seleucas]

I don't know why all of them do it, but I will eventually join them. My prospects in the US are lousy, at best, so I'm planning to get out ASAP and find work elsewhere hopefully. If I get stuck abroad, that'll just be the price I'll have to pay- no risk, no reward.

[Aleckandor]

I'm fine if they dropped it for economic reasons. But I find it appalling that they'd leave just because they hate this nation of ours (I wouldn't stoop to call them 'traitors', though; they're more like 'defectors' or 'lost ones').

Suppose you can't please everyone.

Nope, you can't.

[New Rogernomics]

False actually, in order to apply for a new passport you require your social security number.

Or accept the fine.

Yep, which I will avoid having to pay by getting a new social security number; which is allegedly free.

[Linux and the X]

Or accept the fine.

Yep, which I will avoid having to pay by getting a new social security number; which is allegedly free.

If you don't have one you don't need one for a passport; the fine is only for those who have but refuse to provide it.

[New Rogernomics]

Yep, which I will avoid having to pay by getting a new social security number; which is allegedly free.

If you don't have one you don't need one for a passport; the fine is only for those who have but refuse to provide it.

You need one for a passport, if you are transitioning from a child passport to an adult one; different rules outside of the US for US citizens.