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Evolution

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

Do you believe in evolution?

Yes
284
87%
No, because I am a creationist
19
6%
No, because I have other contrasting religious beliefs
6
2%
No, because I do not think there is enough evidence for it
7
2%
No, for a reason not mentioned here
9
3%
 
Total votes : 325

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Hetairos
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Evolution

Postby Hetairos » Mon Jun 01, 2009 9:53 am

Do you believe that evolution happens? If not, is it for any reason other than your religion?

I want to clarify something:
That evolution happens is NOT a theory, and anyone who tells you it is doesn't understand it. It is an OBSERVATION. We can SEE evolution happening in the laboratory;when we change the habitat of fruit flies, we can see changes happening in their genome over many generations, which over time would lead to major changes in their appearance. There are numerous other pieces of evidence for evolution, which I could bring up.The theory of evolution is what we come up with to try to explain why these changes occur, and how species will adapt to their habitats if changed.

If you don't believe in evolution for a reason other than your religion, please reply, because I would be really interested to see why.
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Farnhamia Redux
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Re: Evolution

Postby Farnhamia Redux » Mon Jun 01, 2009 9:55 am

You really shouldn't use the word "believe" in discussing evolution. There's no belief involved. Evolution is, as you say, the explanation of what we observe in the natural world as to how life changes and develops.
Since when is reality a popularity contest? ~ VoijaRisa

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Barfobulville
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Re: Evolution

Postby Barfobulville » Mon Jun 01, 2009 9:57 am

Actually, evolution IS a theory. The scientific definition of 'theory' is an observation that is highly supported by data consistently for a long time. Theories can sometimes hold more water than 'facts'. So, technically, evolution being a theory (well proven) makes it less of a 'theory' (unproven).

Multiple, opposite meanings, how fun.

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Dragontide
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Re: Evolution

Postby Dragontide » Mon Jun 01, 2009 9:58 am

The earth is 8-12 billion years old. Just because it's not 6000 years old does not mean there is no God.
"The American way of life is non-negotiable" President George H. W. Bush (41) 1992 Earth Summit

"When you don't negotiate the circumstances that are sent to you by the universe, you automaticlly get assigned a new negotiating partner... Named 'REALITY'. And it will negotiate for you. You don't even have to be in the room."
James Howard Kunstler (writer)

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Free Soviets
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Re: Evolution

Postby Free Soviets » Mon Jun 01, 2009 9:59 am

Farnhamia Redux wrote:You really shouldn't use the word "believe" in discussing evolution. There's no belief involved. Evolution is, as you say, the explanation of what we observe in the natural world as to how life changes and develops.

sure there is. if you think something about something, you have a belief. belief is not and has never been restricted to believing that god exists or whatever.

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The Alma Mater
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Re: Evolution

Postby The Alma Mater » Mon Jun 01, 2009 10:00 am

Hetairos wrote:That evolution happens is NOT a theory, and anyone who tells you it is doesn't understand it. It is an OBSERVATION. We can SEE evolution happening in the laboratory


Strictly speaking, the mere fact that most people are NOT carbon copies of their parents is also evolution. Which of course is why so many people who deny evolution exists live in regions with lots and lots of inbreeding.

The "theory of evolution through natural selection" examines a possible consequence of the fact of evolution.
Last edited by The Alma Mater on Mon Jun 01, 2009 10:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Free Soviets
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Re: Evolution

Postby Free Soviets » Mon Jun 01, 2009 10:00 am

Dragontide wrote:The earth is 8-12 billion years old. Just because it's not 6000 years old does not mean there is no God.

4.54

and it does mean that biblical literalist god doesn't exist. it leaves the door open to other possible gods, of course, but it most certainly rules out some.

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Australian Asia
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Re: Evolution

Postby Australian Asia » Mon Jun 01, 2009 10:07 am

Uhm, that's no matter of belief, I think so. Evolution for me is like rain... It has always been, and I am so sure about it, that there is no doubt.

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Free Soviets
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Re: Evolution

Postby Free Soviets » Mon Jun 01, 2009 10:12 am

Australian Asia wrote:Uhm, that's no matter of belief, I think so. Evolution for me is like rain... It has always been, and I am so sure about it, that there is no doubt.

are you saying that if i say to you "it's raining outside right now" after looking out the window and you say "i don't believe you", neither of us believes it is raining outside?

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Dragontide
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Re: Evolution

Postby Dragontide » Mon Jun 01, 2009 10:14 am

Free Soviets wrote:and it does mean that biblical literalist god doesn't exist.

How so? It only points out mistakes in the Bible. Misinterpretations. How is God suppose to explain the entire nature of the universe to someone like Abraham or Moses?
it leaves the door open to other possible gods, of course, but it most certainly rules out some.

Why would there be more than one?
"The American way of life is non-negotiable" President George H. W. Bush (41) 1992 Earth Summit

"When you don't negotiate the circumstances that are sent to you by the universe, you automaticlly get assigned a new negotiating partner... Named 'REALITY'. And it will negotiate for you. You don't even have to be in the room."
James Howard Kunstler (writer)

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Farnhamia Redux
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Re: Evolution

Postby Farnhamia Redux » Mon Jun 01, 2009 10:15 am

Free Soviets wrote:
Farnhamia Redux wrote:You really shouldn't use the word "believe" in discussing evolution. There's no belief involved. Evolution is, as you say, the explanation of what we observe in the natural world as to how life changes and develops.

sure there is. if you think something about something, you have a belief. belief is not and has never been restricted to believing that god exists or whatever.

Well ... I suppose it's just semantics but the reason I don't like using "belief" in talking about evolution is that creationists like to twist statements about evolution on that word, claiming that evolution is as much a non-rational position as any religion, or that it is a religion. Why allow them even that little opportunity?

I prefer to say that I accept the scientific explanation of evolution.
Since when is reality a popularity contest? ~ VoijaRisa

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Hetairos
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Re: Evolution

Postby Hetairos » Mon Jun 01, 2009 10:15 am

Barfobulville wrote:Actually, evolution IS a theory. The scientific definition of 'theory' is an observation that is highly supported by data consistently for a long time. Theories can sometimes hold more water than 'facts'. So, technically, evolution being a theory (well proven) makes it less of a 'theory' (unproven).

Multiple, opposite meanings, how fun.


"A scientific theory is a well supported body of interconnected statements that explains observations and can be used to make testable predictions."

Yor definition is a 'fact';simply the observation, i.e, that changes occur in the genomes and appearances of plants and animals.
The thory to evolution explains why these changes occur--changes in habitat etc.
Last edited by Hetairos on Mon Jun 01, 2009 10:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Embassies and ambassadors in Hetairos:
Allanea-Stepan Kamensky
N3wgr0unds-Cyril Malma
Kim Jong-Ila-Hu Yun
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Farnhamia Redux
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Re: Evolution

Postby Farnhamia Redux » Mon Jun 01, 2009 10:15 am

Dragontide wrote:
Free Soviets wrote:and it does mean that biblical literalist god doesn't exist.

How so? It only points out mistakes in the Bible. Misinterpretations. How is God suppose to explain the entire nature of the universe to someone like Abraham or Moses?
it leaves the door open to other possible gods, of course, but it most certainly rules out some.

Why would there be more than one?

Why would there be only one?
Since when is reality a popularity contest? ~ VoijaRisa

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The Alma Mater
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Re: Evolution

Postby The Alma Mater » Mon Jun 01, 2009 10:16 am

Dragontide wrote:
Free Soviets wrote: it leaves the door open to other possible gods, of course, but it most certainly rules out some.

Why would there be more than one?


People believe there are. 70% of the world after all is not Christian ;) And within Christianity itself there exist many different interpretations. Some of those interpretations are probably wrong.
Last edited by The Alma Mater on Mon Jun 01, 2009 10:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
Getting an education was a bit like a communicable sexual disease.
It made you unsuitable for a lot of jobs and then you had the urge to pass it on.
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Farnhamia Redux
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Re: Evolution

Postby Farnhamia Redux » Mon Jun 01, 2009 10:17 am

The Alma Mater wrote:
Dragontide wrote:
Free Soviets wrote: it leaves the door open to other possible gods, of course, but it most certainly rules out some.

Why would there be more than one?


People believe there are. 70% of the world after all is not Christian ;)

Oh, I know. Just wanted to see Dragontide's take on that question. ;)
Since when is reality a popularity contest? ~ VoijaRisa

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Helios Surrexit
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Founded: Mar 05, 2009
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Re: Evolution

Postby Helios Surrexit » Mon Jun 01, 2009 10:18 am

Dragontide wrote:
Free Soviets wrote:and it does mean that biblical literalist god doesn't exist.

How so? It only points out mistakes in the Bible. Misinterpretations. How is God suppose to explain the entire nature of the universe to someone like Abraham or Moses?


God is supposed to be all-powerful and *not a liar*.

If God is unable to explain evolution/abiogenesis more accurately than he supposedly does in Genesis, God is not all-powerful.

If God told Moses that the world was created in seven days, in the specific order described in Genesis, then God was *lying to Moses*.
Last edited by Helios Surrexit on Mon Jun 01, 2009 10:20 am, edited 2 times in total.

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The Alma Mater
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Re: Evolution

Postby The Alma Mater » Mon Jun 01, 2009 10:21 am

Helios Surrexit wrote:If God told Moses that the world was created in seven days, in the specific order described in Genesis, then God was *lying to Moses*.


Or God planted false evidence to suggest it took much longer and happened in a different order.
Either way, He would be a liar.
Getting an education was a bit like a communicable sexual disease.
It made you unsuitable for a lot of jobs and then you had the urge to pass it on.
- Terry Pratchett, Hogfather

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Ravea
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Re: Evolution

Postby Ravea » Mon Jun 01, 2009 10:23 am

The Alma Mater wrote:
Helios Surrexit wrote:If God told Moses that the world was created in seven days, in the specific order described in Genesis, then God was *lying to Moses*.


Or God planted false evidence to suggest it took much longer and happened in a different order.
Either way, He would be a liar.


Or maybe God is just a dick.

Or insane.

I've always considered those options highly probable.
~Omnia mutantur, nihil interit~

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Hetairos
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Founded: May 28, 2009
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Re: Evolution

Postby Hetairos » Mon Jun 01, 2009 10:24 am

The Alma Mater wrote:
Hetairos wrote:That evolution happens is NOT a theory, and anyone who tells you it is doesn't understand it. It is an OBSERVATION. We can SEE evolution happening in the laboratory


Strictly speaking, the mere fact that most people are NOT carbon copies of their parents is also evolution. Which of course is why so many people who deny evolution exists live in regions with lots and lots of inbreeding.

The "theory of evolution through natural selection" examines a possible consequence of the fact of evolution.


But in organisms which reproduce asexually, the offspring are carbon copies of the parent, but these species can still evolve.
"Germanitas Libertorum"
Embassies and ambassadors in Hetairos:
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Barfobulville
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Re: Evolution

Postby Barfobulville » Mon Jun 01, 2009 10:25 am

Helios Surrexit wrote:
If God is unable to explain evolution/abiogenesis more accurately than he supposedly does in Genesis, God is not all-powerful.


To be fair, evolution and abiogenesis are two completely different issues.

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The Alma Mater
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Re: Evolution

Postby The Alma Mater » Mon Jun 01, 2009 10:26 am

Hetairos wrote:But in organisms which reproduce asexually, the offspring are carbon copies of the parent, but these species can still evolve.


If the offspring would always be an exact carbon copy of the parent, there would no evolution.
Getting an education was a bit like a communicable sexual disease.
It made you unsuitable for a lot of jobs and then you had the urge to pass it on.
- Terry Pratchett, Hogfather

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Dyakovo
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Re: Evolution

Postby Dyakovo » Mon Jun 01, 2009 10:26 am

Dragontide wrote:The earth is 8-12 billion years old. Just because it's not 6000 years old does not mean there is no God.

Okay, but what does that have to do with the current discussion?
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Dyakovo
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Re: Evolution

Postby Dyakovo » Mon Jun 01, 2009 10:27 am

Farnhamia Redux wrote:
Free Soviets wrote:
Farnhamia Redux wrote:You really shouldn't use the word "believe" in discussing evolution. There's no belief involved. Evolution is, as you say, the explanation of what we observe in the natural world as to how life changes and develops.

sure there is. if you think something about something, you have a belief. belief is not and has never been restricted to believing that god exists or whatever.

Well ... I suppose it's just semantics but the reason I don't like using "belief" in talking about evolution is that creationists like to twist statements about evolution on that word, claiming that evolution is as much a non-rational position as any religion, or that it is a religion. Why allow them even that little opportunity?

I prefer to say that I accept the scientific explanation of evolution.

That does present it much better...
Don't take life so serious... It isn't permanent...
Freedom from religion is an integral part of Freedom of religion
Married to Koshka
USMC veteran MOS 0331/8152
Grave_n_Idle: Maybe that's why the bible is so anti-other-gods, the other gods do exist, but they diss on Jehovah all the time for his shitty work.
Ifreann: Odds are you're secretly a zebra with a very special keyboard.
Ostro: I think women need to be trained
Margno, Llamalandia, Tarsonis Survivors, Bachmann's America, Internationalist Bastard B'awwwww! You're mean!

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Angleter
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Re: Evolution

Postby Angleter » Mon Jun 01, 2009 10:29 am

The Alma Mater wrote:
Helios Surrexit wrote:If God told Moses that the world was created in seven days, in the specific order described in Genesis, then God was *lying to Moses*.


Or God planted false evidence to suggest it took much longer and happened in a different order.
Either way, He would be a liar.


By using the 'six days' story God was not 'lying', but he was using a metaphor for how Man came into existence. After all, in the days of Moses, Abraham, etc. it would have been virtually impossible to comprehend the theory of evolution, but now we seem to have figured it out for ourselves: God's idea perhaps?

All evolution would show if it is indeed fact is that God either is a libertarian, or that he just doesn't have that much of an interest in biology. I personally think that God just let nature take its course, but sometimes doing something that would prompt a change (such as the meteor that caused the dinosaurs to be wiped out).
[align=center]"I gotta tell you, this is just crazy, huh! This is just nuts, OK! Jeezo man."

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Dragontide
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Re: Evolution

Postby Dragontide » Mon Jun 01, 2009 10:29 am

Helios Surrexit wrote:
Dragontide wrote:
Free Soviets wrote:and it does mean that biblical literalist god doesn't exist.

How so? It only points out mistakes in the Bible. Misinterpretations. How is God suppose to explain the entire nature of the universe to someone like Abraham or Moses?


God is supposed to be all-powerful and *not a liar*.

If God is unable to explain evolution/abiogenesis more accurately than he supposedly does in Genesis, God is not all-powerful.

If God told Moses that the world was created in seven days, in the specific order described in Genesis, then God was *lying to Moses*.

That's the mistake that too many people make. They think God is perfect but he's not. (we are the proof)

I think when God was talking to Moses, he would rather have not had Moses reply "I have no freekin idea what your talking about...What's a nebula again? Can tachyons make a camel go faster?..." God said what he said at the time to accomplish the tasks he wanted done.
"The American way of life is non-negotiable" President George H. W. Bush (41) 1992 Earth Summit

"When you don't negotiate the circumstances that are sent to you by the universe, you automaticlly get assigned a new negotiating partner... Named 'REALITY'. And it will negotiate for you. You don't even have to be in the room."
James Howard Kunstler (writer)

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