Scottish independence?

[Farnhamia]

I see this is history fantasy day here in NSG.

Isn't every day history fantasy day on NSG?

Every day is political fantasy day. We don't always get historical fantasies.

[The Realm of God]

If the Jacobite army hadnt been stopped by false infomation in the 1745 war then he would be the reigning monarch anyway.

I see this is history fantasy day here in NSG.

1) The Jacobite army was stopped by more than 'false information'. Murray was wrong about the presence of a third government army between Derby and London, but he was entirely right about Cumberland and Wade. Contemporary French reports of panic in London were propaganda - certainly they're demonstrably false about the Duke of Newcastle, and there was no panic at the central institutions of government such as the Bank of England. The overwhelming majority of Charles' council of war were in favour of a retreat; given the lack of French support or any statistically significant English Jacobite participation, and the recall of British regiments from the continent, they were almost certainly right. Charles was probably right that a retreat guaranteed defeat, but it's hard to see how a continued advance could have succeeded either; isolated hundreds of miles from their supply lines or centres of political support, they were doomed either way.

2) Even had the '45 succeeded, Franz would most likely not be the current King of Britain (and he would have been a British king - the '45 was attempting to restore the Stuarts to the British throne, not achieve independence for Scotland) as A) Charles would likely have entered a legitimate marriage to a European Royal House, B) his brother Henry would likely not have become a cardinal, and would likely have also married, and C) the combination of Stuart conceptions of Catholic monarchy and the opposition of the English ruling class to the Catholic Stuarts would most likely have led to another revolution - whether in favour of an alternative ruling family or a republic - within the next few decades.

Well looks like the History Channel was wrong.

One thing I do know is that it was not a war between Scotland and England. Most Scottiah Jacobites were Episcopalin and Roman Catholic and most Scottish Calvinists supported the government.

[The Archregimancy]

The idea of putting a 78 year old Bavarian on the throne may appeal to patriotic anglophobic Scots.

because.

A. He's not English.
B. He's descended from Bonnie Prince Charlie.

No he isn't.

Prince Charles Edward Stuart had no legitimate children (he had one recognised illegitimate daughter who herself died of cancer shortly after Charles' death), nor did his brother Cardinal Henry. The direct Stuart line died with Henry.

After the death of Charles and Henry, the Jacobite succession devolved on Charles Emmanuel IV of Sardinia, who became senior heir to the Stuart claim as the great-grandson of Charles I via Charles' daughter Henrietta Anne, and her daughter Anne Marie (who'd married Victor Amadeus II of Sardinia.

[Condunum]

You know what? Fine. I propose something. Indtead of giving the scottish people (or anyone, for that matter) independence, why don't we just go into negotiations with what ever group is in question, reach a reasonable size of land, and give them that much space on the moon? Until we run out of room, that's fine.

Can't, the Nazi moon base would be in the way!

Give that to the Jewish people. The moon is their calender marker, after all.

[The Archregimancy]

Well looks like the History Channel was wrong.

Gosh, well, that certainly comes a surprise - what with the History Channel's unblemished record of accuracy on just about everything.

[The Realm of God]

Well looks like the History Channel was wrong.

Gosh, well, that certainly comes a surprise - what with the History Channel's unblemished record of accuracy on just about everything.

/Sarcasm?

[Tagmatium]

Gosh, well, that certainly comes a surprise - what with the History Channel's unblemished record of accuracy on just about everything.

/Sarcasm?

No, really?

[Lancaster of Wessex]

Gosh, well, that certainly comes a surprise - what with the History Channel's unblemished record of accuracy on just about everything.

/Sarcasm?

No need for the "?".

[UncleDolan]

As an Englishman, I'd like to see them gone. Upstarts.

Give the rest of the UK a say and they'd be gone in an instant, Scotland won't give itself independence, its leeching fangs are far too embedded in England for it to want to give up the feast.

[SD_Film Artists]

I am American, but I have Scottish in me, so i think Scotland should gain independence

Because?

[Tagmatium]

I am American, but I have Scottish in me, so i think Scotland should gain independence

Because?

Because.

[UncleDolan]

Because?

Because.

Oh boy, as much as I love America this is one problem you guys have.

Stop clinging to these far distant roots. The amount of times I've heard Americans claim they're 1/5 Irish or 1/8 Scottish or some bullshit. Your ancestors went to America to escape those nations, don't cling to them further, build on your own damn culture. Especially since the USA is so far away from these tiny nations.

I'm 1/4 Italian, hell I even have an Italian Surname and look about me, but I don't give a flying hoot about Italy or its people.

It doesn't matter what percentage of a gene type you are, keep your noses out of the business of other nations.

[South Asia Minor]

In principle I support a Scottish republic. I don't consider the union legitimate and I wholeheartedly oppose the celebrity cult around the monarchy.

In practical terms -the kind that'd require me to debate- I don't give a dman.

[The Archregimancy]

Because.

Oh boy, as much as I love America this is one problem you guys have.

Amusingly, both of the people you've just quoted are British.

[South Asia Minor]

It doesn't matter what percentage of a gene type you are, keep your noses out of the business of other nations.

Well that's just not going to happen.
Welcome to the internet.

[SD_Film Artists]

In principle I support a Scottish republic.

The SNP have kept fairly neutral on the Monarchy issue (is if there is an issue?).

[South Asia Minor]

In principle I support a Scottish republic.

The SNP have kept fairly neutral on the Monarchy issue (is if there is an issue?).

They sure have. They'd lose buckets of support if they disowned the monarchy. Read: the celebrity cult surrounding the monarchy. I'm not the SNP.

[Episarta]

We seem to have a Scottish independence thread every other week now.

[SD_Film Artists]

The SNP have kept fairly neutral on the Monarchy issue (is if there is an issue?).

They sure have. They'd lose buckets of support if they disowned the monarchy. Read: the celebrity cult surrounding the monarchy. I'm not the SNP.

The SNP are the main drivers of Scottish Independence. Though you're right- the monarchy needs the "celebrity cult" to maintain its image of 'the special ones', but of course few people today take the 'God-givern right' thing seriously. It's more of a nationalism thing.

[Jafas United]

I'd prefer it if the UK remained as one. That being said, it wouldn't be a big deal to me if Scotland split.

[Meowfoundland]

I like the idea of an independent Scotland, but I wouldn't support it unless the majority were in favour of it.

[Souseiseki]

oh boy a scottish independence thread shit i only have 5 minutes before i ned to go oh no

I don't understand why anyone cares. Independence wouldn't change anything at all.

it would result in the term "reserve powers" being obsolete, for a start. this is a "thing" that will have "changed". if you care about trident and iraq, it's pretty big too!

"Scotland is not oppressed and we have no need to be liberated. Independence matters because we do not have the powers to reach our potential. We are limited in what we can do to create jobs, grow the economy and help the vulnerable."

MC salmond represent

Scottish Republic must be proclaimed

lol

But they must consider that the Union is best for everyone.

oh if only we were smarter

If it wants independence so much, why not hold referendum sooner rather than later than in 2014?

because it was stated the referendum would be held in the second half the parliament and it takes time to organize the refendum, figure out the legal shit and allow both sides plenty of time to campaign for argurably the most important political decision we'll ever get to make, not to mention the fact that being the government they have a country to run and it's not referendum referndum referndum 24/7- oh fuck it i am sick of this question

one half complains people are jumping it into without thinking and the other half claims "well if you're so sure why are you taking time to think???????????"

To be honest we work better as a team than as bickering neighbours.

it's debatable whether we "we work better as a team" and debatable whether the situation would be "bickering neighbours"

Whether the masses living in Scotland controlled by a small elite in the UK or controlled by a small elite living in Scotland, they will still be living under the thumb of a government they have little say in or control over. The difference is semantic, not real.

this is literally the only good argument i ever seen for the union, which is pretty depressing when you think about it.

Scotland would become a Commonwealth country then?

probably, just like ireland for the first 30 years

As a Scot living in anouther country I feel threatned by the SNP, by the possibility that I will never be able to come home.

What? Why?

I'll keep this one open since there isn't another currently active thread on the topic, but as we get closer to 2014 I think we may have to seriously consider starting a megathread.

the campaign is officially started. it is officially "on". make a megathread. please. please.

I'd prefer it if the UK remained as one. That being said, it wouldn't be a big deal to me if Scotland split.

You're also for the whole "PRC rule in Tibet" thing, right? I just want to put your posts into context.

I am American, but I have Scottish in me, so i think Scotland should gain independence

eh

[Jafas United]

I'd prefer it if the UK remained as one. That being said, it wouldn't be a big deal to me if Scotland split.

You're also for the whole "PRC rule in Tibet" thing, right? I just want to put your posts into context.

I'd hate to remind you what a strawman is. What on earth do my views on Tibet have to do with Scotland? But yeah, it was nice of you to take my posts out of context.

[Forsher]

I think, for the Scottish people, that independence is a bad move.

I should ask my aunt though, she was born in Scotland. Or my mother who had the misfortune to be born here but lived for a time as a child in Scotland. Or my friend whose parents are Scottish and has an accent despite being born here. Or this Scottish person my mother knows... The list goes on.

[Forsher]

If it wants independence so much, why not hold referendum sooner rather than later than in 2014?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-s ... s-18080527

If Scotland wants independence, then by all means ask the population. But I believe that you should do something about it rather than moan for ages about it and then procrastinate when you get your way.

Because that usually works against divisionists. They need time to build up a support base.