Minimum wage (poll included).

[David Williams]

So NSG, What do you think of the idea of a minimum wage?
Should there be one or not?
If so, Should it be a minimum earnings per hour, or per week?
How high should it be?
(these options are in the poll).

At the moment, news is:

USA: federal law states that no one may be paid lower 7.25$ (us) on an hourly basis, some states make this higher.

UK: Ages 18-20 yrs old get 4.98 pounds (7.80 US) minimum per hour, 6.08 pounds (9.50 US) for 21 and up.

Australia: 15.51 Aus dollars (15.10 US) an hour minimum, or 589.30 a week (38 hours, 575$ US).

NZ (My country of residence): Current pm has just after raising it from 13$ an hour (9.80 US) to 13.50 (10.40 US) got criticized for it by other parties as it "barely covers inflation" and "doesn't take into account the rising cost of living". His excuse is that if he raises it more, people will lose jobs. The green party has made a sham claim that raising it to 15$ (11.30 US) will get more tax revenue as "If people are earning more, they are paying tax on the extra money they are earning" http://www.greens.org.nz/press-releases/raise-minimum-wage-help-govt-books.

I think this is bs as although the minimum wagers are earning more this money is being deducted from the businesses who if not paying it to the employees would get taxed on it anyway. In fact, due to our progressive tax system, we would earn more revenue if we didn't raise it as if it get's given to the employees, they will be taxed 10%, on the businesses the tax rate is 33%.

I'd also like to know what you would think about the idea of a Maximum wage?
Apparently the 4th place "Left front" party in france proposed that there should be a 100% tax rate for any earnings over 360'000 Euros each year (450'000$ US) which basically means a 360'000 Euro (450'000$) maximum wage.

[Forster Keys]

US minimum wage is ridiculously low. About half Australia's. And due to the casualisation of the workforce you get people working exorbitant hours just to keep out of water.

[Not a pipe]

No minimum wage. Also, earnings should be based on piecework not time.

[Tekania]

No minimum wage. Also, earnings should be based on piecework not time.

You'd never get the executives running companies to agree to that.

[Socialdemokraterne]

The way I've had the effects of an increase in minimum wage explained to me is that this only temporarily increases the purchasing power of the people who are actually earning minimum wage, because prices soon adjust upward and they end up with the same purchasing power they had before (if not less).

With that in mind the purchasing power of the minimum wage earner's wages is dependent upon the condition of the economy. During a period of inflation their wages should be becoming more and more worthless, hence the call to raise the minimum wage. If raising the minimum wage really does just amplify inflation, what is the right course to correct the problem of the minimum wage earner's shrinking purchasing power? Isn't the point of a minimum wage to give each person a minimum level of purchasing power?

[Vousielle]

I'm am still undecided on the issue of minimum wage, raising it does help working people in the short term, but it doesn't seem like it does much in the long run.

[Vaklor]

No minimum wage.

[Raeyh]

I've heard company people say, "we won't hire anyone from [state] because their minimum wage is too high and we can't afford it." So, it's really not a very good idea.

Besides, having a job really has nothing to do with the money you make, working is a social obligation that every adult needs to fulfill.

[Greed and Death]

Raising it produces a temporary fix followed by inflation it is the ultimate rat race.

Furthermore a national minimum wage prevents areas of the country with an excess of labor from utilizing their advantages in the competition for industry.

[Socialdemokraterne]

Besides, having a job really has nothing to do with the money you make, working is a social obligation that every adult needs to fulfill.

Having a job has nothing to do with the money you make and is a social obligation. Which job you pursue is a very serious financial decision with very serious socioeconomic consequences.

[David Williams]

Besides, having a job really has nothing to do with the money you make, working is a social obligation that every adult needs to fulfill.

Having a job has nothing to do with the money you make and is a social obligation. Which job you pursue is a very serious financial decision with very serious socioeconomic consequences.

Why should it be an obligation? What's wrong with being homeless, or have someone else look after you, maybe become a housewife?

[Raeyh]

Which job you pursue is a very serious financial decision with very serious socioeconomic consequences.

Not really. No matter what job you get, it's better than being unemployed and making no money at all. So it's not that big a financial decision.

Why should it be an obligation? What's wrong with being homeless,

Homeless are a public nuisance.

or have someone else look after you,

If you also had a job, even a part time one, you can help that person out a little.

maybe become a housewife?

You mean raising children? That is a job in and of itself since it's so important and all.

[Socialdemokraterne]

Which job you pursue is a very serious financial decision with very serious socioeconomic consequences.

Not really. No matter what job you get you, it's better than being unemployed and making no money at all. So it's not that big a financial decision.

Many career tracks require a great deal of investment, both temporal and financial. Places where universal tertiary education is not present (such as the USA) place a massive financial burden on their prospective specialists. One has to weigh the job markets, assess the amount of risk involved in pursuing a particular degree, and then determine whether or not it is worth it to invest thousands upon thousands of dollars pursuing said degree in order to qualify for a certain occupation. Entry-level positions and unskilled positions may fit your criteria, but the rest of the job market does not.

Why should it be an obligation? What's wrong with being homeless, or have someone else look after you, maybe become a housewife?

The idea is (at least when I express it) much less a moralistic argument and much more an argument for maximizing society's productive potential while minimizing the burden on public resources such as welfare and charity efforts. Being jobless for a time isn't seen as a problem. Being jobless forever is seen as a problem, because the individual is a non-contributor.

[Raeyh]

Not really. No matter what job you get you, it's better than being unemployed and making no money at all. So it's not that big a financial decision.

Many career tracks require a great deal of investment, both temporal and financial. Places where universal tertiary education is not present (such as the USA) place a massive financial burden on their prospective specialists. One has to weigh the job markets, assess the amount of risk involved in pursuing a particular degree, and then determine whether or not it is worth it to invest thousands upon thousands of dollars pursuing said degree in order to qualify for a certain occupation. Entry-level positions and unskilled positions may fit your criteria, but the rest of the job market does not.

It's not that difficult. If the government or some other organization will pay for education or training through scholarships or whatever, go for it. If not, go for unskilled and entry-level positions.

society's productive potential while minimizing the burden on public resources such as welfare and charity efforts

Many jobs don't actually produce anything, just saying.

[Socialdemokraterne]

It's not that difficult. If the government or some other organization will pay for education or training through scholarships or whatever, go for it. If not, go for unskilled and entry-level positions.

Job markets fluctuate. What is in high demand when you first start up your schooling could be a dead market or ultra-competitive by the time you graduate. This possibility introduces a level of risk in your decision to go to college and pursue a career needing specialized training. And decisions with high levels of risk (and believe me, gambling with tens of thousands of dollars is a high risk game) should be approached very carefully.

[David Williams]

society's productive potential while minimizing the burden on public resources such as welfare and charity efforts

Many jobs don't actually produce anything, just saying.

I'm sure productive scientists like Albert Einstein eat food right? So taking a minimum wage job at a supermarket has got to have some potential productivity. And it also minimizes burden on welfare.

[Socialdemokraterne]

Many jobs don't actually produce anything, just saying.

Productivity is a concept tied to a lot more than just making things. Just saying.

[Raeyh]

It's not that difficult. If the government or some other organization will pay for education or training through scholarships or whatever, go for it. If not, go for unskilled and entry-level positions.

Job markets fluctuate. What is in high demand when you first start up your schooling could be a dead market or ultra-competitive by the time you graduate. This possibility introduces a level of risk in your decision to go to college and pursue a career needing specialized training. And decisions with high levels of risk (and believe me, gambling with tens of thousands of dollars is a high risk game) should be approached very carefully.

And? I can speak from personal experience that the training I received has nothing to do at all with the field of employment I'm currently in. It just made my resume look good because I had a certificate, seriously.

Productivity is a concept tied to a lot more than just making things. Just saying

Bureaucracy never produces anything at all.

[Socialdemokraterne]

And? I can speak from personal experience that the training I received has nothing to do at all with the field of employment I'm currently in. It just made my resume look good because I had a certificate, seriously.

So you wasted your money. Well done. Perhaps you'll take the decision of whether or not you should pursue another certificate a little more seriously than you did the first time around?

Bureaucracy never produces anything at all.

The tertiary sector of an economy is a hell of a lot more than bureaucracy. It's healthcare, it's financial services (such as banking), it's education. TELL me that these things don't give the society in question productive power despite the distinct absence of producing physical objects themselves. I dare you.

[Raeyh]

So you wasted your money. Well done. Perhaps you'll take the decision of whether or not you should pursue another certificate a little more seriously than you did the first time around?

What are you going on about? I got a job, didn't I? Besides, it was tax payer money. You wouldn't think I would actually pay someone to give me training, would you? You guys paid for it.

The tertiary sector of an economy is a hell of a lot more than bureaucracy. It's healthcare, it's financial services (such as banking), it's education. TELL me that these things don't give the society in question productive power despite the distinct absence of producing physical objects themselves. I dare you.

It's hard to find meaning in pushing papers all day.

[Aquophia]

I don't really know. I've heard arguments saying that if there were no minumum wage, companies could afford on-the-job training so people could actually get the job. The way things are now, where every job either needs training of experience, i'd say something is wrong.

[Krasnyi Zemlya]

The one that prevents a hyperinflation and poverty

[David Williams]

The one that prevents a hyperinflation and poverty

How high would that be?

[Socialdemokraterne]

What are you going on about? I got a job, didn't I? Besides, it was tax payer money. You wouldn't think I would actually pay someone to give me training, would you? You guys paid for it.

Fine. So you got a job and you didn't have to pay for your college education. Lucky you. This part of our conversation is over.

It's hard to find meaning in pushing papers all day.

Remind your doctor that his job is meaningless next time you visit.

[Raeyh]

Fine. So you got a job and you didn't have to pay for your college education. Lucky you. This part of our conversation is over.

If I had a college education I would have said "degree" instead of "certificate" and "education" instead of "training."

Remind your doctor that his job is meaningless next time you visit.

The doctor has purpose, the person behind the counter who hands you that form to fill out, not so much.