Logic and god

[UpwardThrust]

While I hate to start what may indeed be a big faith mashup I have found a video that interested me. And with my past forum fights on the basis of faith or lack there of I wished to post it and see what you thought of it.

At this time it really symbolized my personal belief system and why I do argue based on faith in the forums

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wV_REEdvxo

What do you all think of the video? Faith of a higher being regardless of denomination?

[CIB EMPIRE]

While I hate to start what may indeed be a big faith mashup I have found a video that interested me. And with my past forum fights on the basis of faith or lack there of I wished to post it and see what you thought of it.

At this time it really symbolized my personal belief system and why I do argue based on faith in the forums

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wV_REEdvxo

What do you all think of the video? Faith of a higher being regardless of denomination?

oh god,i hope its not another drag queen lol

[Shoshogo]

There will be blood.

Note: I didn't watch the video, just saying from personal experience that this will get very tedious very quickly.
UPDATE: OK, I just watched the first 7 minutes and liked what I saw very much, even if it was somewhat redundant.

[-Raysia-]

How about posting highlights, I don't feel like sitting down to watch a 10 minute video by an extremely boring speaker.

[Kashindahar]

Also didn't watch it, just popped in to say that faith doesn't work as a premise for a logical argument.

[UpwardThrust]

There will be blood.

Note: I didn't watch the video, just saying from personal experience that this will get very tedious very quickly.

After 10's of thousands of posts in general I realize this ... but I think it does explain it in a rather non aggravating way (the video it is) and addresses the core tension points between those with faith and those without

[UpwardThrust]

How about posting highlights, I don't feel like sitting down to watch a 10 minute video by an extremely boring speaker.

Personally thats what I think makes the video ... the attempt to avoid aggravating factors.

Basically it is an explanation as to logically why the claims of a specific god can not be justified by logic and why thoes that do not believe in this non-logic take exception to the claim of proof and the logical fallacies of those with belief

[Skworn]

The video proves a point which I think, very few people on this forum would argue, which is that logic cannot be made to support claims of the existence of God or gods. The whole point of most religions is not logic, but faith, which, by nature is unjustified.

The "advice" for lack of a better term that the speaker seems to be giving religious people, to refrain from attempting to be public about, and spread their beliefs, however, misses another key point of most religions, which is the push to convert. Most religious people do not confront others because of close-mindedness (there are many who do, of course), but because confronting others and attempting to convert them is a key element of their religion.

For example, let's consider the case of christianity. Christians believe that all those who have not accepted Jesus and honestly repented of their sins will go to Hell upon their death. That is simply what the Bible says, there's nothing mean-spirited at the core of that belief. If a christian knows non-christians, and does nothing to attempt to "save" them, it would seem, from a certain perspective, that he or she wishes those people to go to Hell, as he/she believes that if nothing is done, that is what will happen, and is doing nothing about it.

[Rhodmhire]

10 minutes was an awfully long time, but I watched the whole thing.

His final point on how your character isn't defined by your god(s) but how you treat people is pretty much the premise of my response to the video itself.

I don't go around damning those to hell, nor do I even bring up my religion unless asked about it. I treat people as greatly as I can, and I try and do as much good as I can as well.

Whether I believe in a devine being or not, I make an immense effort to treat others well, therefore, I'm not the hot-headed imbecile the talker constnatly makes reference to in the video.

[Drachmar]

How about posting highlights, I don't feel like sitting down to watch a 10 minute video by an extremely boring speaker.

Personally thats what I think makes the video ... the attempt to avoid aggravating factors.

Basically it is an explanation as to logically why the claims of a specific god can not be justified by logic and why thoes that do not believe in this non-logic take exception to the claim of proof and the logical fallacies of those with belief

See, I don't mind that an atheist discusses their belief in a non-god universe, but when you start to boil things down to non-logic, fallacies, and adjectives of that nature, you're only throwing up a wall of non-communication.

Atheist...you believe what you believe (and I'll agree with you to an extent).
Theist...you believe what you believe (and I'll agree with you to an extent).

The human brain is so very limited in it's ability so I don't see anyone gaining any grounds in this argument for quite a long time. Much longer than my lifespan.

[Soyut]

What's inside the cube you ask?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=01hUyIrubWE

[Tunizcha]

Logic and God are somewhat incompatible.

[Skworn]

Logic and God are somewhat incompatible.

That's the whole point of the video.

[Virtud Tierra]

Well, this is pretty much why I'm an agnostic and I think the militant atheists and salwart religious are both in error.

There is no way to know. There is no reason to think a god would obey the rules of mortal logic. There is to evidence that a god intervenes in our world when science offers more logical answers. There is no evidence that a god does not exist when you can say that god simply cannot be understood or proven to exist or not.

[UpwardThrust]

The video proves a point which I think, very few people on this forum would argue, which is that logic cannot be made to support claims of the existence of God or gods. The whole point of most religions is not logic, but faith, which, by nature is unjustified.

The "advice" for lack of a better term that the speaker seems to be giving religious people, to refrain from attempting to be public about, and spread their beliefs, however, misses another key point of most religions, which is the push to convert. Most religious people do not confront others because of close-mindedness (there are many who do, of course), but because confronting others and attempting to convert them is a key element of their religion.

For example, let's consider the case of christianity. Christians believe that all those who have not accepted Jesus and honestly repented of their sins will go to Hell upon their death. That is simply what the Bible says, there's nothing mean-spirited at the core of that belief. If a christian knows non-christians, and does nothing to attempt to "save" them, it would seem, from a certain perspective, that he or she wishes those people to go to Hell, as he/she believes that if nothing is done, that is what will happen, and is doing nothing about it.

This is going to sound argumentative but of all the Christians I have known (and with the demographic in my area they are the majority) Seem to confront non believers more out of a need to convert because of A) Fear of them B) Need for everyone to believe as they do to re-enforce their beliefs

It is a simplification I agree and I have known christians that are genuinely motivated by a wish to help others but they were the minority in my experience

[Tunizcha]

Logic and God are somewhat incompatible.

That's the whole point of the video.

That's the whole point of a 10 minute video. I'm summarizing it for the people like me who have no lives (characterized by being on this site), yet feel that watching a 10 minute video that has a redundancy value of over 9000 is a waste of time.

[-Raysia-]

Umm, I'm pretty sure the scriptures put it pretty clear:

Hebrews 11
1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
2 For by it the elders obtained a good report [their testimony].
3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

Ether 12
6 ...I would show unto the world that faith is things which are hoped for and not seen; wherefore, dispute not because ye see not, for ye receive no witness until after the trial of your faith.

Faith both can and can not be used in an argument. It is evidence that can only be personal, internal, but not easily shared with others.

Best example is like in that movie, Contact, where the girl goes on that amazing 'trip' without a shred of proof, but she could not deny it.

JS-H
25: ...I knew it, and I knew that God knew it, and I could not deny it, neither dared I do it

It can't be used as evidence in persuading others, as it is designed to persuade only yourself.

[Skworn]

The video proves a point which I think, very few people on this forum would argue, which is that logic cannot be made to support claims of the existence of God or gods. The whole point of most religions is not logic, but faith, which, by nature is unjustified.

The "advice" for lack of a better term that the speaker seems to be giving religious people, to refrain from attempting to be public about, and spread their beliefs, however, misses another key point of most religions, which is the push to convert. Most religious people do not confront others because of close-mindedness (there are many who do, of course), but because confronting others and attempting to convert them is a key element of their religion.

For example, let's consider the case of christianity. Christians believe that all those who have not accepted Jesus and honestly repented of their sins will go to Hell upon their death. That is simply what the Bible says, there's nothing mean-spirited at the core of that belief. If a christian knows non-christians, and does nothing to attempt to "save" them, it would seem, from a certain perspective, that he or she wishes those people to go to Hell, as he/she believes that if nothing is done, that is what will happen, and is doing nothing about it.

This is going to sound argumentative but of all the Christians I have known (and with the demographic in my area they are the majority) Seem to confront non believers more out of a need to convert because of A) Fear of them B) Need for everyone to believe as they do to re-enforce their beliefs

It is a simplification I agree and I have known christians that are genuinely motivated by a wish to help others but they were the minority in my experience

That's where I believe you are wrong. It's true that many christians come across that way, but most don't actually fear or despise those who believe differently from them. Here's an analogy that may work.

Some people have a friend who is addicted to narcotics. They are very worried about him and scared for his life, so they hold an intervention, where they confront him with what they percieve to be his "problems" and tell him he needs to get clean and sort out his life. Unfortunately, they come across a bit too strong, he disagrees and their intervention only makes the situation worse.

(I don't mean to imply that atheism is as bad is drug addiction, it's just an analogy that came to mind)

I've had in depth discussions with numerous "screaming preachers" who've showed up on my campus about their methods and confronted them with my belief that all they do is push people away. I believe, that while they come across as hateful and angry, they are actually trying to help people, but just don't know how to go about it properly.

[Anticommunist States]

Well, this is pretty much why I'm an agnostic and I think the militant atheists and salwart religious are both in error.

There is no way to know. There is no reason to think a god would obey the rules of mortal logic. There is to evidence that a god intervenes in our world when science offers more logical answers. There is no evidence that a god does not exist when you can say that god simply cannot be understood or proven to exist or not.

I agree.

However, being as how I was raised in highly religious environs when I was a child(I lived with my Grandparents for a while and they had a chapel behind their house....), I still tend to somewhat lean toward Christian habits. Not knocking on people's doors or picketing outside my neighborhood abortion clinic or anything like that - things like: saying "oh god!" or interpreting spiritual matters within a Christian context or celebrating Easter and Christmas.

As for me personally - I pray to God, and in my interpretation of Christianity, God is infinitely logical. God for me isn't a "old dude in the sky", but the mysteries of life and existance that science seems to be perpetually in pursuit of. I fail to see why there are a lot of Christians who are intolerant of people who aren't. Christ taught many things that were simply a matter of common sense or self-control or sacrifice. So, I wouldn't say that religion in itself is totally devoid of logic and reason - but many times you'll find that it's the followers who are irrational or unreasonable.

[RRichland]

While I hate to start what may indeed be a big faith mashup I have found a video that interested me. And with my past forum fights on the basis of faith or lack there of I wished to post it and see what you thought of it.

At this time it really symbolized my personal belief system and why I do argue based on faith in the forums

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wV_REEdvxo

What do you all think of the video? Faith of a higher being regardless of denomination?

After watching the vid, I don't see how you can draw any conclusions about faith or a higher power other than that you cannot prove the existence of either.

[Lunatic Goofballs]

I really hope there are tacos inside the cube.

[UpwardThrust]

While I hate to start what may indeed be a big faith mashup I have found a video that interested me. And with my past forum fights on the basis of faith or lack there of I wished to post it and see what you thought of it.

At this time it really symbolized my personal belief system and why I do argue based on faith in the forums

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wV_REEdvxo

What do you all think of the video? Faith of a higher being regardless of denomination?

After watching the vid, I don't see how you can draw any conclusions about faith or a higher power other than that you cannot prove the existence of either.

Very true
Thats where personal feeling that without the ability to prove the positive the logical (by logical here I mean personal internal logic) that without the ability to prove the positive that there is no reason to believe in said god (of any type) kicks in

It seems like a natural stance personally without a logical proof of the alternative

[RRichland]

While I hate to start what may indeed be a big faith mashup I have found a video that interested me. And with my past forum fights on the basis of faith or lack there of I wished to post it and see what you thought of it.

At this time it really symbolized my personal belief system and why I do argue based on faith in the forums

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wV_REEdvxo

What do you all think of the video? Faith of a higher being regardless of denomination?

After watching the vid, I don't see how you can draw any conclusions about faith or a higher power other than that you cannot prove the existence of either.

Very true
Thats where personal feeling that without the ability to prove the positive the logical (by logical here I mean personal internal logic) that without the ability to prove the positive that there is no reason to believe in said god (of any type) kicks in

It seems like a natural stance personally without a logical proof of the alternative

I don't know about all of that. didn't understand parts of it, I was just commenting on the video this thread is based upon.

[Drachmar]

I have repeatedly said that in my opinion the idea of a personal God is a childlike one, but I do not share the crusading spirit of the professional atheist whose fervor is mostly due to a painful act of liberation from the fetters of religious indoctrination received in youth. I prefer an attitude of humility corresponding to the weakness of our intellectual understanding of nature and of our own being. (Albert Einstein)

[Virtud Tierra]

Well, this is pretty much why I'm an agnostic and I think the militant atheists and salwart religious are both in error.

There is no way to know. There is no reason to think a god would obey the rules of mortal logic. There is to evidence that a god intervenes in our world when science offers more logical answers. There is no evidence that a god does not exist when you can say that god simply cannot be understood or proven to exist or not.

I agree.

However, being as how I was raised in highly religious environs when I was a child(I lived with my Grandparents for a while and they had a chapel behind their house....), I still tend to somewhat lean toward Christian habits. Not knocking on people's doors or picketing outside my neighborhood abortion clinic or anything like that - things like: saying "oh god!" or interpreting spiritual matters within a Christian context or celebrating Easter and Christmas.

As for me personally - I pray to God, and in my interpretation of Christianity, God is infinitely logical. God for me isn't a "old dude in the sky", but the mysteries of life and existance that science seems to be perpetually in pursuit of. I fail to see why there are a lot of Christians who are intolerant of people who aren't. Christ taught many things that were simply a matter of common sense or self-control or sacrifice. So, I wouldn't say that religion in itself is totally devoid of logic and reason - but many times you'll find that it's the followers who are irrational or unreasonable.

Right. I think even Atheists have to go to a point where they have to make a leap of faith to believe that a god does not exisit.

Now, they might certainly be right! For all we know, a purple fish wearing a crown of skulls greets you in the afterlife and condemns you to hell because nobody believed in him.

The afterlife and spirituality is unknowable, it cannot be measured, understood or wrestled into context with mortal logic. There is no context we can place god into. Its not a computer, animal, person or anything. Its God, it not only understands the mysteries of the universe, it created the universe, including the things that are scientifically illogical. The uncertianty principle of quantum physics, for example. Its beyond mortal understanding. Maybe a higher power not only understands it, he created that shit. I don't think if there was a God that caused that Big Bang and oversees the world would really want to show that it exists. It probably doesn't care. It does its own thing which is beyond our understanding.

Also, I really doubt said God is going to throw me into helll for drinking too much beer or punish me for ignoring that he exists.