I Forget, Does Assassination Count as Terrorism?

[Farnhamia Redux]

Not the point. Luporum said, "Maybe I've missed something but a majority of American Christians undeniably preach intolerance, vengeance, and exclusion," and then backed it up with "Still; everyone I meet, who considers themself a Christian, has an agenda typically fueled on hate, fear, and ignorance. They love the death penalty, hate gays, and openly want war with anyone who isn't 'American'."

Whether or not most American Christians voted Republican or not, what we have here is a generalization on the grand scale back up by personal anecdotes. I can't let that go unchallenged, and neither should you.

i was providing better evidence. voting republican does amount to what L said, and there is a good case to be made that those who can't seem to make it to church regularly don't really take their religion seriously enough to be concerned with. therefore, majorities of serious american christians have an agenda based on hate, fear, ignorance, warmongering, etc.

Well ... at least you did take the trouble to find numbers.

I do notice that the numbers voting GOP seem to be declining, from 59% in 2002 and 2004 to 55% in 2006. I wonder what the 2008 numbers look like?

[Free Soviets]

I do notice that the numbers voting GOP seem to be declining, from 59% in 2002 and 2004 to 55% in 2006. I wonder what the 2008 numbers look like?

not exactly the same, but http://elections.nytimes.com/2008/resul ... polls.html has the weekly attendance split for obama - mccain at 43 to 55

[Bottle]

Here is what I really find odd about this thread. Where has there been any report that the killer was pro or anti anything? On what evidence are people deciding this had anything to do with abortion. It is the usual mindless lemmings being led about by the manipulative media trying to sell an ideology...

Yep, it's us mindless lemmings leaping to the CORRECT conclusion that a white Christian male fanatic was the murderer in this case.

Sorry to burst the bubble for all the Anti-Life folks like you, but the trend is just too clear for anybody to miss.

Dr. Tiller did more good every morning before breakfast than any Anti-Life extremist like you has done in their lifetime. Dr. Tiller saved more lives than all of you combined. It is not remotely extreme or inappropriate for me to say that Dr. Tiller was a hero. He put his life on the line to provide women with live-saving LEGAL medical care. He was one of only three people in this entire country brave enough to do that.

But I'm sure neither you nor any of the other scum who secretly cheer at this murder will ever bother to learn any of the facts about Dr. Tiller and his work. You'll just rest happily knowing that your terrorism worked today, and more women and children will suffer and die for the sake of your beliefs.

[Farnhamia Redux]

Here is what I really find odd about this thread. Where has there been any report that the killer was pro or anti anything? On what evidence are people deciding this had anything to do with abortion. It is the usual mindless lemmings being led about by the manipulative media trying to sell an ideology...

Yep, it's us mindless lemmings leaping to the CORRECT conclusion that a white Christian male fanatic was the murderer in this case.

Sorry to burst the bubble for all the Anti-Life folks like you, but the trend is just too clear for anybody to miss.

Dr. Tiller did more good every morning before breakfast than any Anti-Life extremist like you has done in their lifetime. Dr. Tiller saved more lives than all of you combined. It is not remotely extreme or inappropriate for me to say that Dr. Tiller was a hero. He put his life on the line to provide women with live-saving LEGAL medical care. He was one of only three people in this entire country brave enough to do that.
But I'm sure neither you nor any of the other scum who secretly cheer at this murder will ever bother to learn any of the facts about Dr. Tiller and his work. You'll just rest happily knowing that your terrorism worked today, and more women and children will suffer and die for the sake of your beliefs.

Did you see the leaders of the "pro-life" movement condemned the murder? They did this on the steps of the Supreme Court and then went on to hope that Obama would not use this murder for political gain.

[Bottle]

Of course, my half-baked plan would go hand in hand with making less abortions be sought in the first place. Ideally, the state at which no abortions are sought would achieved before the other half of the plan.

its unlikely that abortion will never be needed.

we are still human after all. we have unwise sex. we have imperfect birth control. we have damaged fetuses. i dont see any of that changing. ever.

And let's make one thing absolutely fucking clear:

Dr. Tiller did not perform elective third trimester abortions. You know why? Because elective third trimester abortions are ILLEGAL, and have been so for A VERY VERY LONG TIME.

You know what kind of abortions Dr. Tiller performed? This kind:
http://www.talkleft.com/story/2009/5/31/202653/819

In 1994 my wife and I found out that she was pregnant. The pregnancy was difficult and unusually uncomfortable but her doctor repeatedly told her things were fine. Sometime early in the 8th month my wife, an RN who at the time was working in an infertility clinic asked the Dr. she was working for what he thought of her discomfort. He examined her and said that he couldn’t be certain but thought that she might be having twins. We were thrilled and couldn’t wait to get a new sonogram that hopefully would confirm his thoughts. Two days later our joy was turned to unspeakable sadness when the new sonogram showed conjoined twins. Conjoined twins alone is not what was so difficult but the way they were joined meant that at best only one child would survive the surgery to separate them and the survivor would more than likely live a brief and painful life filled with surgery and organ transplants. We were advised that our options were to deliver into the world a child who’s life would be filled with horrible pain and suffering or fly out to Wichita Kansas and to terminate the pregnancy under the direction of Dr. George Tiller.

We made an informed decision to go to Kansas. One can only imagine the pain borne by a woman who happily carries a child for 8 months only to find out near the end of term that the children were not to be and that she had to make the decision to terminate the pregnancy and go against everything she had been taught to believe was right. This was what my wife had to do. Dr. Tiller is a true American hero. The nightmare of our decision and the aftermath was only made bearable by the warmth and compassion of Dr. Tiller and his remarkable staff. Dr. Tiller understood that this decision was the most difficult thing that a woman could ever decide and he took the time to educate us and guide us along with the other two couples who at the time were being forced to make the same decision after discovering that they too were carrying children impacted by horrible fetal anomalies. I could describe in great detail the procedures and the pain and suffering that everyone is subjected to in these situations. However, that is not the point of the post. We can all imagine that this is not something that we would wish on anyone. The point is that the pain and suffering were only mitigated by the compassion and competence of Dr. George Tiller and his staff. We are all diminished today for a host of reasons but most of all because a man of great compassion and courage has been lost to the world.


That's what Dr. Tiller did. He performed LEGAL MEDICAL ABORTIONS. He performed abortions in cases where either the woman's life was in danger or the fetus was medically doomed. He respected women as intelligent and moral beings who are capable of making these horrible and complicated decisions for their own damn selves.

And for this, he was labeled a genocidal monster. For this, he was called "Tiller the Killer" by prominent organizations like Operation Rescue. For this compassion, and bravery, and dedication, Dr. Tiller was murdered.

[Godsbirth]

I'm pro-life, and it makes sense that I think that the fact that the doctor is NOT LIVING is important.


My first post ever! Hooray!

[Bottle]

Here is what I really find odd about this thread. Where has there been any report that the killer was pro or anti anything? On what evidence are people deciding this had anything to do with abortion. It is the usual mindless lemmings being led about by the manipulative media trying to sell an ideology...

Yep, it's us mindless lemmings leaping to the CORRECT conclusion that a white Christian male fanatic was the murderer in this case.

Sorry to burst the bubble for all the Anti-Life folks like you, but the trend is just too clear for anybody to miss.

Dr. Tiller did more good every morning before breakfast than any Anti-Life extremist like you has done in their lifetime. Dr. Tiller saved more lives than all of you combined. It is not remotely extreme or inappropriate for me to say that Dr. Tiller was a hero. He put his life on the line to provide women with live-saving LEGAL medical care. He was one of only three people in this entire country brave enough to do that.
But I'm sure neither you nor any of the other scum who secretly cheer at this murder will ever bother to learn any of the facts about Dr. Tiller and his work. You'll just rest happily knowing that your terrorism worked today, and more women and children will suffer and die for the sake of your beliefs.

Did you see the leaders of the "pro-life" movement condemned the murder? They did this on the steps of the Supreme Court and then went on to hope that Obama would not use this murder for political gain.

Up until now I've been content to put "Pro-life" in scare quotes. But not any more. These are people who want women and girls to die rather than have access to safe, legal medical care. These are people who want the lives of women and girls to be sacrificed for their personal religious beliefs. These are people who believe that the bodies of women and girls should be regarded as public property, and that the fundamental human rights of 51% of the population should be put to a popular vote. These are people who see a man murdered and can barely manage some tepid comments about what a shame it is before they dive into discussions of how richly he deserved to die.

From now on, I'm going to call this ideology by the correct and appropriate name of Anti-life.

[Ashmoria]

I'm pro-life, and it makes sense that I think that the fact that the doctor is NOT LIVING is important.


My first post ever! Hooray!

you mean important as in "murder is wrong and the man who killed dr tiller and those who encouraged him should face the full penalty of the law?"

[Bottle]

I'm pro-life, and it makes sense that I think that the fact that the doctor is NOT LIVING is important.


My first post ever! Hooray!

you mean important as in "murder is wrong and the man who killed dr tiller and those who encouraged him should face the full penalty of the law?"

Dr. Tiller was a BORN human being. Those aren't nearly as important.

[Ashmoria]

I'm pro-life, and it makes sense that I think that the fact that the doctor is NOT LIVING is important.


My first post ever! Hooray!

you mean important as in "murder is wrong and the man who killed dr tiller and those who encouraged him should face the full penalty of the law?"

Dr. Tiller was a BORN human being. Those aren't nearly as important.

so it seems.

its alarming how anti-abortion activists get the support of their christian fundamentalist crowds through lies. (granted that they would only have a fraction of the support if they were truthful about how few babies can be saved through banning late term abortions). the head of operation rescue said he hopes that this murder wont dampen the enthusiasm of anti-abortion activists or cause them to tone down their rhetoric.

[Grabadadon]

I can't help but think we'd be better off without having to deal with all manner of radicals, whatever their position is on any particular subject. 'This whole rabid frothing at the mouth and going batshit insane over things needs to stop somewhere.

Here here! Opinions are just like (insert anatomy term here). Everyone has one. And they shouldn't go putting it in other peoples faces.

[JarVik]

Assassinating Abortion Doctors isn't terrorisim in the same way that Taliban assassinating teachers of female students isn't terrorisim.

Yes I'm being sarcastic. The means (murder) and the motives (moral outrage on religious grounds) are the same.

[Calvinsjoy]

And, lest you forget, c. 40,000,000 deaths by abortion... but of course that's not important in the face of choice. Here is what I really find odd about this thread. Where has there been any report that the killer was pro or anti anything? On what evidence are people deciding this had anything to do with abortion. It is the usual mindless lemmings being led about by the manipulative media trying to sell an ideology...

Because Dr Tiller was a prominent abortion doctor, anti-abortion groups have killed such people before, and Dr Tiller has been previously attacked by anti-abortion campaigners. As a result, it's a pretty safe assumption that this one is also linked to abortion.

I'm ignoring the rest of the crap in that post.

Ah yes.... assumptions...! Did this murderer act on some twisted ideology crazily justifying the taking of life to protect life? Possibly - maybe even probably. But where is the evidence? In a nation of laws, that matters.

[Free Soviets]

Ah yes.... assumptions...! Did this murderer act on some twisted ideology crazily justifying the taking of life to protect life? Possibly - maybe even probably. But where is the evidence? In a nation of laws, that matters.

the car that fled the scene was picked up. the guy in it was a known right wing anti-abortion nutjob who has already served time for getting caught with a bomb. read the thread.

[The Tofu Islands]

Ah yes.... assumptions...! Did this murderer act on some twisted ideology crazily justifying the taking of life to protect life? Possibly - maybe even probably. But where is the evidence? In a nation of laws, that matters.

Firstly, they are only assumptions. It's not like we're categorically claiming "this is the case", all that's being said is "this seems likely". Secondly, the main suspect was involved in anti-abortion stuff already. Thirdly, evidence will be searched for by the police, and so far it seems that he may very well have acted on some twisted ideology etc.

[Tmutarakhan]

Of course, my half-baked plan would go hand in hand with making less abortions be sought in the first place. Ideally, the state at which no abortions are sought would achieved before the other half of the plan.

There is one kind of abortion whose necessity we cannot do anything whatsoever to eliminate or even decrease: the tragic cases in which it is discovered very late that the fetus is terribly malformed, the delivery will kill the mother or make it impossible for her to get pregnant again, the child is unlikely to survive and will know only suffering in its brief existence, etc.

In such cases, the "Christian" position is that the mother and baby should both suffer and die, and any doctor who would offer an alternative should be terrorized until he stops practicing.

[Free Soviets]

well well well

http://www.fox4kc.com/news/wdaf-george- ... 9215.story

The man being held in connection with the investigation is Scott Roader, 51, of Merriam, Kan. The FBI confirmed a home at 51st & Knox is part of the investigation. Johnson County property records show ties between the home and Roeder.
...
Neighbors said they've seen a similar car at the house in Merriam. They describe the ongoings at the house as strange. They said it's a revolving door of men coming and staying there and describe what appear to be religious gatherings.

sounds like there may be more people involved in this.

so, is it time to break out the enhanced torture interrogation methods for terrorists yet? i want confessions implicating the pope and george w bush by tomorrow.

and more
http://blogs.pitch.com/plog/2009/06/ins ... of_the.php

KMBC Channel 9 captured this shot of a phone number to anti-abortion group Operation Rescue inside the car of Scott Roeder, the man suspected of shooting and killing Wichita abortion doctor George Tiller Sunday morning at a Wichita church.

The phone number is written on an envelope with the name "Cheryl" and "Op Rescue." Cheryl is Cheryl Sullenger, Operation Rescue's senior policy adviser, who in 1988 was convicted of conspiring to bomb a California abortion clinic. She served two years in prison.

Sullenger tells The Pitch that she hasn't spoken with Roeder recently.

"No, he hasn't called me recently," Sullenger said. "No."

'no, not recently'. oh wow.

[Chumblywumbly]

From now on, I'm going to call this ideology by the correct and appropriate name of Anti-life.

Why not go the whole hog and call them the Nasty-Smelly-Wrong-Bad crowd?


Weasel words are silly.

[K-Core]

Listen wether you liked the man or not there is one thing you don't do and that is gun a man down in or in front of a church, whether you belong to that religion or not that is sacred ground.

[Hayteria]

its alarming how anti-abortion activists get the support of their christian fundamentalist crowds through lies.

Doesn't "christian fundamentalism" actually mean "taking the bible literally" to begin with? If that's the case, then I think it's quite obvious why Christian fundamentalists are so vulnerable to lies; because that's WHY they're Christian fundamentalists in the first place...

[Muravyets]

Sorry, I'm late. Pretty much all has already been said, both the true things -- that this was a disgusting act of terrorism and murder committed by a bastard who connects himself to a movement that seeks nothing less than to strip women of their rights and hold their lives ransom to the power of others -- and the usual bullshit -- like "it's just assumptions" that the anti-choice movement had anything to do with this murder. Yeah, the same anti-choice movement that is right now simultaneously praising this vicious crime and disavowing any responsibility for it. What miserable scum.

[Kayellistan]

I'd like to gravitate more towards the original question. I'm not getting into the abortion debate again on this thread.

But I'd like to state this point: If we define an act of terrorism that is something that is supposed to install fear in other people, then one assassination may well be an act of terrorism. Say for example, if a prominent political figure would be murdered - would that not be considered an act of terrorism? From what I understand, Dr. Tiller was a well-known abortion doctor. It is easy to say he was a target, and brought it on himself. But one could also look at it another way: he could be an *example*. And this, of course, brings it much closer to the realm of terrorism.

Basically the message becomes: if you dare do this, prepare for retribution.

Seeing it in that light, it is a form of terrorism. Anyone who works at an abortion clinic, or even the patients themselves, become targets. This, de facto, will stop some people from working or getting help there out of fear. Therefore, one can see it as forcing your views on people by creation an atmosphere of fear. Thus, terrorism.


But hey, we only really want to call it terrorism when Muslims are involved....

[Saint Jade IV]

I find it interesting that so many people are asking us to sit back and not make "assumptions" about the killer's motives in this case. I wonder if those same people will be so quick to not make assumptions the next time there is a terrorist attack committed by a Muslim suicide bomber or assassin?

This man was quite clearly, based on the EVIDENCE, murdered because he did something so brave, selfless and noble. He treated women like human beings in a time of crisis.

[No true scotsman]

It probably won't be counted as terrorism, but it should be.

We've had a catalog of attacks in this country, over the last few years - destruction and death directed against people that performed an action that is legal, in order to try to change that behaviour.

It's pretty much definitive 'terrorism', but I don't think the courts or the government are going to SAY that, because it's bad politics.

[Skama]

Basically the message becomes: if you dare do this, prepare for retribution.

Doesn't that make police terrorists or judges?