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Americans Becoming More Pro-Life

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On the issue of abortion, do you consider yourself pro-life or pro-choice?

Pro-life (American)
255
25%
Pro-life (non-American)
65
6%
Pro-choice (American)
391
39%
Pro-choice (non-American)
245
24%
No opinion (American)
28
3%
No opinion (non-American)
17
2%
 
Total votes : 1001

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Christian Democrats
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Posts: 10089
Founded: Jul 29, 2009
New York Times Democracy

Postby Christian Democrats » Fri Jun 08, 2012 8:24 pm

Tlaceceyaya wrote:
Christian Democrats wrote:Thank you for providing a copy of the Wikipedia article, which has no source, on a different site.

No one has proven that humans can be haploid.

It is not a copy of it. It is unrelated to wikipedia.

Ploidy is the number of sets of chromosomes in a biological cell.

Human sex cells (sperm and egg) have one complete set of chromosomes from the male or female parent. Sex cells, also called gametes, combine to produce somatic cells. Somatic cells, therefore, have twice as many chromosomes. The haploid number (n) is the number of chromosomes in a gamete. A somatic cell has twice that many chromosomes (2n).

Humans are diploid. A human somatic cell contains 46 chromosomes: 2 complete haploid sets, which make up 23 homologous chromosome pairs. However, many organisms have more than two sets of homologous chromosomes and are called polyploid.

The number of chromosomes in a single (non-homologous) set is called the monoploid number (x), and is distinct from the haploid number (n). Both numbers n, and x, apply to every cell of a given organism. For humans, x = n = 23, which is also written as 2n = 2x = 46. Bread wheat is an organism where x and n differ. It has six sets of chromosomes, two sets from each of three different diploid species that are its distant ancestors. The somatic cells are hexaploid, with six sets of chromosomes, 2n = 6x = 42. The gametes are both haploid and triploid, with three sets of chromosomes. The monoploid number x = 7, and the haploid number n = 21.

Tetraploidy (four sets of chromosomes, 2n = 4x) is common in plants, and also occurs in amphibians, reptiles, and insects.

The Australian bulldog ant, Myrmecia pilosula, a haplodiploid species, has n = x = 1, the lowest chromosome number theoretically possible. Haploid individuals of this species have a single chromosome, and diploid individuals have two chromosomes.

Euploidy is the state of a cell or organism having an integral multiple of the monoploid number, possibly excluding the sex-determining chromosomes. For example, a human cell has 46 chromosomes, which is an integer multiple of the monoploid number, 23. A human with abnormal, but integral, multiples of this full set (e.g. 69 chromosomes) would also be considered as euploid. Aneuploidy is the state of not having euploidy. In humans, examples include having a single extra chromosome (such as Down syndrome), or missing a chromosome (such as Turner syndrome). Aneuploid karyotypes are given names with the suffix -somy (rather than -ploidy, used for euploid karyotypes), such as trisomy and monosomy.

Etymology

The term ploidy is a back-formation from haploid and diploid. These two terms are from Greek ἁπλόος haplóos "single" and διπλόος diplóos "double" combined with εἶδος eîdos "form" (compare idol from Latin īdōlum, that from Greek εἴδωλον eídōlon derived from εἶδος eîdos). The two haploid and diploid terms were borrowed from German through William Henry Lang's 1908 translation of a 1894 textbook by Eduard Strasburger and colleagues. Strasburger used diploid to refer to an organism with twice the number of chromosomes of a haploid organism, hence "double" and "single".

Haploid and monoploid

The haploid number (n) is the number of chromosomes in a gamete of an individual. This is distinct from the monoploid number (x), which is the number of unique chromosomes in a single complete set. Gametes (sperm, and ova) are haploid cells. The haploid gametes produced by (most) diploid organisms are monoploid, and these can combine to form a diploid zygote. For example, most animals are diploid and produce monoploid gametes.

During meiosis, sex cell precursors have their number of chromosomes halved by randomly "choosing" one homologue, resulting in haploid gametes. Because homologous chromosomes usually differ genetically, gametes usually differ genetically from one another.

All plants and many fungi and algae switch between a haploid and a diploid state (which may be polyploid), with one of the stages emphasized over the other. This is called alternation of generations. Most fungi and algae are haploid during the principal stage of their lifecycle.

Male bees, wasps, and ants are haploid organisms because of the way they develop from unfertilized, haploid egg cells.

In humans, the monoploid number (x) equals the haploid number (n), x = n = 23, but, in some species (especially plants), these numbers differ. Common wheat has six sets of chromosomes in the somatic cells, derived from its three different ancestral species. The gametes of common wheat are considered to be haploid, since they contain half the genetic information of somatic cells, but are not monoploid, as they still contain three complete sets of chromosomes (n = 3x).

Diploid

Diploid (indicated by 2n = 2x) cells have two homologous copies of each chromosome, usually one from the mother and one from the father. Nearly all mammals are diploid organisms (the tetraploid viscacha rats Pipanacoctomys aureus and Tympanoctomys barrerae are the only known exceptions as of 2004), although all individuals have some small fraction of cells that display polyploidy. Human diploid cells have 46 chromosomes and human haploid gametes (egg and sperm) have 23 chromosomes.

Retroviruses that contain two copies of their RNA genome in each viral particle are also said to be diploid. Examples include human foamy virus, human T-lymphotropic virus, and HIV.

Homoploid

"Homoploid" means "at the same ploidy level", i.e. having the same number of homologous chromosomes. For example, homoploid hybridization is hybridization where the offspring have the same ploidy level as the two parental species. This contrasts with a common situation in plants where chromosome doubling accompanies, or happens soon after hybridization. Similarly, homoploid speciation contrasts with polyploid speciation.

Haploidisation

Haploidisation (haploidization) is the process of creating a haploid cell (usually from a diploid cell).

A laboratory procedure called haploidisation forces a normal cell to expel half of its chromosomal complement. In mammals this renders this cell chromosomally equal to sperm or egg. This was one of the procedures used by Japanese researchers to produce Kaguya, a fatherless mouse.

Haploidisation sometimes occurs in plants when meiotically reduced cells (usually egg cells) develop by parthenogenesis.

A rare genetic disorder that has occurred in a total of 7 recorded cases is Detrimental Haploidy Syndrome where the somatic cells of the human body are haploid after the first division of cells from fertilisation. As a result of this a human with this syndrome is unfortunately prone to other diseases and unable to reproduce.

Zygoidy and azygoidy

Zygoidy is the state where the chromosomes are paired and can undergo meiosis. The zygoid state of a species may be diploid or polyploid. In the azygoid state the chromosomes are unpaired. It may be the natural state of some asexual species or may occur after meiosis. In diploid organisms the azygoid state is monoploid. (see below for dihaploidy)

Polyploidy

Main article: Polyploidy
Polyploidy is the state where all cells have multiple sets of chromosomes beyond the basic set, for example, in triploids 2n = 3x, in tetraploids 2n = 4x. The chromosome sets may be from the same species or from closely related species. In the latter case, these are known as allopolyploids (or amphidiploids, which are allopolyploids that behave as if they were normal diploids). Allopolyploids are formed from the hybridization of two separate species. In plants, this probably most often occurs from the pairing of meiotically unreduced gametes, and not by diploid–diploid hybridization followed by chromosome doubling. The so-called Brassica triangle is an example of allopolyploidy, where three different parent species have hybridized in all possible pair combinations to produce three new species.

Polyploidy occurs commonly in plants, but rarely in animals. Even in diploid organisms, many somatic cells are polyploid due to a process called endoreduplication where duplication of the genome occurs without mitosis (cell division).

The extreme in polyploidy occurs in the fern genus Ophioglossum, the adder's-tongues, in which polyploidy results in chromosome counts in the hundreds, or, in at least one case, well over one thousand.

Variable or indefinite ploidy

Depending on growth conditions, prokaryotes such as bacteria may have a chromosome copy number of 1 to 4, and that number is commonly fractional, counting portions of the chromosome partly replicated at a given time. This is because under exponential growth conditions the cells are able to replicate their DNA faster than they can divide.

Mixoploidy

Mixoploidy refers to the presence of two cell lines, one diploid and one polyploid. Though polyploidy in humans is not viable, mixoploidy has been found in live adults and children. There are two types: diploid-triploid mixoploidy, in which some cells have 46 chromosomes and some have 69, and diploid-tetraploid mixoploidy, in which some cells have 46 and some have 92 chromosomes.

Dihaploidy and polyhaploidy

Not to be confused with haplodiploidy (where diploid and haploid individuals are different sexes)
Dihaploid and polyhaploid cells are formed by haploidisation of polyploids, i.e., by halving the chromosome constitution.

Dihaploids (which are diploid) are important for selective breeding of tetraploid crop plants (notably potatoes), because selection is faster with diploids than with tetraploids. Tetraploids can be reconstituted from the diploids, for example by somatic fusion.

The term “dihaploid” was coined by Bender to combine in one word the number of genome copies (diploid) and their origin (haploid). The term is well established in this original sense, but it has also been used for doubled monoploids or doubled haploids, which are homozygous and used for genetic research.

Possible adaptive/ecological significance of variation in ploidy

A study comparing the karyotypes of endangered or invasive plants with those of their relatives found that being polyploid as opposed to diploid is associated with a 14% lower risk of being endangered, and a 20% greater chance of being invasive. Polyploidy may be associated with increased vigor and adaptability.

^ Crosland, M. W. J.; Crozier, R. H. (1986). "Myrmecia pilosula, an Ant with Only One Pair of Chromosomes". Science 231 (4743): 1278. Bibcode 1986Sci...231.1278C. DOI:10.1126/science.231.4743.1278. PMID 17839565. edit
^ Strasburger, E.; Noll, F.; Schenck, H.; Karsten, G. 1908. A Textbook of botany, a translation by W. H. Lang of Lehrbuch der Botanik für Hochschulen. Macmillan, London.
^ Gallardo, M. H. et al. (2004). Whole-genome duplications in South American desert rodents (Octodontidae). Biological Journal of the Linnean Society, 82, 443-451.
^ http://web.uct.ac.za/depts/mmi/jmoodie/hiv2.html
^ Books, Elsevier Science & Technology (1950-01-01). Advances in Genetics. Academic Press. ISBN 978-0-12-017603-8.
^ Cosín, Darío J. Díaz, Marta Novo, and Rosa Fernández. “Reproduction of Earthworms: Sexual Selection and Parthenogenesis.” In Biology of Earthworms, edited by Ayten Karaca, 24:69-86. Berlin, Heidelberg: Springer Berlin Heidelberg, 2011. http://www.springerlink.com/content/j5j72p2834355w27/.
^ Ramsey, J.; Schemske, D. W. (2002). "Neopolyploidy in Flowering Plants". Annual Review of Ecology and Systematics 33: 589. DOI:10.1146/annurev.ecolsys.33.010802.150437. http://www.plantbiology.msu.edu/files/R ... 289%29.pdf. edit
^ Bender, K. 1963. “Über die Erzeugung und Entstehung dihaploider Pflanzen bei Solanum tuberosum”. Zeitschrift für Pflanzenzüchtung 50: 141–166.
^ Nogler, G.A. 1984. Gametophytic apomixis. In Embryology of angiosperms. Edited by B.M. Johri. Springer, Berlin, Germany. pp. 475–518.
^ * Pehu, E. 1996. The current status of knowledge on the cellular biology of potato. Potato Research 39: 429–435.
^ * Sprague, G.F., Russell, W.A., and Penny, L.H. 1960. Mutations affecting quantitative traits in the selfed progeny of double monoploid maize stocks. Genetics 45(7): 855–866.
^ Pandit, M. K.; Pocock, M. J. O.; Kunin, W. E. (2011-03-28). "Ploidy influences rarity and invasiveness in plants". Journal of Ecology (Wiley-Blackwell) 99. DOI:10.1111/j.1365-2745.2011.01838.x.
^ Gilbert, Natasha (2011-04-06). "Ecologists find genomic clues to invasive and endangered plants". Nature News (Nature Publishing Group). DOI:10.1038/news.2011.213. http://www.nature.com/news/2011/110406/ ... 13.html#B1. Retrieved 2011-04-07.
Bibliography

Griffiths, A. J. et al. 2000. An introduction to genetic analysis, 7th ed. W. H. Freeman, New York ISBN 0-7167-3520-2


Ploidy is the number of sets of chromosomes in a biological cell.

Human sex cells (sperm and egg) have one complete set of chromosomes from the male or female parent. Sex cells, also called gametes, combine to produce somatic cells. Somatic cells, therefore, have twice as many chromosomes. The haploid number (n) is the number of chromosomes in a gamete. A somatic cell has twice that many chromosomes (2n).

Humans are diploid. A human somatic cell contains 46 chromosomes: 2 complete haploid sets, which make up 23 homologous chromosome pairs. However, many organisms have more than two sets of homologous chromosomes and are called polyploid.
The number of chromosomes in a single (non-homologous) set is called the monoploid number (x), and is distinct from the haploid number (n). Both numbers n, and x, apply to every cell of a given organism. For humans, x = n = 23, which is also written as 2n = 2x = 46. Bread wheat is an organism where x and n differ. It has six sets of chromosomes, two sets from each of three different diploid species that are its distant ancestors. The somatic cells are hexaploid, with six sets of chromosomes, 2n = 6x = 42. The gametes are both haploid and triploid, with three sets of chromosomes. The monoploid number x = 7, and the haploid number n = 21.

Tetraploidy (four sets of chromosomes, 2n = 4x) is common in plants, and also occurs in amphibians, reptiles, and insects.
The Australian bulldog ant, Myrmecia pilosula, a haplodiploid species, has n = x = 1, the lowest chromosome number theoretically possible.[1] Haploid individuals of this species have a single chromosome, and diploid individuals have two chromosomes.

Euploidy is the state of a cell or organism having an integral multiple of the monoploid number, possibly excluding the sex-determining chromosomes. For example, a human cell has 46 chromosomes, which is an integer multiple of the monoploid number, 23. A human with abnormal, but integral, multiples of this full set (e.g. 69 chromosomes) would also be considered as euploid. Aneuploidy is the state of not having euploidy. In humans, examples include having a single extra chromosome (such as Down syndrome), or missing a chromosome (such as Turner syndrome). Aneuploid karyotypes are given names with the suffix -somy (rather than -ploidy, used for euploid karyotypes), such as trisomy and monosomy.

Etymology

The term ploidy is a back-formation from haploid and diploid. These two terms are from Greek ἁπλόος haplóos "single" and διπλόος diplóos "double" combined with εἶδος eîdos "form" (compare idol from Latin īdōlum, that from Greek εἴδωλον eídōlon derived from εἶδος eîdos). The two haploid and diploid terms were borrowed from German through William Henry Lang's 1908 translation of a 1894 textbook by Eduard Strasburger and colleagues.[2] Strasburger used diploid to refer to an organism with twice the number of chromosomes of a haploid organism, hence "double" and "single".
[edit]Haploid and monoploid

The haploid number (n) is the number of chromosomes in a gamete of an individual. This is distinct from the monoploid number (x), which is the number of unique chromosomes in a single complete set. Gametes (sperm, and ova) are haploid cells. The haploid gametes produced by (most) diploid organisms are monoploid, and these can combine to form a diploid zygote. For example, most animals are diploid and produce monoploid gametes.
During meiosis, sex cell precursors have their number of chromosomes halved by randomly "choosing" one homologue, resulting in haploid gametes. Because homologous chromosomes usually differ genetically, gametes usually differ genetically from one another.
All plants and many fungi and algae switch between a haploid and a diploid state (which may be polyploid), with one of the stages emphasized over the other. This is called alternation of generations. Most fungi and algae are haploid during the principal stage of their lifecycle.
Male bees, wasps, and ants are haploid organisms because of the way they develop from unfertilized, haploid egg cells.
In humans, the monoploid number (x) equals the haploid number (n), x = n = 23, but, in some species (especially plants), these numbers differ. Common wheat has six sets of chromosomes in the somatic cells, derived from its three different ancestral species. The gametes of common wheat are considered to be haploid, since they contain half the genetic information of somatic cells, but are not monoploid, as they still contain three complete sets of chromosomes (n = 3x).
[edit]Diploid

Diploid (indicated by 2n = 2x) cells have two homologous copies of each chromosome, usually one from the mother and one from the father. Nearly all mammals are diploid organisms (the tetraploid viscacha rats Pipanacoctomys aureus and Tympanoctomys barrerae are the only known exceptions as of 2004[3]), although all individuals have some small fraction of cells that display polyploidy. Human diploid cells have 46 chromosomes and human haploid gametes (egg and sperm) have 23 chromosomes.
Retroviruses that contain two copies of their RNA genome in each viral particle are also said to be diploid. Examples include human foamy virus, human T-lymphotropic virus, and HIV.[4]
[edit]Homoploid

"Homoploid" means "at the same ploidy level", i.e. having the same number of homologous chromosomes. For example, homoploid hybridization is hybridization where the offspring have the same ploidy level as the two parental species. This contrasts with a common situation in plants where chromosome doubling accompanies, or happens soon after hybridization. Similarly, homoploid speciation contrasts with polyploid speciation.
[edit]Haploidisation

Haploidisation (haploidization) is the process of creating a haploid cell (usually from a diploid cell).
A laboratory procedure called haploidisation forces a normal cell to expel half of its chromosomal complement. In mammals this renders this cell chromosomally equal to sperm or egg. This was one of the procedures used by Japanese researchers to produce Kaguya, a fatherless mouse.
Haploidisation sometimes occurs in plants when meiotically reduced cells (usually egg cells) develop by parthenogenesis.
A rare genetic disorder that has occurred in a total of 7 recorded cases is Detrimental Haploidy Syndrome where the somatic cells of the human body are haploid after the first division of cells from fertilisation.[citation needed] As a result of this a human with this syndrome is unfortunately prone to other diseases and unable to reproduce.
[edit]Zygoidy and azygoidy

Zygoidy is the state where the chromosomes are paired and can undergo meiosis. The zygoid state of a species may be diploid or polyploid.[5][6] In the azygoid state the chromosomes are unpaired. It may be the natural state of some asexual species or may occur after meiosis. In diploid organisms the azygoid state is monoploid. (see below for dihaploidy)
[edit]Polyploidy

Main article: Polyploidy
Polyploidy is the state where all cells have multiple sets of chromosomes beyond the basic set, for example, in triploids 2n = 3x, in tetraploids 2n = 4x. The chromosome sets may be from the same species or from closely related species. In the latter case, these are known as allopolyploids (or amphidiploids, which are allopolyploids that behave as if they were normal diploids). Allopolyploids are formed from the hybridization of two separate species. In plants, this probably most often occurs from the pairing of meiotically unreduced gametes, and not by diploid–diploid hybridization followed by chromosome doubling.[7] The so-called Brassica triangle is an example of allopolyploidy, where three different parent species have hybridized in all possible pair combinations to produce three new species.
Polyploidy occurs commonly in plants, but rarely in animals. Even in diploid organisms, many somatic cells are polyploid due to a process called endoreduplication where duplication of the genome occurs without mitosis (cell division).
The extreme in polyploidy occurs in the fern genus Ophioglossum, the adder's-tongues, in which polyploidy results in chromosome counts in the hundreds, or, in at least one case, well over one thousand.
[edit]Variable or indefinite ploidy

Depending on growth conditions, prokaryotes such as bacteria may have a chromosome copy number of 1 to 4, and that number is commonly fractional, counting portions of the chromosome partly replicated at a given time. This is because under exponential growth conditions the cells are able to replicate their DNA faster than they can divide.
[edit]Mixoploidy

Mixoploidy refers to the presence of two cell lines, one diploid and one polyploid. Though polyploidy in humans is not viable, mixoploidy has been found in live adults and children. There are two types: diploid-triploid mixoploidy, in which some cells have 46 chromosomes and some have 69, and diploid-tetraploid mixoploidy, in which some cells have 46 and some have 92 chromosomes.
[edit]Dihaploidy and polyhaploidy

Not to be confused with haplodiploidy (where diploid and haploid individuals are different sexes)
Dihaploid and polyhaploid cells are formed by haploidisation of polyploids, i.e., by halving the chromosome constitution.
Dihaploids (which are diploid) are important for selective breeding of tetraploid crop plants (notably potatoes), because selection is faster with diploids than with tetraploids. Tetraploids can be reconstituted from the diploids, for example by somatic fusion.
The term “dihaploid” was coined by Bender[8] to combine in one word the number of genome copies (diploid) and their origin (haploid). The term is well established in this original sense,[9][10] but it has also been used for doubled monoploids or doubled haploids, which are homozygous and used for genetic research.[11]
[edit]Possible adaptive/ecological significance of variation in ploidy

A study comparing the karyotypes of endangered or invasive plants with those of their relatives found that being polyploid as opposed to diploid is associated with a 14% lower risk of being endangered, and a 20% greater chance of being invasive.[12] Polyploidy may be associated with increased vigor and adaptability.[13]
[edit]References

^ Crosland, M. W. J.; Crozier, R. H. (1986). "Myrmecia pilosula, an Ant with Only One Pair of Chromosomes". Science 231 (4743): 1278. Bibcode 1986Sci...231.1278C. DOI:10.1126/science.231.4743.1278. PMID 17839565. edit
^ Strasburger, E.; Noll, F.; Schenck, H.; Karsten, G. 1908. A Textbook of botany, a translation by W. H. Lang of Lehrbuch der Botanik für Hochschulen. Macmillan, London.
^ Gallardo, M. H. et al. (2004). Whole-genome duplications in South American desert rodents (Octodontidae). Biological Journal of the Linnean Society, 82, 443-451.
^ http://web.uct.ac.za/depts/mmi/jmoodie/hiv2.html
^ Books, Elsevier Science & Technology (1950-01-01). Advances in Genetics. Academic Press. ISBN 978-0-12-017603-8.
^ Cosín, Darío J. Díaz, Marta Novo, and Rosa Fernández. “Reproduction of Earthworms: Sexual Selection and Parthenogenesis.” In Biology of Earthworms, edited by Ayten Karaca, 24:69-86. Berlin, Heidelberg: Springer Berlin Heidelberg, 2011. http://www.springerlink.com/content/j5j72p2834355w27/.
^ Ramsey, J.; Schemske, D. W. (2002). "Neopolyploidy in Flowering Plants". Annual Review of Ecology and Systematics 33: 589. DOI:10.1146/annurev.ecolsys.33.010802.150437. edit
^ Bender, K. 1963. “Über die Erzeugung und Entstehung dihaploider Pflanzen bei Solanum tuberosum”. Zeitschrift für Pflanzenzüchtung 50: 141–166.
^ Nogler, G.A. 1984. Gametophytic apomixis. In Embryology of angiosperms. Edited by B.M. Johri. Springer, Berlin, Germany. pp. 475–518.
^ * Pehu, E. 1996. The current status of knowledge on the cellular biology of potato. Potato Research 39: 429–435.
^ * Sprague, G.F., Russell, W.A., and Penny, L.H. 1960. Mutations affecting quantitative traits in the selfed progeny of double monoploid maize stocks. Genetics 45(7): 855–866.
^ Pandit, M. K.; Pocock, M. J. O.; Kunin, W. E. (2011-03-28). "Ploidy influences rarity and invasiveness in plants". Journal of Ecology (Wiley-Blackwell) 99. DOI:10.1111/j.1365-2745.2011.01838.x.
^ Gilbert, Natasha (2011-04-06). "Ecologists find genomic clues to invasive and endangered plants". Nature News (Nature Publishing Group). DOI:10.1038/news.2011.213. Retrieved 2011-04-07.
[edit]Bibliography

Griffiths, A. J. et al. 2000. An introduction to genetic analysis, 7th ed. W. H. Freeman, New York ISBN 0-7167-3520-2


I guess I'm crazy then. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ploidy
Leo Tolstoy wrote:Wrong does not cease to be wrong because the majority share in it.
GA#160: Forced Marriages Ban Act (79%)
GA#175: Organ and Blood Donations Act (68%)^
SC#082: Repeal "Liberate Catholic" (80%)
GA#200: Foreign Marriage Recognition (54%)
GA#213: Privacy Protection Act (70%)
GA#231: Marital Rape Justice Act (81%)^
GA#233: Ban Profits on Workers' Deaths (80%)*
GA#249: Stopping Suicide Seeds (70%)^
GA#253: Repeal "Freedom in Medical Research" (76%)
GA#285: Assisted Suicide Act (70%)^
GA#310: Disabled Voters Act (81%)
GA#373: Repeal "Convention on Execution" (54%)
GA#468: Prohibit Private Prisons (57%)^

* denotes coauthorship
^ repealed resolution
#360: Electile Dysfunction
#452: Foetal Furore
#560: Bicameral Backlash
#570: Clerical Errors

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Seperates
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Posts: 14622
Founded: Sep 03, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby Seperates » Fri Jun 08, 2012 8:24 pm

Christian Democrats wrote:A defective human somatic cell can be haploid, but an entire human being cannot be haploid.

Hypothetically, a haploid cell resulting from an error in the first division of a zygote would lead to a spontaneous abortion almost immediately thereafter because a human being cannot be haploid.

Therefore, it is fallacious to equate human gametes with unborn humans because gametes are haploid, whereas unborn humans, like born humans, have full sets of genetic information (give or take a little because of the potential for genetic defects). Human beings, born and unborn, are diploid creatures.

So basically, excluding sex chromosomes, humans must be diploid.
This Debate is simply an exercise in Rhetoric. Truth is a fickle being with no intentions of showing itself today.

Non fui, fui, non sum, non curo

"The most important fact about us: that we are greater than the institutions and cultures we build."--Roberto Mangabeira Unger

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Christian Democrats
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 10089
Founded: Jul 29, 2009
New York Times Democracy

Postby Christian Democrats » Fri Jun 08, 2012 8:27 pm

Seperates wrote:
Christian Democrats wrote:A defective human somatic cell can be haploid, but an entire human being cannot be haploid.

Hypothetically, a haploid cell resulting from an error in the first division of a zygote would lead to a spontaneous abortion almost immediately thereafter because a human being cannot be haploid.

Therefore, it is fallacious to equate human gametes with unborn humans because gametes are haploid, whereas unborn humans, like born humans, have full sets of genetic information (give or take a little because of the potential for genetic defects). Human beings, born and unborn, are diploid creatures.

So basically, excluding sex chromosomes, humans must be diploid.

Yes, humans must be diploid. Only human gametes are haploid (a defective gamete can be diploid).

A haploid human somatic cell is a defect that dies. No human can be haploid.
Leo Tolstoy wrote:Wrong does not cease to be wrong because the majority share in it.
GA#160: Forced Marriages Ban Act (79%)
GA#175: Organ and Blood Donations Act (68%)^
SC#082: Repeal "Liberate Catholic" (80%)
GA#200: Foreign Marriage Recognition (54%)
GA#213: Privacy Protection Act (70%)
GA#231: Marital Rape Justice Act (81%)^
GA#233: Ban Profits on Workers' Deaths (80%)*
GA#249: Stopping Suicide Seeds (70%)^
GA#253: Repeal "Freedom in Medical Research" (76%)
GA#285: Assisted Suicide Act (70%)^
GA#310: Disabled Voters Act (81%)
GA#373: Repeal "Convention on Execution" (54%)
GA#468: Prohibit Private Prisons (57%)^

* denotes coauthorship
^ repealed resolution
#360: Electile Dysfunction
#452: Foetal Furore
#560: Bicameral Backlash
#570: Clerical Errors

User avatar
Seperates
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 14622
Founded: Sep 03, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby Seperates » Fri Jun 08, 2012 8:34 pm

Christian Democrats wrote:
Seperates wrote:So basically, excluding sex chromosomes, humans must be diploid.

Yes, humans must be diploid. Only human gametes are haploid (a defective gamete can be diploid).

A haploid human somatic cell is a defect that dies. No human can be haploid.

Ah, evolution.
This Debate is simply an exercise in Rhetoric. Truth is a fickle being with no intentions of showing itself today.

Non fui, fui, non sum, non curo

"The most important fact about us: that we are greater than the institutions and cultures we build."--Roberto Mangabeira Unger

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Tlaceceyaya
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Founded: Oct 17, 2011
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Tlaceceyaya » Fri Jun 08, 2012 8:36 pm

Christian Democrats wrote:
Tlaceceyaya wrote:It is not a copy of it. It is unrelated to wikipedia.

Ploidy is the number of sets of chromosomes in a biological cell.

Human sex cells (sperm and egg) have one complete set of chromosomes from the male or female parent. Sex cells, also called gametes, combine to produce somatic cells. Somatic cells, therefore, have twice as many chromosomes. The haploid number (n) is the number of chromosomes in a gamete. A somatic cell has twice that many chromosomes (2n).

Humans are diploid. A human somatic cell contains 46 chromosomes: 2 complete haploid sets, which make up 23 homologous chromosome pairs. However, many organisms have more than two sets of homologous chromosomes and are called polyploid.

The number of chromosomes in a single (non-homologous) set is called the monoploid number (x), and is distinct from the haploid number (n). Both numbers n, and x, apply to every cell of a given organism. For humans, x = n = 23, which is also written as 2n = 2x = 46. Bread wheat is an organism where x and n differ. It has six sets of chromosomes, two sets from each of three different diploid species that are its distant ancestors. The somatic cells are hexaploid, with six sets of chromosomes, 2n = 6x = 42. The gametes are both haploid and triploid, with three sets of chromosomes. The monoploid number x = 7, and the haploid number n = 21.

Tetraploidy (four sets of chromosomes, 2n = 4x) is common in plants, and also occurs in amphibians, reptiles, and insects.

The Australian bulldog ant, Myrmecia pilosula, a haplodiploid species, has n = x = 1, the lowest chromosome number theoretically possible. Haploid individuals of this species have a single chromosome, and diploid individuals have two chromosomes.

Euploidy is the state of a cell or organism having an integral multiple of the monoploid number, possibly excluding the sex-determining chromosomes. For example, a human cell has 46 chromosomes, which is an integer multiple of the monoploid number, 23. A human with abnormal, but integral, multiples of this full set (e.g. 69 chromosomes) would also be considered as euploid. Aneuploidy is the state of not having euploidy. In humans, examples include having a single extra chromosome (such as Down syndrome), or missing a chromosome (such as Turner syndrome). Aneuploid karyotypes are given names with the suffix -somy (rather than -ploidy, used for euploid karyotypes), such as trisomy and monosomy.

Etymology

The term ploidy is a back-formation from haploid and diploid. These two terms are from Greek ἁπλόος haplóos "single" and διπλόος diplóos "double" combined with εἶδος eîdos "form" (compare idol from Latin īdōlum, that from Greek εἴδωλον eídōlon derived from εἶδος eîdos). The two haploid and diploid terms were borrowed from German through William Henry Lang's 1908 translation of a 1894 textbook by Eduard Strasburger and colleagues. Strasburger used diploid to refer to an organism with twice the number of chromosomes of a haploid organism, hence "double" and "single".

Haploid and monoploid

The haploid number (n) is the number of chromosomes in a gamete of an individual. This is distinct from the monoploid number (x), which is the number of unique chromosomes in a single complete set. Gametes (sperm, and ova) are haploid cells. The haploid gametes produced by (most) diploid organisms are monoploid, and these can combine to form a diploid zygote. For example, most animals are diploid and produce monoploid gametes.

During meiosis, sex cell precursors have their number of chromosomes halved by randomly "choosing" one homologue, resulting in haploid gametes. Because homologous chromosomes usually differ genetically, gametes usually differ genetically from one another.

All plants and many fungi and algae switch between a haploid and a diploid state (which may be polyploid), with one of the stages emphasized over the other. This is called alternation of generations. Most fungi and algae are haploid during the principal stage of their lifecycle.

Male bees, wasps, and ants are haploid organisms because of the way they develop from unfertilized, haploid egg cells.

In humans, the monoploid number (x) equals the haploid number (n), x = n = 23, but, in some species (especially plants), these numbers differ. Common wheat has six sets of chromosomes in the somatic cells, derived from its three different ancestral species. The gametes of common wheat are considered to be haploid, since they contain half the genetic information of somatic cells, but are not monoploid, as they still contain three complete sets of chromosomes (n = 3x).

Diploid

Diploid (indicated by 2n = 2x) cells have two homologous copies of each chromosome, usually one from the mother and one from the father. Nearly all mammals are diploid organisms (the tetraploid viscacha rats Pipanacoctomys aureus and Tympanoctomys barrerae are the only known exceptions as of 2004), although all individuals have some small fraction of cells that display polyploidy. Human diploid cells have 46 chromosomes and human haploid gametes (egg and sperm) have 23 chromosomes.

Retroviruses that contain two copies of their RNA genome in each viral particle are also said to be diploid. Examples include human foamy virus, human T-lymphotropic virus, and HIV.

Homoploid

"Homoploid" means "at the same ploidy level", i.e. having the same number of homologous chromosomes. For example, homoploid hybridization is hybridization where the offspring have the same ploidy level as the two parental species. This contrasts with a common situation in plants where chromosome doubling accompanies, or happens soon after hybridization. Similarly, homoploid speciation contrasts with polyploid speciation.

Haploidisation

Haploidisation (haploidization) is the process of creating a haploid cell (usually from a diploid cell).

A laboratory procedure called haploidisation forces a normal cell to expel half of its chromosomal complement. In mammals this renders this cell chromosomally equal to sperm or egg. This was one of the procedures used by Japanese researchers to produce Kaguya, a fatherless mouse.

Haploidisation sometimes occurs in plants when meiotically reduced cells (usually egg cells) develop by parthenogenesis.

A rare genetic disorder that has occurred in a total of 7 recorded cases is Detrimental Haploidy Syndrome where the somatic cells of the human body are haploid after the first division of cells from fertilisation. As a result of this a human with this syndrome is unfortunately prone to other diseases and unable to reproduce.

Zygoidy and azygoidy

Zygoidy is the state where the chromosomes are paired and can undergo meiosis. The zygoid state of a species may be diploid or polyploid. In the azygoid state the chromosomes are unpaired. It may be the natural state of some asexual species or may occur after meiosis. In diploid organisms the azygoid state is monoploid. (see below for dihaploidy)

Polyploidy

Main article: Polyploidy
Polyploidy is the state where all cells have multiple sets of chromosomes beyond the basic set, for example, in triploids 2n = 3x, in tetraploids 2n = 4x. The chromosome sets may be from the same species or from closely related species. In the latter case, these are known as allopolyploids (or amphidiploids, which are allopolyploids that behave as if they were normal diploids). Allopolyploids are formed from the hybridization of two separate species. In plants, this probably most often occurs from the pairing of meiotically unreduced gametes, and not by diploid–diploid hybridization followed by chromosome doubling. The so-called Brassica triangle is an example of allopolyploidy, where three different parent species have hybridized in all possible pair combinations to produce three new species.

Polyploidy occurs commonly in plants, but rarely in animals. Even in diploid organisms, many somatic cells are polyploid due to a process called endoreduplication where duplication of the genome occurs without mitosis (cell division).

The extreme in polyploidy occurs in the fern genus Ophioglossum, the adder's-tongues, in which polyploidy results in chromosome counts in the hundreds, or, in at least one case, well over one thousand.

Variable or indefinite ploidy

Depending on growth conditions, prokaryotes such as bacteria may have a chromosome copy number of 1 to 4, and that number is commonly fractional, counting portions of the chromosome partly replicated at a given time. This is because under exponential growth conditions the cells are able to replicate their DNA faster than they can divide.

Mixoploidy

Mixoploidy refers to the presence of two cell lines, one diploid and one polyploid. Though polyploidy in humans is not viable, mixoploidy has been found in live adults and children. There are two types: diploid-triploid mixoploidy, in which some cells have 46 chromosomes and some have 69, and diploid-tetraploid mixoploidy, in which some cells have 46 and some have 92 chromosomes.

Dihaploidy and polyhaploidy

Not to be confused with haplodiploidy (where diploid and haploid individuals are different sexes)
Dihaploid and polyhaploid cells are formed by haploidisation of polyploids, i.e., by halving the chromosome constitution.

Dihaploids (which are diploid) are important for selective breeding of tetraploid crop plants (notably potatoes), because selection is faster with diploids than with tetraploids. Tetraploids can be reconstituted from the diploids, for example by somatic fusion.

The term “dihaploid” was coined by Bender to combine in one word the number of genome copies (diploid) and their origin (haploid). The term is well established in this original sense, but it has also been used for doubled monoploids or doubled haploids, which are homozygous and used for genetic research.

Possible adaptive/ecological significance of variation in ploidy

A study comparing the karyotypes of endangered or invasive plants with those of their relatives found that being polyploid as opposed to diploid is associated with a 14% lower risk of being endangered, and a 20% greater chance of being invasive. Polyploidy may be associated with increased vigor and adaptability.

^ Crosland, M. W. J.; Crozier, R. H. (1986). "Myrmecia pilosula, an Ant with Only One Pair of Chromosomes". Science 231 (4743): 1278. Bibcode 1986Sci...231.1278C. DOI:10.1126/science.231.4743.1278. PMID 17839565. edit
^ Strasburger, E.; Noll, F.; Schenck, H.; Karsten, G. 1908. A Textbook of botany, a translation by W. H. Lang of Lehrbuch der Botanik für Hochschulen. Macmillan, London.
^ Gallardo, M. H. et al. (2004). Whole-genome duplications in South American desert rodents (Octodontidae). Biological Journal of the Linnean Society, 82, 443-451.
^ http://web.uct.ac.za/depts/mmi/jmoodie/hiv2.html
^ Books, Elsevier Science & Technology (1950-01-01). Advances in Genetics. Academic Press. ISBN 978-0-12-017603-8.
^ Cosín, Darío J. Díaz, Marta Novo, and Rosa Fernández. “Reproduction of Earthworms: Sexual Selection and Parthenogenesis.” In Biology of Earthworms, edited by Ayten Karaca, 24:69-86. Berlin, Heidelberg: Springer Berlin Heidelberg, 2011. http://www.springerlink.com/content/j5j72p2834355w27/.
^ Ramsey, J.; Schemske, D. W. (2002). "Neopolyploidy in Flowering Plants". Annual Review of Ecology and Systematics 33: 589. DOI:10.1146/annurev.ecolsys.33.010802.150437. http://www.plantbiology.msu.edu/files/R ... 289%29.pdf. edit
^ Bender, K. 1963. “Über die Erzeugung und Entstehung dihaploider Pflanzen bei Solanum tuberosum”. Zeitschrift für Pflanzenzüchtung 50: 141–166.
^ Nogler, G.A. 1984. Gametophytic apomixis. In Embryology of angiosperms. Edited by B.M. Johri. Springer, Berlin, Germany. pp. 475–518.
^ * Pehu, E. 1996. The current status of knowledge on the cellular biology of potato. Potato Research 39: 429–435.
^ * Sprague, G.F., Russell, W.A., and Penny, L.H. 1960. Mutations affecting quantitative traits in the selfed progeny of double monoploid maize stocks. Genetics 45(7): 855–866.
^ Pandit, M. K.; Pocock, M. J. O.; Kunin, W. E. (2011-03-28). "Ploidy influences rarity and invasiveness in plants". Journal of Ecology (Wiley-Blackwell) 99. DOI:10.1111/j.1365-2745.2011.01838.x.
^ Gilbert, Natasha (2011-04-06). "Ecologists find genomic clues to invasive and endangered plants". Nature News (Nature Publishing Group). DOI:10.1038/news.2011.213. http://www.nature.com/news/2011/110406/ ... 13.html#B1. Retrieved 2011-04-07.
Bibliography

Griffiths, A. J. et al. 2000. An introduction to genetic analysis, 7th ed. W. H. Freeman, New York ISBN 0-7167-3520-2


Ploidy is the number of sets of chromosomes in a biological cell.

Human sex cells (sperm and egg) have one complete set of chromosomes from the male or female parent. Sex cells, also called gametes, combine to produce somatic cells. Somatic cells, therefore, have twice as many chromosomes. The haploid number (n) is the number of chromosomes in a gamete. A somatic cell has twice that many chromosomes (2n).

Humans are diploid. A human somatic cell contains 46 chromosomes: 2 complete haploid sets, which make up 23 homologous chromosome pairs. However, many organisms have more than two sets of homologous chromosomes and are called polyploid.
The number of chromosomes in a single (non-homologous) set is called the monoploid number (x), and is distinct from the haploid number (n). Both numbers n, and x, apply to every cell of a given organism. For humans, x = n = 23, which is also written as 2n = 2x = 46. Bread wheat is an organism where x and n differ. It has six sets of chromosomes, two sets from each of three different diploid species that are its distant ancestors. The somatic cells are hexaploid, with six sets of chromosomes, 2n = 6x = 42. The gametes are both haploid and triploid, with three sets of chromosomes. The monoploid number x = 7, and the haploid number n = 21.

Tetraploidy (four sets of chromosomes, 2n = 4x) is common in plants, and also occurs in amphibians, reptiles, and insects.
The Australian bulldog ant, Myrmecia pilosula, a haplodiploid species, has n = x = 1, the lowest chromosome number theoretically possible.[1] Haploid individuals of this species have a single chromosome, and diploid individuals have two chromosomes.

Euploidy is the state of a cell or organism having an integral multiple of the monoploid number, possibly excluding the sex-determining chromosomes. For example, a human cell has 46 chromosomes, which is an integer multiple of the monoploid number, 23. A human with abnormal, but integral, multiples of this full set (e.g. 69 chromosomes) would also be considered as euploid. Aneuploidy is the state of not having euploidy. In humans, examples include having a single extra chromosome (such as Down syndrome), or missing a chromosome (such as Turner syndrome). Aneuploid karyotypes are given names with the suffix -somy (rather than -ploidy, used for euploid karyotypes), such as trisomy and monosomy.

Etymology

The term ploidy is a back-formation from haploid and diploid. These two terms are from Greek ἁπλόος haplóos "single" and διπλόος diplóos "double" combined with εἶδος eîdos "form" (compare idol from Latin īdōlum, that from Greek εἴδωλον eídōlon derived from εἶδος eîdos). The two haploid and diploid terms were borrowed from German through William Henry Lang's 1908 translation of a 1894 textbook by Eduard Strasburger and colleagues.[2] Strasburger used diploid to refer to an organism with twice the number of chromosomes of a haploid organism, hence "double" and "single".
[edit]Haploid and monoploid

The haploid number (n) is the number of chromosomes in a gamete of an individual. This is distinct from the monoploid number (x), which is the number of unique chromosomes in a single complete set. Gametes (sperm, and ova) are haploid cells. The haploid gametes produced by (most) diploid organisms are monoploid, and these can combine to form a diploid zygote. For example, most animals are diploid and produce monoploid gametes.
During meiosis, sex cell precursors have their number of chromosomes halved by randomly "choosing" one homologue, resulting in haploid gametes. Because homologous chromosomes usually differ genetically, gametes usually differ genetically from one another.
All plants and many fungi and algae switch between a haploid and a diploid state (which may be polyploid), with one of the stages emphasized over the other. This is called alternation of generations. Most fungi and algae are haploid during the principal stage of their lifecycle.
Male bees, wasps, and ants are haploid organisms because of the way they develop from unfertilized, haploid egg cells.
In humans, the monoploid number (x) equals the haploid number (n), x = n = 23, but, in some species (especially plants), these numbers differ. Common wheat has six sets of chromosomes in the somatic cells, derived from its three different ancestral species. The gametes of common wheat are considered to be haploid, since they contain half the genetic information of somatic cells, but are not monoploid, as they still contain three complete sets of chromosomes (n = 3x).
[edit]Diploid

Diploid (indicated by 2n = 2x) cells have two homologous copies of each chromosome, usually one from the mother and one from the father. Nearly all mammals are diploid organisms (the tetraploid viscacha rats Pipanacoctomys aureus and Tympanoctomys barrerae are the only known exceptions as of 2004[3]), although all individuals have some small fraction of cells that display polyploidy. Human diploid cells have 46 chromosomes and human haploid gametes (egg and sperm) have 23 chromosomes.
Retroviruses that contain two copies of their RNA genome in each viral particle are also said to be diploid. Examples include human foamy virus, human T-lymphotropic virus, and HIV.[4]
[edit]Homoploid

"Homoploid" means "at the same ploidy level", i.e. having the same number of homologous chromosomes. For example, homoploid hybridization is hybridization where the offspring have the same ploidy level as the two parental species. This contrasts with a common situation in plants where chromosome doubling accompanies, or happens soon after hybridization. Similarly, homoploid speciation contrasts with polyploid speciation.
[edit]Haploidisation

Haploidisation (haploidization) is the process of creating a haploid cell (usually from a diploid cell).
A laboratory procedure called haploidisation forces a normal cell to expel half of its chromosomal complement. In mammals this renders this cell chromosomally equal to sperm or egg. This was one of the procedures used by Japanese researchers to produce Kaguya, a fatherless mouse.
Haploidisation sometimes occurs in plants when meiotically reduced cells (usually egg cells) develop by parthenogenesis.
A rare genetic disorder that has occurred in a total of 7 recorded cases is Detrimental Haploidy Syndrome where the somatic cells of the human body are haploid after the first division of cells from fertilisation.[citation needed] As a result of this a human with this syndrome is unfortunately prone to other diseases and unable to reproduce.
[edit]Zygoidy and azygoidy

Zygoidy is the state where the chromosomes are paired and can undergo meiosis. The zygoid state of a species may be diploid or polyploid.[5][6] In the azygoid state the chromosomes are unpaired. It may be the natural state of some asexual species or may occur after meiosis. In diploid organisms the azygoid state is monoploid. (see below for dihaploidy)
[edit]Polyploidy

Main article: Polyploidy
Polyploidy is the state where all cells have multiple sets of chromosomes beyond the basic set, for example, in triploids 2n = 3x, in tetraploids 2n = 4x. The chromosome sets may be from the same species or from closely related species. In the latter case, these are known as allopolyploids (or amphidiploids, which are allopolyploids that behave as if they were normal diploids). Allopolyploids are formed from the hybridization of two separate species. In plants, this probably most often occurs from the pairing of meiotically unreduced gametes, and not by diploid–diploid hybridization followed by chromosome doubling.[7] The so-called Brassica triangle is an example of allopolyploidy, where three different parent species have hybridized in all possible pair combinations to produce three new species.
Polyploidy occurs commonly in plants, but rarely in animals. Even in diploid organisms, many somatic cells are polyploid due to a process called endoreduplication where duplication of the genome occurs without mitosis (cell division).
The extreme in polyploidy occurs in the fern genus Ophioglossum, the adder's-tongues, in which polyploidy results in chromosome counts in the hundreds, or, in at least one case, well over one thousand.
[edit]Variable or indefinite ploidy

Depending on growth conditions, prokaryotes such as bacteria may have a chromosome copy number of 1 to 4, and that number is commonly fractional, counting portions of the chromosome partly replicated at a given time. This is because under exponential growth conditions the cells are able to replicate their DNA faster than they can divide.
[edit]Mixoploidy

Mixoploidy refers to the presence of two cell lines, one diploid and one polyploid. Though polyploidy in humans is not viable, mixoploidy has been found in live adults and children. There are two types: diploid-triploid mixoploidy, in which some cells have 46 chromosomes and some have 69, and diploid-tetraploid mixoploidy, in which some cells have 46 and some have 92 chromosomes.
[edit]Dihaploidy and polyhaploidy

Not to be confused with haplodiploidy (where diploid and haploid individuals are different sexes)
Dihaploid and polyhaploid cells are formed by haploidisation of polyploids, i.e., by halving the chromosome constitution.
Dihaploids (which are diploid) are important for selective breeding of tetraploid crop plants (notably potatoes), because selection is faster with diploids than with tetraploids. Tetraploids can be reconstituted from the diploids, for example by somatic fusion.
The term “dihaploid” was coined by Bender[8] to combine in one word the number of genome copies (diploid) and their origin (haploid). The term is well established in this original sense,[9][10] but it has also been used for doubled monoploids or doubled haploids, which are homozygous and used for genetic research.[11]
[edit]Possible adaptive/ecological significance of variation in ploidy

A study comparing the karyotypes of endangered or invasive plants with those of their relatives found that being polyploid as opposed to diploid is associated with a 14% lower risk of being endangered, and a 20% greater chance of being invasive.[12] Polyploidy may be associated with increased vigor and adaptability.[13]
[edit]References

^ Crosland, M. W. J.; Crozier, R. H. (1986). "Myrmecia pilosula, an Ant with Only One Pair of Chromosomes". Science 231 (4743): 1278. Bibcode 1986Sci...231.1278C. DOI:10.1126/science.231.4743.1278. PMID 17839565. edit
^ Strasburger, E.; Noll, F.; Schenck, H.; Karsten, G. 1908. A Textbook of botany, a translation by W. H. Lang of Lehrbuch der Botanik für Hochschulen. Macmillan, London.
^ Gallardo, M. H. et al. (2004). Whole-genome duplications in South American desert rodents (Octodontidae). Biological Journal of the Linnean Society, 82, 443-451.
^ http://web.uct.ac.za/depts/mmi/jmoodie/hiv2.html
^ Books, Elsevier Science & Technology (1950-01-01). Advances in Genetics. Academic Press. ISBN 978-0-12-017603-8.
^ Cosín, Darío J. Díaz, Marta Novo, and Rosa Fernández. “Reproduction of Earthworms: Sexual Selection and Parthenogenesis.” In Biology of Earthworms, edited by Ayten Karaca, 24:69-86. Berlin, Heidelberg: Springer Berlin Heidelberg, 2011. http://www.springerlink.com/content/j5j72p2834355w27/.
^ Ramsey, J.; Schemske, D. W. (2002). "Neopolyploidy in Flowering Plants". Annual Review of Ecology and Systematics 33: 589. DOI:10.1146/annurev.ecolsys.33.010802.150437. edit
^ Bender, K. 1963. “Über die Erzeugung und Entstehung dihaploider Pflanzen bei Solanum tuberosum”. Zeitschrift für Pflanzenzüchtung 50: 141–166.
^ Nogler, G.A. 1984. Gametophytic apomixis. In Embryology of angiosperms. Edited by B.M. Johri. Springer, Berlin, Germany. pp. 475–518.
^ * Pehu, E. 1996. The current status of knowledge on the cellular biology of potato. Potato Research 39: 429–435.
^ * Sprague, G.F., Russell, W.A., and Penny, L.H. 1960. Mutations affecting quantitative traits in the selfed progeny of double monoploid maize stocks. Genetics 45(7): 855–866.
^ Pandit, M. K.; Pocock, M. J. O.; Kunin, W. E. (2011-03-28). "Ploidy influences rarity and invasiveness in plants". Journal of Ecology (Wiley-Blackwell) 99. DOI:10.1111/j.1365-2745.2011.01838.x.
^ Gilbert, Natasha (2011-04-06). "Ecologists find genomic clues to invasive and endangered plants". Nature News (Nature Publishing Group). DOI:10.1038/news.2011.213. Retrieved 2011-04-07.
[edit]Bibliography

Griffiths, A. J. et al. 2000. An introduction to genetic analysis, 7th ed. W. H. Freeman, New York ISBN 0-7167-3520-2


I guess I'm crazy then. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ploidy

I appear to have been mistaken. I skimmed over the second one and did not notice that they were identical.
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Torcularis Septentrionalis
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Postby Torcularis Septentrionalis » Fri Jun 08, 2012 8:52 pm

Christian Democrats wrote:A defective human somatic cell can be haploid, but an entire human being cannot be haploid.

Hypothetically, a haploid cell resulting from an error in the first division of a zygote would lead to a spontaneous abortion almost immediately thereafter because a human being cannot be haploid.

Therefore, it is fallacious to equate human gametes with unborn humans because gametes are haploid, whereas unborn humans, like born humans, have full sets of genetic information (give or take a little because of the potential for genetic defects). Human beings, born and unborn, are diploid creatures.

I'd actually love to see your proof for this claim.
Considering that I've been searching for a long time and have yet to find anything about it being impossible, yet faintly remember hearing about this previously. I think my biology professor mentioned it casually.
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Postby Tlaceceyaya » Fri Jun 08, 2012 9:00 pm

Torcularis Septentrionalis wrote:
Christian Democrats wrote:A defective human somatic cell can be haploid, but an entire human being cannot be haploid.

Hypothetically, a haploid cell resulting from an error in the first division of a zygote would lead to a spontaneous abortion almost immediately thereafter because a human being cannot be haploid.

Therefore, it is fallacious to equate human gametes with unborn humans because gametes are haploid, whereas unborn humans, like born humans, have full sets of genetic information (give or take a little because of the potential for genetic defects). Human beings, born and unborn, are diploid creatures.

I'd actually love to see your proof for this claim.
Considering that I've been searching for a long time and have yet to find anything about it being impossible, yet faintly remember hearing about this previously. I think my biology professor mentioned it casually.

After changing my position on this threadjack, I will respond to this.

Due to our diploid nature, genes which overrule others (dominant genes) will exert their phenotypic effects while the ones which they overrule (recessive genes) will not. If a recessive gene never exerts any phenotypic effects, it can mutate without any harmful phenotypic effects. Naturally, this will lead to them causing problems if they ever do manage to have an effect. Since most humans don't share the same genes, a recessive gene will rarely be homozygous, and there is no problem for the host. In the case of incest, the chance of a recessive gene being homozygous is increased (25% for a sibling, on average, 50% chance of them having it heterozygous and 50% chance of the lucky gamete having it).
If you simply remove the possibility of the gene being heterozygous by making it have no counterpart, it will exert its phenotypic effects and likely kill the host.
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Postby Cromarty » Sat Jun 09, 2012 1:12 am

Christian Democrats wrote: a human being cannot be haploid.

You've yet to prove that.
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Postby Xeng He » Sat Jun 09, 2012 8:55 am

I would really like a reply to this...

Xeng He wrote:You know what is unscientific and just plain awful about the pro-life/pro-choice debate?


Both sides seem to act as if the fetus is an unchanging thing that never, ever, develops a nervous system within the womb after conception, even if the fetus has been in the womb longer than say...a baby born prematurely, and is thus actually more developed.

It really aggravates me.
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Postby The Steel Magnolia » Sat Jun 09, 2012 9:00 am

Xeng He wrote:I would really like a reply to this...

Xeng He wrote:You know what is unscientific and just plain awful about the pro-life/pro-choice debate?


Both sides seem to act as if the fetus is an unchanging thing that never, ever, develops a nervous system within the womb after conception, even if the fetus has been in the womb longer than say...a baby born prematurely, and is thus actually more developed.

It really aggravates me.


Because it's absolutely irrelevant? It's a principle of bodily autonomy, and while sentience/sapience is a great tool for convincing people one way or another, it doesn't actually matter.

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Xeng He
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Postby Xeng He » Sat Jun 09, 2012 9:04 am

The Steel Magnolia wrote:
Because it's absolutely irrelevant? It's a principle of bodily autonomy, and while sentience/sapience is a great tool for convincing people one way or another, it doesn't actually matter.


Wait...so what you're saying is that you'd view the ousting of an object and the killing of an actual person to be the exact same issue?

The difference does matter when you're weighing one right against the other. Sure, bodily autonomy is important, but isn't life moreso?
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Tlaceceyaya
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Postby Tlaceceyaya » Sat Jun 09, 2012 9:06 am

Xeng He wrote:
The Steel Magnolia wrote:
Because it's absolutely irrelevant? It's a principle of bodily autonomy, and while sentience/sapience is a great tool for convincing people one way or another, it doesn't actually matter.


Wait...so what you're saying is that you'd view the ousting of an object and the killing of an actual person to be the exact same issue?

The difference does matter when you're weighing one right against the other. Sure, bodily autonomy is important, but isn't life moreso?

That life's existence is entirely depending on the host. The host cannot opt out of the non-consensual bond except by waiting until it's over or getting an abortion.
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Xeng He
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Postby Xeng He » Sat Jun 09, 2012 9:09 am

Tlaceceyaya wrote:That life's existence is entirely depending on the host. The host cannot opt out of the non-consensual bond except by waiting until it's over or getting an abortion.


But then, the fetus didn't force the bond on the host. It had no role in its conception, and since the fetus only develops sufficiently to be considered a person by week 23, the host has some time to decide.

So if anything, the fetus is the one being forced.
Blazedtown wrote:[an ism is] A term used by people who won't admit their true beliefs, or don't have any.
[spoiler=Quotes]
Galloism: ...social media is basically cancer. I’d like to reiterate that social media is bringing the downfall of society in a lot of ways.
I'm Not Telling You It's Going to Be Easy, I'm Telling You It's Going to be Worth It.
Oh my god this comic

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Wiztopia
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Postby Wiztopia » Sat Jun 09, 2012 9:10 am

We already established that phone interviews are inaccurate a long ass time ago with the other poll since phone surveys only target land lines and not cell phones.

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Norstal
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Postby Norstal » Sat Jun 09, 2012 9:12 am

Xeng He wrote:
The Steel Magnolia wrote:
Because it's absolutely irrelevant? It's a principle of bodily autonomy, and while sentience/sapience is a great tool for convincing people one way or another, it doesn't actually matter.


Wait...so what you're saying is that you'd view the ousting of an object and the killing of an actual person to be the exact same issue?

The difference does matter when you're weighing one right against the other. Sure, bodily autonomy is important, but isn't life moreso?

A seed is not a tree is not a plant.

A fetus is not a baby is not a kid is not an adult.

A cylinder is not a machine is not an engine is not a car.

Learn the bloody difference.
Last edited by Norstal on Sat Jun 09, 2012 9:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Furious Grandmothers
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Postby Furious Grandmothers » Sat Jun 09, 2012 9:23 am

Xeng He wrote:
Tlaceceyaya wrote:That life's existence is entirely depending on the host. The host cannot opt out of the non-consensual bond except by waiting until it's over or getting an abortion.


But then, the fetus didn't force the bond on the host. It had no role in its conception, and since the fetus only develops sufficiently to be considered a person by week 23, the host has some time to decide.

So if anything, the fetus is the one being forced.

Not a person because it's not living independently, and even if you insist on terming it a person, still irrelevant because of the underlined.
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The Steel Magnolia
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Founded: Dec 29, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby The Steel Magnolia » Sat Jun 09, 2012 9:26 am

Xeng He wrote:
The Steel Magnolia wrote:
Because it's absolutely irrelevant? It's a principle of bodily autonomy, and while sentience/sapience is a great tool for convincing people one way or another, it doesn't actually matter.


Wait...so what you're saying is that you'd view the ousting of an object and the killing of an actual person to be the exact same issue?

The difference does matter when you're weighing one right against the other. Sure, bodily autonomy is important, but isn't life moreso?



There's no "right to life", so no, not really.

Besides, even if it was a living, completely sentient and sapient person, bodily autonomy would still override everything else.

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Xeng He
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Founded: Nov 14, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Xeng He » Sat Jun 09, 2012 9:28 am

Norstal wrote:A seed is not a tree is not a plant.

A fetus is not a baby is not a kid is not an adult.

A cylinder is not a machine is not an engine is not a car.

Learn the bloody difference.



No, you learn the bloody difference.

What exactly is the difference between a fetus at week 30 and a baby born prematurely at week 30 anyway?

Now, admittedly, I would consider partial-birth abortions to be acceptable at this stage, because, well, they are viable, but since not all abortions are thus...and since it's actually somewhat risky...
Blazedtown wrote:[an ism is] A term used by people who won't admit their true beliefs, or don't have any.
[spoiler=Quotes]
Galloism: ...social media is basically cancer. I’d like to reiterate that social media is bringing the downfall of society in a lot of ways.
I'm Not Telling You It's Going to Be Easy, I'm Telling You It's Going to be Worth It.
Oh my god this comic

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Xeng He
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Founded: Nov 14, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Xeng He » Sat Jun 09, 2012 9:29 am

The Steel Magnolia wrote:

There's no "right to life", so no, not really.


There's about as little evidence for an objective right to bodily autonomy.

Besides, even if it was a living, completely sentient and sapient person, bodily autonomy would still override everything else.


...even when there's already a built-in option?
Blazedtown wrote:[an ism is] A term used by people who won't admit their true beliefs, or don't have any.
[spoiler=Quotes]
Galloism: ...social media is basically cancer. I’d like to reiterate that social media is bringing the downfall of society in a lot of ways.
I'm Not Telling You It's Going to Be Easy, I'm Telling You It's Going to be Worth It.
Oh my god this comic

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Wiztopia
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Postby Wiztopia » Sat Jun 09, 2012 9:35 am

Xeng He wrote:
Norstal wrote:A seed is not a tree is not a plant.

A fetus is not a baby is not a kid is not an adult.

A cylinder is not a machine is not an engine is not a car.

Learn the bloody difference.



No, you learn the bloody difference.

What exactly is the difference between a fetus at week 30 and a baby born prematurely at week 30 anyway?

Now, admittedly, I would consider partial-birth abortions to be acceptable at this stage, because, well, they are viable, but since not all abortions are thus...and since it's actually somewhat risky...


Doesn't mean shit. A baby is not a baby until it is born. A child is not a child until it is born.

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Xeng He
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Postby Xeng He » Sat Jun 09, 2012 9:41 am

Wiztopia wrote:
Doesn't mean shit. A baby is not a baby until it is born. A child is not a child until it is born.



A human being has 46 chromosomes and a unique genetic code.

Are you saying fetuses are human?
Blazedtown wrote:[an ism is] A term used by people who won't admit their true beliefs, or don't have any.
[spoiler=Quotes]
Galloism: ...social media is basically cancer. I’d like to reiterate that social media is bringing the downfall of society in a lot of ways.
I'm Not Telling You It's Going to Be Easy, I'm Telling You It's Going to be Worth It.
Oh my god this comic

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Xeng He
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Postby Xeng He » Sat Jun 09, 2012 9:50 am

Furious Grandmothers wrote:Not a person because it's not living independently,


No person actually lives independently. Even adult humans are highly dependent on bacteria living inside them to properly function, not to mention other life for food.


and even if you insist on terming it a person, still irrelevant because of the underlined.



I don't understand this, however. I already made my response to that, so...
Blazedtown wrote:[an ism is] A term used by people who won't admit their true beliefs, or don't have any.
[spoiler=Quotes]
Galloism: ...social media is basically cancer. I’d like to reiterate that social media is bringing the downfall of society in a lot of ways.
I'm Not Telling You It's Going to Be Easy, I'm Telling You It's Going to be Worth It.
Oh my god this comic

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Auralia
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Founded: Dec 15, 2011
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Postby Auralia » Sat Jun 09, 2012 10:44 am

Torcularis Septentrionalis wrote:I don't give a shit if you think it's human or not. If YOU were inside of me, I have every right to remove you. If a kitten was inside of me, I have every right to remove it. If the entire swedish government were inside me, well they can get right the fuck on out, too. Whatever it is, if it is inside my body, I have the right to remove it. Fetuses included.


Assuming a fetus is a person, you would only have the right to remove them from your body if you could do so without killing or injuring them. In just about every legal jurisdiction, deadly force is only permitted if serious injury or death is imminent. The reality is that your right to bodily sovereignty is not as important as your child's right to life, since the latter is the most fundamental of all rights.
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Auralia
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Postby Auralia » Sat Jun 09, 2012 10:48 am

The Steel Magnolia wrote:There's no "right to life", so no, not really.


A brief excerpt from Wikipedia:
In 1776, the United States Declaration of Independence declared that all men are endowed with certain inalienable rights, and that "among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness".
In 1948, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, adopted by the United Nations General Assembly declared in article three:
“ Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person. ”
In 1950, the European Convention on Human Rights was adopted by the Council of Europe, declaring a protected human right to life in Article 2. There are exceptions for lawful executions and self-defense, arresting a fleeing suspect, and suppressing riots and insurrections. Since then Protocol 6 of the Convention has called for nations to outlaw capital punishment except in time of war or national emergency, and at present this pertains in all countries of the Council. Protocol 13 provides for the total abolition of capital punishment, and has been implemented in most member countries of the Council.
In 1966, the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights was adopted by the United Nations General Assembly.
“ Every human being has the inherent right to life. This right shall be protected by law. No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his life. ”
—Article 6.1 of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights
In 1982, the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms enshrined that
“ Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of the person and the right not to be deprived thereof except in accordance with the principles of fundamental justice. ”
—Section 7 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms
In 1989, the United Nations General Assembly adopted the Convention on the Rights of the Child (CRC).
The Basic Law for the Federal Republic of Germany holds the principle of human dignity paramount, even above the right to life.
The Catholic Church has issued a Charter of the Rights of the Family[1] in which it states that the right to life is directly implied by human dignity.


The Steel Magnolia wrote:Besides, even if it was a living, completely sentient and sapient person, bodily autonomy would still override everything else.


Deadly force is only authorized when you are at risk of death or serious injury.
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Farnhamia
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Postby Farnhamia » Sat Jun 09, 2012 10:51 am

Auralia wrote:
Torcularis Septentrionalis wrote:I don't give a shit if you think it's human or not. If YOU were inside of me, I have every right to remove you. If a kitten was inside of me, I have every right to remove it. If the entire swedish government were inside me, well they can get right the fuck on out, too. Whatever it is, if it is inside my body, I have the right to remove it. Fetuses included.


Assuming a fetus is a person, you would only have the right to remove them from your body if you could do so without killing or injuring them. In just about every legal jurisdiction, deadly force is only permitted if serious injury or death is imminent. The reality is that your right to bodily sovereignty is not as important as your child's right to life, since the latter is the most fundamental of all rights.

That's the thing, see, you start by declaring (assuming) the fetus a person, then build your case on that. Unless it can survive outside the womb, it is not a person. Ultimately, it is none of your business what I do regarding my reproductive choices and it is insufferable arrogance for you to think it is.
Last edited by Farnhamia on Sat Jun 09, 2012 10:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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