Americans Becoming More Pro-Life

[Der Teutoniker]

a pro-lifer and a supporter of the death penalty? that is something you don't see everyday

Actually it's very common, and easily defensible.

Killing violent, aggressive criminals is not the same as killing innocent babies.

[Socialist Ecuador]

Thou shalt not kill.

Pretty much sums it up.



EDIT: Alright, I see your argument. When the government kills a person they were either an immediate threat or had a fair trial. The aborted was/had neither.

Yahweh had a huge thing for mass murder though, so I don't see how that makes sense.

[Alyekra]

Abortion is immoral because that person never had a chance at life, how ever, the death penalty is justifiable because the criminals had their chance and blew it.

a pro-lifer and a supporter of the death penalty? that is something you don't see everyday

I'm pro-life and I support the death penalty because a criminal who was executed has been found guilty by a trial by his peers and I-don't-know-how-many chances to appeals.

Maybe if they started giving the unborn a trial before killing them...

[Khadgar]

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/says_ ... rtion.html

Abortion is not murder. A fetus is not considered a human life.

If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life. -- Exodus 21:22-23

The Bible places no value on fetuses or infants less than one month old.

And if it be from a month old even unto five years old, then thy estimation shall be of the male five shekels of silver, and for the female thy estimation shall be three shekels of silver. -- Leviticus 27:6

Fetuses and infants less than one month old are not considered persons.

Number the children of Levi after the house of their fathers, by their families: every male from a month old and upward shalt thou number them. And Moses numbered them according to the word of the LORD. -- Numbers 3:15-16

God sometimes approves of killing fetuses.

And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive? ... Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. -- Numbers 31:15-17
(Some of the non-virgin women must have been pregnant. They would have been killed along with their unborn fetuses.)

Give them, O LORD: what wilt thou give? give them a miscarrying womb and dry breasts. -- Hosea 9:14

Yea, though they bring forth, yet will I slay even the beloved fruit of their womb. -- Hosea 9:16

Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up. -- Hosea 13:16

God sometimes kills newborn babies to punish their parents.

Because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die. -- 2 Samuel 12:14

God sometimes causes abortions by cursing unfaithful wives.

The priest shall say unto the woman, The LORD make thee a curse and an oath among thy people, when the LORD doth make thy thigh to rot, and thy belly to swell. And this water that causeth the curse shall go into thy bowels, to make thy belly to swell, and thy thigh to rot: And the woman shall say, Amen, amen. ...
And when he hath made her to drink the water, then it shall come to pass, that, if she be defiled, and have done trespass against her husband, that the water that causeth the curse shall enter into her, and become bitter, and her belly shall swell, and her thigh shall rot: and the woman shall be a curse among her people. And if the woman be not defiled, but be clean; then she shall be free, and shall conceive seed. -- Numbers 5:21-21, 27-28

God's law sometimes requires the execution (by burning to death) of pregnant women.

Tamar thy daughter in law hath played the harlot; and also, behold, she is with child by whoredom. And Judah said, Bring her forth, and let her be burnt. -- Genesis 38:24

[Der Teutoniker]

Murder is fine too. Yahweh did it himself numerous times, once even on a global scale. It is an undeniable fact unborn babies were included too, so therefore if Yaweh can kill unborn babies and Yaweh is never ever wrong, it can't be wrong by that logic.

According to most Christian theology, God is not bound by the morality that binds humans. Disagree if you want, but it voids your argument.

[Farnhamia]

Murder is fine too. Yahweh did it himself numerous times, once even on a global scale. It is an undeniable fact unborn babies were included too, so therefore if Yaweh can kill unborn babies and Yaweh is never ever wrong, it can't be wrong by that logic.

According to most Christian theology, God is not bound by the morality that binds humans. Disagree if you want, but it voids your argument.

He should be bound by it. Good example and all that. Yahweh was always all about him, though, from the start. That's why none of us liked him.

[Khadgar]

a pro-lifer and a supporter of the death penalty? that is something you don't see everyday

I'm pro-life and I support the death penalty because a criminal who was executed has been found guilty by a trial by his peers and I-don't-know-how-many chances to appeals.

Maybe if they started giving the unborn a trial before killing them...

Now, go ahead and look up the statistics on how many people on death row have been freed because they were actually innocent.

[New Rogernomics]

According to most Christian theology, God is not bound by the morality that binds humans. Disagree if you want, but it voids your argument.

He should be bound by it. Good example and all that. Yahweh was always all about him, though, from the start. That's why none of us liked him.

I liked Zeus, he went to bed with everyone.

[Alyekra]

I'm pro-life and I support the death penalty because a criminal who was executed has been found guilty by a trial by his peers and I-don't-know-how-many chances to appeals.

Maybe if they started giving the unborn a trial before killing them...

Now, go ahead and look up the statistics on how many people on death row have been freed because they were actually innocent.

Yep. They were found innocent and freed. I don't see how that effects my statement.

[Der Teutoniker]

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/says_about/abortion.html

Some problems with that.

In the case of the "month old or more" perhaps that is simply accounting for an extremely high infant mortality rate? To the point where it is not even fair to consider them "people" until they have better expectations of living for a whole life. In this case, that would really then mean that abortions might be ok up until reasonable viability hits.

For the rest, God doing it himself on rare occasion, or commanding it on rare occasion is 1: exceptional, and 2: morally ok because God ordained the action in that situation. Implying that in other situations it would still be wrong.

[Khadgar]

Now, go ahead and look up the statistics on how many people on death row have been freed because they were actually innocent.

Yep. They were found innocent and freed. I don't see how that effects my statement.

Well the fact that on average it takes 10 years, and not all death row inmates last 10 years before the state kills them. They refuse to investigate the dead ones. Makes it real handy, that way they can confidently assert that everyone they killed was in fact guilty simply because they refuse to look at evidence to the contrary.

[Der Teutoniker]

He should be bound by it. Good example and all that. Yahweh was always all about him, though, from the start. That's why none of us liked him.

And you can think that. I'm not defending the theology so much as explaining it.

[Khadgar]

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/says_about/abortion.html

Some problems with that.

In the case of the "month old or more" perhaps that is simply accounting for an extremely high infant mortality rate? To the point where it is not even fair to consider them "people" until they have better expectations of living for a whole life. In this case, that would really then mean that abortions might be ok up until reasonable viability hits.

For the rest, God doing it himself on rare occasion, or commanding it on rare occasion is 1: exceptional, and 2: morally ok because God ordained the action in that situation. Implying that in other situations it would still be wrong.

Then God's a dick for letting babies die and gets no vote. Then again you could argue that a miscarriage is by default God aborting babies himself the murdering sociopath.

[Der Teutoniker]

Well the fact that on average it takes 10 years, and not all death row inmates last 10 years before the state kills them. They refuse to investigate the dead ones. Makes it real handy, that way they can confidently assert that everyone they killed was in fact guilty simply because they refuse to look at evidence to the contrary.

But one can still find the wrongful execution of people wrong without necessarily withdrawing their support for the death penalty in general.

[Khadgar]

Well the fact that on average it takes 10 years, and not all death row inmates last 10 years before the state kills them. They refuse to investigate the dead ones. Makes it real handy, that way they can confidently assert that everyone they killed was in fact guilty simply because they refuse to look at evidence to the contrary.

But one can still find the wrongful execution of people wrong without necessarily withdrawing their support for the death penalty in general.

There's no reason to support it, short of revenge, which I think you'll agree isn't a good motive. It is however a very Biblical motive.

[Der Teutoniker]

Then God's a dick for letting babies die and gets no vote. Then again you could argue that a miscarriage is by default God aborting babies himself the murdering sociopath.

Yeah, a lot of people feel that way.

[The Cotton Hand]

a pro-lifer and a supporter of the death penalty? that is something you don't see everyday

I'm pro-life and I support the death penalty because a criminal who was executed has been found guilty by a trial by his peers and I-don't-know-how-many chances to appeals.

Maybe if they started giving the unborn a trial before killing them...

Maybe if it mattered when the unborn live or die, it will get a trial. And a criminal being found guilty doesn't mean s/he deserves to die.

[Der Teutoniker]

There's no reason to support it, short of revenge, which I think you'll agree isn't a good motive. It is however a very Biblical motive.

I don't "not support" the death penalty. I have some problems with it that basically make it unworkable. It costs more than simple life imprisonment. That's BS to me, but I would be unwilling to simply forgo the numerous trials, and appeals, so there is really no fix for that. In such a case, in America, I'd rather we just pocket the money, and keep them locked up until they die.

I am not motivated in this belief by "revenge". You can think that because you don't understand the perspective, but that's not my motivation. Nor would I necessarily say that societal revenge against a criminal is wrong.

[Der Teutoniker]

Maybe if it mattered when the unborn live or die, it will get a trial. And a criminal being found guilty doesn't mean s/he deserves to die.

It does matter. Either they (likely) grow into a mature human being or they don't. It's the start of a major turning point.

He never said all convicted criminals deserve to die.

[Alyekra]

If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life. -- Exodus 21:22-23

I had to message someone to answer this.

The key revolves around whether the Hebrew word "Yalad" should be translated "give birth prematurely" or "she has a miscarriage." However, when making this decision we must keep in mind other passages which show a high regard for the humanity and sanctity of unborn life; passages such as Psalm 139:13-16. The word "yalad" is used elsewhere meaning to "go forth" or "give birth" in the normal sense (Genesis 25:26; 38:28-30; Job 3:11; 10:18; Jeremiah 1:5; 20:18). This word is always used in the sense of giving normal, natural birth, not of miscarriage. The word "shakal/shekol" is used of miscarriage in other passages (Genesis 31:38; Exodus 23:26; Job 21:10; Hosea 9:14). If the writer had meant miscarriage in this text of Ex. 21, "shakal" would've been the word to choose, not "yalad." "Yalad" is also always used to speak of a child that has a recognizable human form or is capable of surviving outside the womb, whereas the word "nepel" is typically used of an unborn child, or "golem" which means "fetus," used only once referring to the psalmist's "unformed substance." So the question we are left with in this text is "who is injured? the baby or the mother? It could refer to either/both since the feminine pronoun is missing here. Paul Copan gives the "gist" of this passage like so: "If two men fight and hit a pregnant woman and the baby is born prematurely, but there is no serious injury [to the child or the mother], then the offender must be fined whatever the husband demands and the court allows. But if there is serious injury [to the baby or the mother], you are to take life for life, eye for eye." - Adapted from Paul Copan's book "Is God a Moral Monster" pg. 99-100.

[Minnysota]

It doesn't matter if it does or not, we shouldn't be basing civil rights and legislation on the Bible.

[Rick Rollin]

viewtopic.php?f=20&t=181406

[Ashmoria]

Is abortion against the Bible? I don't think so. If killing is justifiable by the law, then how isn't abortion justifiable since the law allows for it?

Go!

i think it depends on how advanced the pregnancy is.

god kills embryos all the time. if he can, i can.

[The Republic of Lanos]

Source?

[Alyekra]

Source?

To whom are you referring?