Gillibrand - women in combat

[Tekania]

Don't see what's inherently disgusting about that.

I would make another hot-bunking joke here but I'm equally confused. Personally I'd be all for the Coast Guard getting leftover Los Angeles class subs from the Navy, would certainly give the drug runners from Columbia and Mexico a lot to think about.

Y'all need a nuclear propulsion training program first....then you'll know what we're talking about when we mutter "nukes"

[Poorisolation]

Don't see what's inherently disgusting about that.

I would make another hot-bunking joke here but I'm equally confused. Personally I'd be all for the Coast Guard getting leftover Los Angeles class subs from the Navy, would certainly give the drug runners from Columbia and Mexico a lot to think about.

I don't think RM bothered to read Tekania's sig and thus did not realise what service he was in. Nor I think did he realise that the submarine service aims to kill ships not people and to be so good at killing ships no one pushes things to the stage where they have to dump people in the water.

[Geniasis]

If there is no research into the area then it most certainly is not safe to assume that at all. Indeed, without any evidence to the contrary I would be much more likely to assume that female police officers, having received the same training and passed the same tests, and using the same equipment, would be just as capable of arresting a resisting suspect as their male colleagues.

In my country we have thing called 'Laws of Physics' which may help solve your doubts. Basically, the physical disposition between men and women (we call it 'genetics') provides the physical advantage needed in such roles (ie apprehending a suspect, or operating a tank). Reading a textbook or doing push-ups can help only so much in a real life situation.

I mean no offence comrade, and if it's any consolation I think women are much ahead of men in terms of intellectual ability and physical attractiveness.

Physics and genetics really are fascinating subjects.

You should try learning them at some point.

[Northern Dominus]

I would make another hot-bunking joke here but I'm equally confused. Personally I'd be all for the Coast Guard getting leftover Los Angeles class subs from the Navy, would certainly give the drug runners from Columbia and Mexico a lot to think about.

Y'all need a nuclear propulsion training program first....then you'll know what we're talking about when we mutter "nukes"

Oh I know a little too well. One of the friends I made in the service was a Glow Worm on an Ohio. Doubt very much that most technicians in the USCG are willing to risk the sudden ability to glow in the dark and produce four headed multi-tentacled children in order to stick it to the cartels

[Tekania]

Y'all need a nuclear propulsion training program first....then you'll know what we're talking about when we mutter "nukes"

Oh I know a little too well. One of the friends I made in the service was a Glow Worm on an Ohio. Doubt very much that most technicians in the USCG are willing to risk the sudden ability to glow in the dark and produce four headed multi-tentacled children in order to stick it to the cartels

Yes, I was one of the smart ones.... I qualified for the nuclear field, but chose not to.... lol..... And a nuke on a T-hull? Yeah, I remember they had a spot opening in Mk118 school when I was completing "A" school, as I has no interest in spending a good 4 years looking for sound shorts I opted against that too... lol, being a FT on a fast-attack is far more exciting than being an FT on a boomer.

[Northern Dominus]

Oh I know a little too well. One of the friends I made in the service was a Glow Worm on an Ohio. Doubt very much that most technicians in the USCG are willing to risk the sudden ability to glow in the dark and produce four headed multi-tentacled children in order to stick it to the cartels

Yes, I was one of the smart ones.... I qualified for the nuclear field, but chose not to.... lol.

Exactly....please tell me you at least got to helm one of those things.

[Tekania]

Yes, I was one of the smart ones.... I qualified for the nuclear field, but chose not to.... lol.

Exactly....please tell me you at least got to helm one of those things.

I qualified on helmsman/planesman, yes.... rarely stood it though, my at sea watch station was most of the time FTOW. As FT div has to man two at sea stations with a 6 hour three shift rotation, and we only had 7 people (and the chief was usually either part of the COW or Diving Officer rotation)... couldn't usualyl spare the people to stand general stations like helm... that was mostly done by SK's and YN's.

Rather than sit at guages and needles indicates speed, course and depth, my primary excitement on watch at sea was taking these "....." (which represent a particular bearing from a sensor of some sort; sonar, visual, radar; at a particular time, and attempting to get them to stack on top of one another. Usually it was of course data from passive sonar. And I would have to use mathematical guess work to manipulate an assumes course, speed and range to get them to stack. It gets more interesting when you're doing a clandestine submerged transit of some highly trafficed straights somewhere and have to track 20 or 30 different contacts like that... because in the submarine world everything is a potential target... all other vessels tend to fall as either being potential hostile or actual hostile. So you'll in cases like that you'll be attempting to maintain 20 or 30 different firing solutions at all times.

[Lakeland]

So long as women can match the same standards as men then it's fine by me. After all we're all "equal" right?

(Image)

And the point of comparing companion and working dogs to human beings is what exactly?

Ah right, I'm sure you were not aware of sexual dimorphism and the two tiered standards related to men and women in the military. Right right right...

[Northern Dominus]

And the point of comparing companion and working dogs to human beings is what exactly?

Ah right, I'm sure you were not aware of sexual dimorphism and the two tiered standards related to men and women in the military. Right right right...

Except the comparison your rather un-clever and banal clip art has drawn is analogous to comparing a rhesus monkey to a human being, not a comparison of two members of the same species (yes I know, semantics semantics Canis Lupis Familiaris either way.
And nobody here has suggested that the standards for combat roles be lowered to accomodate women. Rather it has been suggested that the standards remain the same and we make the selection process gender blind, as it is color, creed and now sexual orientation blind as well.
As I have stated I have personally observed women that not only beat the female physical fitness standards but pretty well trounced the male standards as well, as well as, once again, noted that training isn't just a test of physical limits. The primary function of training and qualifications is to test how candidates react under stress, how they adapt to and overcome adversity when under severe pressure.

Again, that is something that does not know gender.

[Tahar Joblis]

Ah right, I'm sure you were not aware of sexual dimorphism and the two tiered standards related to men and women in the military. Right right right...

Except the comparison your rather un-clever and banal clip art has drawn is analogous to comparing a rhesus monkey to a human being, not a comparison of two members of the same species (yes I know, semantics semantics Canis Lupis Familiaris either way.
And nobody here has suggested that the standards for combat roles be lowered to accomodate women. Rather it has been suggested that the standards remain the same and we make the selection process gender blind, as it is color, creed and now sexual orientation blind as well.
As I have stated I have personally observed women that not only beat the female physical fitness standards but pretty well trounced the male standards as well, as well as, once again, noted that training isn't just a test of physical limits. The primary function of training and qualifications is to test how candidates react under stress, how they adapt to and overcome adversity when under severe pressure.

Again, that is something that does not know gender.

If I may point out something specific... as an experienced runner...

The maximum 2-mile score for men on the AFPT is for a 13:00 flat mile.

In 2010, at my old high school, at least six female runners [out of 8 with published times between two meets whose results are plastered over the web ran a faster pace for a 5K run. That is to say, they ran over three miles at a pace that would reach the top category doing a two-mile run for the AFPT. The two others posted were on a pace a bit under 13:10 per 2 miles, which is to say they probably could clock a two mile run in under 13:00.

It's not exactly unheard of for women to be able to run under 13:00 for two miles. It's not terribly common, but hardly unheard-of. And it's also pretty irrelevant for, say, combat pilots in the Air Force.

[Galloism]

Except the comparison your rather un-clever and banal clip art has drawn is analogous to comparing a rhesus monkey to a human being, not a comparison of two members of the same species (yes I know, semantics semantics Canis Lupis Familiaris either way.
And nobody here has suggested that the standards for combat roles be lowered to accomodate women. Rather it has been suggested that the standards remain the same and we make the selection process gender blind, as it is color, creed and now sexual orientation blind as well.
As I have stated I have personally observed women that not only beat the female physical fitness standards but pretty well trounced the male standards as well, as well as, once again, noted that training isn't just a test of physical limits. The primary function of training and qualifications is to test how candidates react under stress, how they adapt to and overcome adversity when under severe pressure.

Again, that is something that does not know gender.

If I may point out something specific... as an experienced runner...

The maximum 2-mile score for men on the AFPT is for a 13:00 flat mile.

In 2010, at my old high school, at least six female runners [out of 8 with published times between two meets whose results are plastered over the web ran a faster pace for a 5K run. That is to say, they ran over three miles at a pace that would reach the top category doing a two-mile run for the AFPT. The two others posted were on a pace a bit under 13:10 per 2 miles, which is to say they probably could clock a two mile run in under 13:00.

It's not exactly unheard of for women to be able to run under 13:00 for two miles. It's not terribly common, but hardly unheard-of. And it's also pretty irrelevant for, say, combat pilots in the Air Force.

Actually, the reason combat pilots must stay fit is due to G-Forces.

The greater the cardiovascular health, the better the heart's strength. The better the heart's strength, the more it can resist the blood drifting effect of G-Forces (there are also techniques to strain certain muscles to maintain blood flow in high-G situations).

So... no, the ability to run has a lot to do with being a combat pilot. It's not about the run, though. It's about the heart.

EDIT: There's also a matter of hypoxia resistance... also related.

[Alowwvia]

If I may point out something specific... as an experienced runner...

The maximum 2-mile score for men on the AFPT is for a 13:00 flat mile.

In 2010, at my old high school, at least six female runners [out of 8 with published times between two meets whose results are plastered over the web ran a faster pace for a 5K run. That is to say, they ran over three miles at a pace that would reach the top category doing a two-mile run for the AFPT. The two others posted were on a pace a bit under 13:10 per 2 miles, which is to say they probably could clock a two mile run in under 13:00.

It's not exactly unheard of for women to be able to run under 13:00 for two miles. It's not terribly common, but hardly unheard-of. And it's also pretty irrelevant for, say, combat pilots in the Air Force.

Actually, the reason combat pilots must stay fit is due to G-Forces.

The greater the cardiovascular health, the better the heart's strength. The better the heart's strength, the more it can resist the blood drifting effect of G-Forces (there are also techniques to strain certain muscles to maintain blood flow in high-G situations).

So... no, the ability to run has a lot to do with being a combat pilot. It's not about the run, though. It's about the heart.

EDIT: There's also a matter of hypoxia resistance... also related.

While we're on that topic:

Is it true that if you have your legs amputated, and have robot legs instead, you could handle G-forces better?

[Galloism]

Actually, the reason combat pilots must stay fit is due to G-Forces.

The greater the cardiovascular health, the better the heart's strength. The better the heart's strength, the more it can resist the blood drifting effect of G-Forces (there are also techniques to strain certain muscles to maintain blood flow in high-G situations).

So... no, the ability to run has a lot to do with being a combat pilot. It's not about the run, though. It's about the heart.

EDIT: There's also a matter of hypoxia resistance... also related.

While we're on that topic:

Is it true that if you have your legs amputated, and have robot legs instead, you could handle G-forces better?

Uhh... possibly.

*doesn't really know that answer at all*

[Geniasis]

While we're on that topic:

Is it true that if you have your legs amputated, and have robot legs instead, you could handle G-forces better?

Uhh... possibly.

*doesn't really know that answer at all*

Better play it safe and replace just about everything with robot parts.

[The UK in Exile]

Actually, the reason combat pilots must stay fit is due to G-Forces.

The greater the cardiovascular health, the better the heart's strength. The better the heart's strength, the more it can resist the blood drifting effect of G-Forces (there are also techniques to strain certain muscles to maintain blood flow in high-G situations).

So... no, the ability to run has a lot to do with being a combat pilot. It's not about the run, though. It's about the heart.

EDIT: There's also a matter of hypoxia resistance... also related.

While we're on that topic:

Is it true that if you have your legs amputated, and have robot legs instead, you could handle G-forces better?

pilots wear trousers that constrict around the legs when under G-forces, cutting off the blood supply. but I'm guessing literally cutting the legs off doesn't change the problem.

[The UK in Exile]

And the point of comparing companion and working dogs to human beings is what exactly?

Ah right, I'm sure you were not aware of sexual dimorphism and the two tiered standards related to men and women in the military. Right right right...

I wonder If you do...

[Tahar Joblis]

If you're doing rapid rotation, the longer you are, the worse it is.

Which is actually an argument for using female combat pilots, if you think about it.

[Northern Dominus]

Actually, the reason combat pilots must stay fit is due to G-Forces.

The greater the cardiovascular health, the better the heart's strength. The better the heart's strength, the more it can resist the blood drifting effect of G-Forces (there are also techniques to strain certain muscles to maintain blood flow in high-G situations).

So... no, the ability to run has a lot to do with being a combat pilot. It's not about the run, though. It's about the heart.

EDIT: There's also a matter of hypoxia resistance... also related.

While we're on that topic:

Is it true that if you have your legs amputated, and have robot legs instead, you could handle G-forces better?

Yeah that wasn't an awkward segue...
I don't know really. I remember it was done in the US Army Air Corps back in the 1940s but they didn't have to contend with the g-loads that todays fighter pilots do.

[Galloism]

If you're doing rapid rotation, the longer you are, the worse it is.

Which is actually an argument for using female combat pilots, if you think about it.

Indeed.

Anecdotal storytime:

When I did my high altitude training, I was second in longest duration at 24,000ft pressure altitude before becoming useless.

The man who was first smoked like a chimney and drank like a fish - often simultaneously.

The next week, I went along because it was funny as hell the week I was scheduled.

That week, a woman who was 4' 10" tall and weighed about 90lbs (if that) outlasted us both by a full minute.

[Northern Dominus]

If you're doing rapid rotation, the longer you are, the worse it is.

Which is actually an argument for using female combat pilots, if you think about it.

Indeed.

Anecdotal storytime:

When I did my high altitude training, I was second in longest duration at 24,000ft pressure altitude before becoming useless.

The man who was first smoked like a chimney and drank like a fish - often simultaneously.

The next week, I went along because it was funny as hell the week I was scheduled.

That week, a woman who was 4' 10" tall and weighed about 90lbs (if that) outlasted us both by a full minute.

High altitude training? You are/were a military aviator of some stripe?

[Galloism]

Indeed.

Anecdotal storytime:

When I did my high altitude training, I was second in longest duration at 24,000ft pressure altitude before becoming useless.

The man who was first smoked like a chimney and drank like a fish - often simultaneously.

The next week, I went along because it was funny as hell the week I was scheduled.

That week, a woman who was 4' 10" tall and weighed about 90lbs (if that) outlasted us both by a full minute.

High altitude training? You are/were a military aviator of some stripe?

No. Why?

[Northern Dominus]

High altitude training? You are/were a military aviator of some stripe?

No. Why?

Well you mentined high altitude training... Im guessing it was for something else then.

[Galloism]

No. Why?

Well you mentined high altitude training... Im guessing it was for something else then.

Part of Jet Training... learning your symptoms of hypoxia so that, should the pressurization alarms fail, you know what your individual symptoms are and can save yourself and your passengers.

The symptoms that you have for hypoxia you will always have for hypoxia.

[Northern Dominus]

Exactly....please tell me you at least got to helm one of those things.

I qualified on helmsman/planesman, yes.... rarely stood it though, my at sea watch station was most of the time FTOW. As FT div has to man two at sea stations with a 6 hour three shift rotation, and we only had 7 people (and the chief was usually either part of the COW or Diving Officer rotation)... couldn't usualyl spare the people to stand general stations like helm... that was mostly done by SK's and YN's.

Rather than sit at guages and needles indicates speed, course and depth, my primary excitement on watch at sea was taking these "....." (which represent a particular bearing from a sensor of some sort; sonar, visual, radar; at a particular time, and attempting to get them to stack on top of one another. Usually it was of course data from passive sonar. And I would have to use mathematical guess work to manipulate an assumes course, speed and range to get them to stack. It gets more interesting when you're doing a clandestine submerged transit of some highly trafficed straights somewhere and have to track 20 or 30 different contacts like that... because in the submarine world everything is a potential target... all other vessels tend to fall as either being potential hostile or actual hostile. So you'll in cases like that you'll be attempting to maintain 20 or 30 different firing solutions at all times.

Oh....I mostly flew around in a helicopter with lots of guns and scared the crap out of fishing boats
Only a half truth, did make a few stops. I dunno if I had to do the same mental math as you did but firing at a target about the size of a microwave while moving at 180 knots and having to factor in wind, you learn to do trig in your head in some fiendish fashion very very quickly.

[Nazi Flower Power]

You've got to have physical standards, but you don't need to exclude people based on gender. Some women can handle combat just as well as guys. It depends on the individual.

Personally, I would make a lousy soldier, but that's no reason to discriminate against other people.