Gillibrand - women in combat

[Ifreann]

i have

she beat the shit out of him (p.s. there's a reason police are pretty much never alone)

well that was fast

next point please

I believe the whole point of police training is the ability to subdue a suspect without the use of excess force, rather through proper technique. It requires a certain amount of physical exertion which favors a particular sex.

Nope, that favours particular people.

[SaintB]

Letting women fight in combat is special treatment! Equal treatment is special treatment when you talk about women and gays!

Oh from what I recall and have heard since women in the Military already get "Special Treatment" extra hazing, less support from commanding officers and male colleagues, people desperately trying to prove they cannot do their jobs by asking them to perform well beyond the requirements and then turning around and arguing "oh they have it easy".

Funny thing is they know all that, they take all that and despite the enhanced career attrition you will see more female General/Flag Grade Officers in the years to come and that will be its own answer.

I hope you realize I was being sarcastic.

[Tahar Joblis]

I see no reason why women shouldn't be on combat duty, all I see is a lot of misogynist attitudes, mostly from people who need to prove their manliness by never allowing a woman to do things better.

And the funny part is most of the e-pundits here probably wouldn't be able to pass basic if they did managed to score high enough on the ASVAB.

You never know about physical fitness. Funny thing is, it doesn't really correlate very well with intelligence or life experience. You can be in great shape and be a bonehead. In fact, since a lot of fitness activities are quite gendered, it's entirely possible for fitness nuts to be pretty unaware of the physical abilities of the opposite sex.

Storytime: Was getting into lifting for a little bit, and my buddy over in the philosophy department linked me to a website of some trainer who said "Well, this is what's good/great/average for men/women" relative to bodymass for bench/squat/deadlift; and then, when I went and compared those numbers to what people were actually posting on an amateur weightlifting forum, I noticed that the women were just blasting past his standards, while the men tended to have a lot of trouble, especially with respect to bench press. That "expert" opinion was way off in estimating the difference in upper body strength in men and women, in other words, once you actually work with a population that were all training in similar ways.

Me, my strength training class in high school was co-ed, and while nobody could touch me on leg press and only the big ol' football player could pass me on squats, third in the class on both of those was a woman, and there were three (!) girls in that class who could bench more than I did. I ran with the track and cross-country crowds for a couple of half-seasons, which is a sport that both men and women are involved in, and so I know quite well that one of the girls who benched more than I did (actually, she's the one that pushed me to join the cross-country team) could clock a 2 mile run in a time that the Army would be happy to see in a male recruit after he went through Basic. Let alone right out of the gate before Basic began.

The big thing about women is that they're smaller than men and have a higher floor to their body fat percentage. Per unit lean body mass, there's not much difference in strength. The military's needs in combat troops are for the most part nowhere near the actual limits of many men or women in terms of physical fitness - they start getting there with their special operative types, but it's still the same old saw about variation within and variation between. No good reason to keep a woman out of the Seals if she can hack the fitness standards.

[Ifreann]

No good reason to keep a woman out of the Seals if she can hack the fitness standards.

Sure there is. We already made a movie about that, G.I. Jane.

[Lakeland]

So long as women can match the same standards as men then it's fine by me. After all we're all "equal" right?

[Pope Joan]

KG is my hero.

"heroine" is so outdated.

I think you mean passé.

Ah, but of course. I just don't know how to make those acute accents on my keyboard.

[The UK in Exile]

So long as women can match the same standards as men then it's fine by me. After all we're all "equal" right?

(Image)

I love the smell of burning strawmen in the morning.

[El Gran Tropico]

I see no reason why women shouldn't be on combat duty, all I see is a lot of misogynist attitudes, mostly from people who need to prove their manliness by never allowing a woman to do things better.

And the funny part is most of the e-pundits here probably wouldn't be able to pass basic if they did managed to score high enough on the ASVAB.

Go U.S. Air Force and it's pitifully easy to pass BMT. The physical training is a piece of cake (50 pushups in 1 minute, 54 situps in 1 minute, and 1.5 miles in 12:57). The dormitory inspections s are a piece of cake, and anyone can learn to march in step. That said, the PT requirements for combat personnel are a bit more stringent (not more pushups/situps/distance per minute, but more sustained activity - 70+ pushups in 90 seconds, etc.) and might not be as easily achieved by female soldiers/sailors/airmen.

Still, you should recognize that 90% of people, male or female, should be able to pass at least the Air Forces minimum requirements for PT, given 6-8 weeks of intensive training under a competent drill instructor. Your comment about intelligence levels is also erroneous, and 80-90% of the populations should be able to score at least a 21 on the ASVAB - enough to place into USAF Sec. Forces or a few other roles.

[The Waiting Fox]

All this talk about the importance of fitness for women in combat shouldn't even be the point; being physically strong isn't important in all combat duties, and even where it's most important (infantry), it still isn't such a big deal: Being strong mentally is twenty times more important then being able to carry a lot of equipment for long distances, or even being strong enough to carry an injured soldier out of the line of fire; Armies use physical exercise as a fast way to build up the soldiers mentally for combat operations, everything else is just less important.

On a personal note, and after (unfortunately) seeing some combat, I can very decisively say that the strong-headed skinny guy will always do better, in almost every combat scenario, then a mountain of muscles that loses control after lacking some sleep and food- If someone, regardless of sex, proves s\he's good enough, s\he's probably good enough.

[Northern Dominus]

So long as women can match the same standards as men then it's fine by me. After all we're all "equal" right?

(Image)

And the point of comparing companion and working dogs to human beings is what exactly?

And the funny part is most of the e-pundits here probably wouldn't be able to pass basic if they did managed to score high enough on the ASVAB.

Go U.S. Air Force and it's pitifully easy to pass BMT. The physical training is a piece of cake (50 pushups in 1 minute, 54 situps in 1 minute, and 1.5 miles in 12:57). The dormitory inspections s are a piece of cake, and anyone can learn to march in step. That said, the PT requirements for combat personnel are a bit more stringent (not more pushups/situps/distance per minute, but more sustained activity - 70+ pushups in 90 seconds, etc.) and might not be as easily achieved by female soldiers/sailors/airmen.

Still, you should recognize that 90% of people, male or female, should be able to pass at least the Air Forces minimum requirements for PT, given 6-8 weeks of intensive training under a competent drill instructor. Your comment about intelligence levels is also erroneous, and 80-90% of the populations should be able to score at least a 21 on the ASVAB - enough to place into USAF Sec. Forces or a few other roles[/spoiler].

That's one service, and my insinuation still stands. By design basic training isn't just a series of fitness tests and drills, inspections, and tests. It's a crucible where all of those and more are thrown at you simultaneously. It is intentionally stressful. Yeah sure somebody can do umpteen pull-ups and 3 miles and can rub two neurons together to pass basic algebra, but doing it back to back to back while having somebody yell in your ear is another matter entirely.

Hence why this whole argument about pure physicality is bunk anyway. Yeah, somebody can pass the entrance requirements, but making it through basic is another proposition entirely. If somebody can blow away basic training requirements and has the ability, will and drive to perform combat roles, I want them in that role regardless of what superficial qualifiers somebody else might foist upon them.
The US Military has already done away with Don't Ask Don't Tell (and truthfully the only people it really affected were the homophobic senators and REMF 0-5's and up who haven't seen any deployment away from the desk since West Point or 'Nam), surely we can summon up the courage to demand that women are treated as equals in the US Military as well.

[Awesomeland]

I don't see why we need to cling to these antiquated roles. The fact of the matter is that modern warfare doesn't have "front lines". Anyone can be attacked at any time. Women are ALREADY in combat roles as a result. Why bother pretending that they aren't? Someone blown up by a roadside bomb is no less dead than someone killed in a firefight. If they can meet the requirements for doing it, there should be no reason why they can't.

[Ifreann]

So long as women can match the same standards as men then it's fine by me. After all we're all "equal" right?

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I think you mean passé.

Ah, but of course. I just don't know how to make those acute accents on my keyboard.

Firefox's spell-checker corrects them in sometimes. Though apparently it doesn't recognise "Firefox". Lulz.

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So long as women can match the same standards as men then it's fine by me. After all we're all "equal" right?

(Image)

And the point of comparing companion and working dogs to human beings is what exactly?

Obviously women are weaklings like Chihuahuas, good only for...'companionship', whereas men are the mighty German Shepherd who tears out the throats of evildoers and saves babies AT THE SAME TIME. RAWR, MEN! YEAH!

[Northern Dominus]

So long as women can match the same standards as men then it's fine by me. After all we're all "equal" right?

(Image)

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Ah, but of course. I just don't know how to make those acute accents on my keyboard.

Firefox's spell-checker corrects them in sometimes. Though apparently it doesn't recognise "Firefox". Lulz.

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And the point of comparing companion and working dogs to human beings is what exactly?

Obviously women are weaklings like Chihuahuas, good only for...'companionship', whereas men are the mighty German Shepherd who tears out the throats of evildoers and saves babies AT THE SAME TIME. RAWR, MEN! YEAH!

Clearly he's yet to meet a female fighter pilot. I've met and gotten to know a few from the Air Force and Navy. Dear god you want to talk about a tempered killer instinct...

[Lacadaemon]

I think women should have to register for selective service too. That they don't is an utter disgrace.

[Poorisolation]

So long as women can match the same standards as men then it's fine by me. After all we're all "equal" right?

(Image)

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Can I just say that logic sure does look sexy in that image.


Still back on topic: While I do not see women serving is equal numbers alongside men in the combat arms...it is more of a mindset than a physical condition thing....I really think that they will serve in increasing numbers is inevitable. Better to recognise that sooner rather than later as being made to feel stupid by women is a natural state for a man but we do get to influence the degree by being as smart as we can be.

[Ifreann]

I think women should have to register for selective service too. That they don't is an utter disgrace.

I rather nobody register, but if you're going to do it then clearly is should apply to men and women.

[Romania Mare1]

women dieing like animals in combat (to be read : like men ) and wasting their lives just to have the joy of seeing someone dieing full of blood ? I am all for it. I mean war is such a nice thing with all the blood and the psychopaths killing innocents for no reason and having your life in danger and stuff like that

[Ifreann]

women dieing like animals in combat (to be read : like men ) and wasting their lives just to have the joy of seeing someone dieing full of blood ? I am all for it. I mean war is such a nice thing with all the blood and the psychopaths killing innocents for no reason and having your life in danger and stuff like that

So what's your point? Women should be allowed in the military because they might die?

[Samuraikoku]

women dieing like animals in combat (to be read : like men ) and wasting their lives just to have the joy of seeing someone dieing full of blood ? I am all for it. I mean war is such a nice thing with all the blood and the psychopaths killing innocents for no reason and having your life in danger and stuff like that

You are one badass ITG.

[Dyakovo]

I think women should have to register for selective service too. That they don't is an utter disgrace.

I rather nobody register, but if you're going to do it then clearly is should apply to men and women.

Agreed.

[Maior Roma]

women dieing like animals in combat (to be read : like men ) and wasting their lives just to have the joy of seeing someone dieing full of blood ? I am all for it. I mean war is such a nice thing with all the blood and the psychopaths killing innocents for no reason and having your life in danger and stuff like that

So what's your point? Women should be allowed in the military because they might die?

Well, yeah. As well we should start putting cows, chickens, and pigs on the front lines too because they might die. Then everyone will stop fighting because there will be enough meat around to have a nice big barbecue. Because there's no vegetarians on the front lines, nor vegans.

[Romania Mare1]

women dieing like animals in combat (to be read : like men ) and wasting their lives just to have the joy of seeing someone dieing full of blood ? I am all for it. I mean war is such a nice thing with all the blood and the psychopaths killing innocents for no reason and having your life in danger and stuff like that

You are one badass ITG.

ITG ?
Also,my point is that they should be allowed to serve but I find it rather stupid to want to join the army. I mean,what do you gain ? The freedom to see others die or get killed yourself (or have a close friend dead ) ? If they like that then good for them
wait,just realized what ITG means. That was not my point,my point is that armies are rather stupid. Violence in general is retarded

[Ovisterra]

You are one badass ITG.

ITG ?
Also,my point is that they should be allowed to serve but I find it rather stupid to want to join the army. I mean,what do you gain ? The freedom to see others die or get killed yourself (or have a close friend dead ) ? If they like that then good for them
wait,just realized what ITG means. That was not my point,my point is that armies are rather stupid. Violence in general is retarded

Most people do it because of any combination of the below:

A) They support whatever war is being fought
B) They want to fight for/defend their country
C) They like the pay.

[Romania Mare1]

the they like the pay part : mercenaries,scum really.And when they die they are treated like heroes (when they are in fact cold blooded murderers ).
also,supporting wars that don't affect you is,in my eyes at least,stupid. I mean i can understand wars for helping suppressed populations but I think those should be swift (like : bomb the government,their supporters etc fast,install new government,leave )

[Norstal]

Clearly he's yet to meet a female fighter pilot. I've met and gotten to know a few from the Air Force and Navy. Dear god you want to talk about a tempered killer instinct...

Clearly he's never met a female. Ever.

Hell has no wrath like a woman scorned.