The American Civil War

[Farnhamia]

While I, in no way, endorse slavery, I do support indentured servitude, which the Union didnt, and also sort of liked the idea of a southern confederacy. Plus Lee was a bette person overall than Grant, (he actually released ALL his slaves 3 years before the war started, while Grant realeased his long after the war.) I still cannot say I wouldve supported the Confederacy, (because of the slavery) but I wouldnt have supported the Union either. (Because their just dumb.)

I wouldnt have fought for any of them, since I'm not a military person.

Maryland, Kentucky, Missouri, D.C., Maryland, Delaware. All were slave states, stayed in the Union, and only abolished slavery after the fourteenth amendment.

So what? The war was fought to preserve the Union. The states that seceded did so in order to preserve slavery.

[Prussia-Steinbach]

If Germany left the European Union, that would make them traitors to the Union?

If the EU was an integrated superstate, then yes, it would make them traitors. But given that it's still just a socioecomonic pact, then no.

The United States were not a state! They are States, as affirmed in the name.

[Farnhamia]

If the EU was an integrated superstate, then yes, it would make them traitors. But given that it's still just a socioecomonic pact, then no.

The United States were not a state! They are States, as affirmed in the name.

No. Perpetual union, by the Articles, to which the Constitutional government was the valid successor. And please don't bring up King George.

[The UK in Exile]

While I, in no way, endorse slavery, I do support indentured servitude, which the Union didnt, and also sort of liked the idea of a southern confederacy. Plus Lee was a bette person overall than Grant, (he actually released ALL his slaves 3 years before the war started, while Grant realeased his long after the war.) I still cannot say I wouldve supported the Confederacy, (because of the slavery) but I wouldnt have supported the Union either. (Because their just dumb.)

I wouldnt have fought for any of them, since I'm not a military person.

fact check would like a word with you.

the thirteenth amendment outlawed slavery on December 6, 1865. so everyone stopped right after the war,

[Aleckandor]

If the EU was an integrated superstate, then yes, it would make them traitors. But given that it's still just a socioecomonic pact, then no.

The United States were not a state! They are States, as affirmed in the name.

By superstate, I meant as in a large sovereign federation. And Farnhamia's backing of the argument is correct too.

[Wikkiwallana]

If the EU was an integrated superstate, then yes, it would make them traitors. But given that it's still just a socioecomonic pact, then no.

The United States were not a state! They are States, as affirmed in the name.

Yeah, the Constitution says otherwise.

[Prussia-Steinbach]

The United States were not a state! They are States, as affirmed in the name.

No. Perpetual union, by the Articles, to which the Constitutional government was the valid successor. And please don't bring up King George.

Thank you for bringing up the Articles of Confederation.
The Articles of Confederation also affirm every State as "free and independent."

[Wikkiwallana]

No. Perpetual union, by the Articles, to which the Constitutional government was the valid successor. And please don't bring up King George.

Thank you for bringing up the Articles of Confederation.
The Articles of Confederation also affirm every State as "free and independent."

What part of "replaced" is confusing you?

[Aleckandor]

Thank you for bringing up the Articles of Confederation.
The Articles of Confederation also affirm every State as "free and independent."

And they were replaced by the Constitution partly because of that, weren't they?

EDIT: Ninja'd.

[Farnhamia]

While I, in no way, endorse slavery, I do support indentured servitude, which the Union didnt, and also sort of liked the idea of a southern confederacy. Plus Lee was a bette person overall than Grant, (he actually released ALL his slaves 3 years before the war started, while Grant realeased his long after the war.) I still cannot say I wouldve supported the Confederacy, (because of the slavery) but I wouldnt have supported the Union either. (Because their just dumb.)

I wouldnt have fought for any of them, since I'm not a military person.

fact check would like a word with you.

the thirteenth amendment outlawed slavery on December 6, 1865. so everyone stopped right after the war,

Indeed. I was surprised to hear Grant had owned a slave, since he was never well-off prior to the war. Lee's views on slavery are typical of his class.

[Zathganastan]

No. Perpetual union, by the Articles, to which the Constitutional government was the valid successor. And please don't bring up King George.

Thank you for bringing up the Articles of Confederation.
The Articles of Confederation also affirm every State as "free and independent."

From the Rule of Great Britain.Here's a slight overview of what the articles did.

"Under the Articles, the states retained sovereignty over all governmental functions not specifically relinquished to the national government. The individual articles set the rules for current and future operations of the United States government. It was made capable of making war and peace, negotiating diplomatic and commercial agreements with foreign countries, and deciding disputes between the states, including their additional and contested western territories. Article XIII stipulated that "their provisions shall be inviolably observed by every state" and "the Union shall be perpetual". John Dickinson and Benjamin Franklin's handwritten drafts of the Articles of Confederation are housed at the National Archives in Washington, DC."

[The UK in Exile]

If the EU was an integrated superstate, then yes, it would make them traitors. But given that it's still just a socioecomonic pact, then no.

The United States were not a state! They are States, as affirmed in the name.

"I, Robert E Lee, appointed a Ensign in the Army of the United States, do solemnly swear, or affirm, that I will bear true allegiance to the United States of America, and that I will serve them honestly and faithfully against all their enemies or opposers whatsoever, and observe and obey the orders of the President of the United States, and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to the rules and articles for the government of the Armies of the United States."

he betrayed that oath.

[Farnhamia]

No. Perpetual union, by the Articles, to which the Constitutional government was the valid successor. And please don't bring up King George.

Thank you for bringing up the Articles of Confederation.
The Articles of Confederation also affirm every State as "free and independent."

What part of "Perpetual Union" are you having trouble with? And since the Preamble to the Constitution says its purpose is to form a "more perfect union" ... I'm not sure what a more perfectly perpetual union there could be, save the United States of America.

[Farnhamia]

The United States were not a state! They are States, as affirmed in the name.

"I, Robert E Lee, appointed a Ensign in the Army of the United States, do solemnly swear, or affirm, that I will bear true allegiance to the United States of America, and that I will serve them honestly and faithfully against all their enemies or opposers whatsoever, and observe and obey the orders of the President of the United States, and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to the rules and articles for the government of the Armies of the United States."

he broke that oath.

He did actually resign his commission, I believe, before joining the forces of Virginia. Lee always felt he was defending his state more than anything else. Short-sighted, in such an ostensibly honorable man. George Thomas had better sense, though his sisters turned his portrait to the wall for the rest of their lives.

[Cu Math]

While I, in no way, endorse slavery, I do support indentured servitude, which the Union didnt, and also sort of liked the idea of a southern confederacy. Plus Lee was a bette person overall than Grant, (he actually released ALL his slaves 3 years before the war started, while Grant realeased his long after the war.) I still cannot say I wouldve supported the Confederacy, (because of the slavery) but I wouldnt have supported the Union either. (Because their just dumb.)

I wouldnt have fought for any of them, since I'm not a military person.

Maryland, Kentucky, Missouri, D.C., Maryland, Delaware. All were slave states, stayed in the Union, and only abolished slavery after the fourteenth amendment.

Well, this is a Nope. D.C is not a state. . Oh, and Maryland, DC, and Missouri abolished slavery before the war ended. So try again.
P.S. you're thinking O' the 13th amendment.

[Tunasai]

"trai·tor/ˈtrātər/
Noun:
A person who betrays a friend, country, principle, etc."

Nope, don't see how. They were loyal to their countries/States.

They betrayed the United States of America. They disavowed all loyalty to the rightful United States government in order to found their own nation. That is the act of a traitor.

I tried making that point earlier. As a Northern Republican I recognize the desire for State's rights and I approve, but no matter I would still support the Union. Together the two survive, apart they fall. We are ONE nation. After seeing this thread go on and on it seems when things get tough people just want to quit. We are ONE nation, not two and I will never support a secession. As a Conservative Republican let me put this in context.

Lets say in a very unlikely situation a large group of states decided to rebel against Obama and the Democrats, these are Red states. The Republican States separate after Obama begins to take money out of the military and put it into entitlement programs. Know who I would side with? I would side, not with the Republicans, but with MY NATION. I would fight against the separatists, because we are one nation

[Rick Rollin]

also, the south did not treat the native american tribes any better than the rest of the states. the trail of tears started in the dixie states after all.

The "Dixie States"did not pass the Indian Removal Act. Washington did, with consent from plenty of Northerners. Not the States' fault, in any conceivable way.

Yes it was. The South benefited from and wanted the Trail.

when they started the civil war the natives became "allies of convience" does anyone truely believe a slave holding nation

What nation?

The Confederacy!

whose plantation economy was based on the idea that another race of people are inferior,

The entirety of America was what we would call racist in the 19th century.

The South was far more racist and you know it. Blacks don't count.

Also, hardly anyone owned a plantation. Stop watching so much "Gone with the Wind" and "North and South."

And not everyone runs a corporation.

let along the apachie were still fighting the texans during the whole escapade

Not sure what that has any bearing on.

Conclusion: Helping the South had little benefit for the indians, which is why they didn't do it.

Not shedding blood for a cause you don't believe in is hardly bad.


They betrayed their rightful Federal Government, turning their backs to fight for the slave-holding South. They were traitors in the very sense of the word.

"trai·tor/ˈtrātər/
Noun:
A person who betrays a friend, country, principle, etc."

Nope, don't see how. They were loyal to their countries/States.

And disloyal to the Feds.

Well, to put it in simple terms (excuse my middle school logic), the South seceded from the Union. The Union's government did not appreciate this and the crises eventually escalated into armed conflict between the two factions, and hence, the South being 'rebels' and 'traitors' to the Union and not to themselves in the least.

If Germany left the European Union, that would make them traitors to the Union?

Technically yes. Assuming the EU didn't want it.

If the EU was an integrated superstate, then yes, it would make them traitors. But given that it's still just a socioecomonic pact, then no.

The United States were not a state! They are States, as affirmed in the name.

And supertropes aren't tropes.

[The UK in Exile]

"I, Robert E Lee, appointed a Ensign in the Army of the United States, do solemnly swear, or affirm, that I will bear true allegiance to the United States of America, and that I will serve them honestly and faithfully against all their enemies or opposers whatsoever, and observe and obey the orders of the President of the United States, and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to the rules and articles for the government of the Armies of the United States."

he broke that oath.

He did actually resign his commission, I believe, before joining the forces of Virginia. Lee always felt he was defending his state more than anything else. Short-sighted, in such an ostensibly honorable man. George Thomas had better sense, though his sisters turned his portrait to the wall for the rest of their lives.

ah, a pattern emerges, any time the south doesn't like the rules. It quits and starts it own club. i'm pretty sure thats not what was meant by true allegiance. (true unless inconvenient.)

[Vulpae]

Lee was an honorable (not perfect of course) man by any standard, and in my opinion a respected and respectable enemy.
he accepted his defeat graciously as well, and grant allowed him to surrender in good form instead of lining him and his boys against a wall.

it is also recorded that years later in a small virginia court house he shocked the entire congregation by taking comunion alongside a freed african, and thereafter treated them well.

he never betrayed The Oath, he resigned his comission first.

He almost fought for the union, but he couldn't bring himself to attack his home state.

I also say thank god for his blunder at gettysburg.

[Maurepas]

He did actually resign his commission, I believe, before joining the forces of Virginia. Lee always felt he was defending his state more than anything else. Short-sighted, in such an ostensibly honorable man. George Thomas had better sense, though his sisters turned his portrait to the wall for the rest of their lives.

ah, a pattern emerges, any time the south doesn't like the rules. It quits and starts it own club. i'm pretty sure thats not what was meant by true allegiance. (true unless inconvenient.)

True, but the problem with that stance, from a purely founding principle standpoint, is that is largely the basis for the United States leaving the United Kingdom too.

[Wikkiwallana]

ah, a pattern emerges, any time the south doesn't like the rules. It quits and starts it own club. i'm pretty sure thats not what was meant by true allegiance. (true unless inconvenient.)

True, but the problem with that stance, from a purely founding principle standpoint, is that is largely the basis for the United States leaving the United Kingdom too.

The United States was bossing Britain around and got upset the first time Britain got its way for a change?

Edit: typo

[Farnhamia]

ah, a pattern emerges, any time the south doesn't like the rules. It quits and starts it own club. i'm pretty sure thats not what was meant by true allegiance. (true unless inconvenient.)

True, but the problem with that stance, from a purely founding principle standpoint, is that is largely the basis for the United States leaving the United Kingdom too.

Not really. The colonists asked to be included in the governance of Great Britain, of which they considered themselves citizens. Among their wishes was to be taxed with their consent rather than without it. They were told no, they weren't full citizens, so please behave and pay your taxes. After some years of trying to get what they considered their rights as citizens, they rebelled and were successful. The South, on the other hand, had full rights of participation in the US government. Indeed, they had provided at least half the Presidents. They had forced the Federal government to make a deal with them over slavery at least twice, in 1820 and 1850. When, in 1860, someone opposed to slavery was elected President, despite their still formidable position in the government, they decided to rebel. They didn't succeed.

[Tmutarakhan]

If the EU was an integrated superstate, then yes, it would make them traitors. But given that it's still just a socioecomonic pact, then no.

The United States were not a state! They are States, as affirmed in the name.

"All the Russias" had a plural title as well. Are you still leaning on that absurd bit of semantics?

[Bejar]

Being born in the South and Black, I hope I would try my best to escape North and join one of the Black Regiments. But more likely I'd be practicing passive resistance like millions of other slaves did during the war and wait General Sherman to save me from the damned slaveholders.

[TaQud]

Well Dictators have pretty much made Kings basically look like Tyrannts. (Like King George 3)

King George III? A tyrant? Have you read any history outside of your third-grade American history book?

Well to An American he's been painted and drwaned as "A Dictator" in American Propoganda