The American Civil War

[Myrensis]

With that being said, as a Cherokee, my goal would have been to defeat the union. Even with the benifit of hindsight, I think Indian peoples were right to fight against the north for what Jackson did just 20 years or so earlier, the trail of tears gave us "just cause". It is oftened overlooked that the Cherokee under Stand Watie were the last to surrender to the union. Native americans should have fought against the union, if for no other reason, just to try & stop, or delay the union army from commiting acts of genocide after the war with their newly found millitary machine turned westward.

Do you actually think you would have fared much better in the face of an expanding Confederacy?

[Tsa-la-gi Nation]

I would have fought with my countrymen & neighbors. If I lived in the south I would have fought for the south. If I lived in the north I would have fought for the north. Before the age of the automobile, how your neighbors viewed you & your statis in your community was actually was very important.

With that being said, as a Cherokee, my goal would have been to defeat the union. Even with the benifit of hindsight, I think Indian peoples were right to fight against the north for what Jackson did just 20 years or so earlier, the trail of tears gave us "just cause". It is oftened overlooked that the Cherokee under Stand Watie were the last to surrender to the union. Native americans should have fought against the union, if for no other reason, just to try & stop, or delay the union army from commiting acts of genocide after the war with their newly found millitary machine turned westward.

Ironic, because Georgia was the state that did them in.

Point taken. But the Cherokee did the right thing, instead of killing Georgia squatters & prospectors, they appealed to the law & ultimately went to the surpreme court for their grievances & won. Jackson did what he did in defiance of the Supreme Court & his friends, the Cherokee who fought by his side in the Creeks wars. If it wasn't for the Cherokee & the Lower Creek & their brave charge against Red Stick defences, Jackson & his men would not have been sucessful at the battle of Horseshoe Bend.

[Wikkiwallana]

The government of France has POWERS. The people of France have RIGHTS.

You''re applying American constitutional principles to a foreign government and people.

No, that is true of all governments.

Edit: typo

[Wikkiwallana]

Nope, the Southern States were defending themselves from the Union.

They declared war and fired the first shots, idiot. You don't do either when you're "only defending".

There's no call for flaming.

[The Black Forrest]

The South was rebelling, so, yeah, rebellion.

Nope, the Southern States were defending themselves from the Union.

Oohhhhh

So attacking Fort Sumter was a mistake by of blind gunner who kept tyring to fire a warning shot?

[Fedeledland]

Nope, the Southern States were defending themselves from the Union.

Oohhhhh

So attacking Fort Sumter was a mistake by of blind gunner who kept tyring to fire a warning shot?

When you think it was just in the middle of the capital of a Confederate state, that Lincoln had already claimed it would not let the South exist as an independent nation, and that tension was rising anyways, it's not as offensive as you make it look like.

[Farnhamia]

Oohhhhh

So attacking Fort Sumter was a mistake by of blind gunner who kept tyring to fire a warning shot?

When you think it was just in the middle of the capital of a Confederate state, that Lincoln had already claimed it would not let the South exist as an independent nation, and that tension was rising anyways, it's not as offensive as you make it look like.

85 men who were short on supplies, such a menace.

[The Black Forrest]

Oohhhhh

So attacking Fort Sumter was a mistake by of blind gunner who kept tyring to fire a warning shot?

When you think it was just in the middle of the capital of a Confederate state, that Lincoln had already claimed it would not let the South exist as an independent nation, and that tension was rising anyways, it's not as offensive as you make it look like.

Bad leadership. Lincoln was looking for an excuse so they have give one all wrapped up nice......

[Wikkiwallana]

Why? Why should provinces have the rights of countries?

It allows more political diversity throughout the nation. E.g. This state doesn't want healthcare, this one does, you chose to live in the one that agrees with your political beliefs.

"Don't like it, then move" is antithetical to democracy.

[Fedeledland]

When you think it was just in the middle of the capital of a Confederate state, that Lincoln had already claimed it would not let the South exist as an independent nation, and that tension was rising anyways, it's not as offensive as you make it look like.

85 men who were short on supplies, such a menace.

It's still a fort in the middle of the capital of the first state to secede.

[Zathganastan]

Oohhhhh

So attacking Fort Sumter was a mistake by of blind gunner who kept tyring to fire a warning shot?

When you think it was just in the middle of the capital of a Confederate state, that Lincoln had already claimed it would not let the South exist as an independent nation, and that tension was rising anyways, it's not as offensive as you make it look like.

The fort was federal property and Lincolns goals while against secession leaned more towards peaceful reintegration instead of military action so the fact still remains that the south was acting as the aggressor.

[The Black Forrest]

85 men who were short on supplies, such a menace.

It's still a fort in the middle of the capital of the first state to secede.

A fort which was cut off and offered no serious threat.

[Fedeledland]

When you think it was just in the middle of the capital of a Confederate state, that Lincoln had already claimed it would not let the South exist as an independent nation, and that tension was rising anyways, it's not as offensive as you make it look like.

The fort was federal property and Lincolns goals while against secession leaned more towards peaceful reintegration instead of military action so the fact still remains that the south was acting as the aggressor.

Federal property, yes, but if you seceded from a nation and the nation kept a fort off your first state's capital, which was threatening your nation with annexation anyways, and which had tacit support from Europe, you might've reacted the same way. It was definitely not the act of imperialistic agression you're all making it look like.

[Wikkiwallana]

It's kinda irrelevant what Cuba thinks. Just like it's irrelevant what the South thought. The law's the law. Neither Cuba nor the South could just renegotiate the terms without the permission of the other party simply because management changed.

Special circumstances (really in both given that Guantanamo is annexation of the land by another name). But where land is owned by a government while it governs over an area, when that area declares independence you don't treat the previous government like a private landholder because in this case it isn't one. The federal government in 1841 had South Carolina as a part of it, it was collective ownership.

It's farcical to suggest that when an area declares independence a now foreign government can just keep the military installations in the new country.

What's farcical is the suggestion that an area can just unilaterally declare independence and thereby ownership of everything in and around it.

[Farnhamia]

85 men who were short on supplies, such a menace.

It's still a fort in the middle of the capital of the first state to secede.

The capital of South Carolina is and always has been Columbia, a hundred miles from Charleston and Fort Sumter.

[Fedeledland]

It's still a fort in the middle of the capital of the first state to secede.

A fort which was cut off and offered no serious threat.

Except a huge blow to Confederate prestige.

[Fedeledland]

It's still a fort in the middle of the capital of the first state to secede.

The capital of South Carolina is and always has been Columbia, a hundred miles from Charleston and Fort Sumter.

Fine then, and sorry for that, in the middle of the first state to secede's second largest city.

[The Black Forrest]

A fort which was cut off and offered no serious threat.

Except a huge blow to Confederate prestige.

So let's attack the fort and give a political gold mine to the North for war.

If they surrounded the fort and starved them out; problem averted

[Fedeledland]

Except a huge blow to Confederate prestige.

So let's attack the fort and give a political gold mine to the North for war.

If they surrounded the fort and starved them out; problem averted

Could still be a cassus belli.

[Farnhamia]

The capital of South Carolina is and always has been Columbia, a hundred miles from Charleston and Fort Sumter.

Fine then, and sorry for that, in the middle of the first state to secede's second largest city.

Being the first state to secede is hardly the point. Secession was the wrong way to go about getting what the South wanted. A little patience might have handed them the entire country, open to their "peculiar institution," conceivably to the end of the century. The Southern leaders were fools and traitors and they deluded the ordinary people of the South into dying for a dishonorable cause.

[Farnhamia]

So let's attack the fort and give a political gold mine to the North for war.

If they surrounded the fort and starved them out; problem averted

Could still be a cassus belli.

It was, because the rebels fired on the fort.

[Fedeledland]

Fine then, and sorry for that, in the middle of the first state to secede's second largest city.

Being the first state to secede is hardly the point. Secession was the wrong way to go about getting what the South wanted. A little patience might have handed them the entire country, open to their "peculiar institution," conceivably to the end of the century. The Southern leaders were fools and traitors and they deluded the ordinary people of the South into dying for a dishonorable cause.

Because a little patience worked out perfectly well for the South during the nullification crisis.

[Zathganastan]

The fort was federal property and Lincolns goals while against secession leaned more towards peaceful reintegration instead of military action so the fact still remains that the south was acting as the aggressor.

Federal property, yes, but if you seceded from a nation and the nation kept a fort off your first state's capital, which was threatening your nation with annexation anyways, and which had tacit support from Europe, you might've reacted the same way. It was definitely not the act of imperialistic aggression you're all making it look like.

No I wouldn't, I for one wouldn't be stupid enough to attack my former nation when it for the most part has shown reluctance to military force.The fact of the matter is they attacked a fort that barely even had the man power to hold the fortification little lone launch any real attack.

[Fedeledland]

Could still be a cassus belli.

It was, because the rebels fired on the fort.

Starving it out is also a possible cassus belli, and the United States would've probably looked around for one anyways.

[Farnhamia]

Being the first state to secede is hardly the point. Secession was the wrong way to go about getting what the South wanted. A little patience might have handed them the entire country, open to their "peculiar institution," conceivably to the end of the century. The Southern leaders were fools and traitors and they deluded the ordinary people of the South into dying for a dishonorable cause.

Because a little patience worked out perfectly well for the South during the nullification crisis.

It did, they got the offensive tariffs reduced for ten years.