Do you consider Humans to be Animals?

[Old Tyrannia]

Ants' problem is that while they are incredibly versatile, succesful and industrious, they work on instinct whereas we work on intelligence. Their societies are thus much more efficient and stable than ours, but also less able to advance. In evolution, there's always trade offs. The simplified image of having a hierarchy of species from most primitive to most derived is a falsehood- we're no more 'advanced' than vipers or grass, just specialised in different ways.

I beg to differ. Different specializations have different ceilings. Theres only so far you can go with being an expert swordsman. You are pretty much stuck with being able to stab things really well. But be an expert engineer? All sorts of possibilities open up.

We are more advanced because our particular specialization has a longer, if less user friendly, tech tree.

You may be right, but more sophisticated life forms aren't neccesarily 'superior'. The more advanced we become, the more specialized we become- and the more vulnerable we become to a change in our environment. Often it's the most basic, unspecialized and generalized species that survive the longest, since they're better able to adapt.

[The Emerald Legion]

I beg to differ. Different specializations have different ceilings. Theres only so far you can go with being an expert swordsman. You are pretty much stuck with being able to stab things really well. But be an expert engineer? All sorts of possibilities open up.

We are more advanced because our particular specialization has a longer, if less user friendly, tech tree.

You may be right, but more sophisticated life forms aren't neccesarily 'superior'. The more advanced we become, the more specialized we become- and the more vulnerable we become to a change in our environment. Often it's the most basic, unspecialized and generalized species that survive the longest, since they're better able to adapt.

Except much of our specialization is taking unfriendly environments and remaking them to be useful.

[Djang]

You may be right, but more sophisticated life forms aren't neccesarily 'superior'. The more advanced we become, the more specialized we become- and the more vulnerable we become to a change in our environment. Often it's the most basic, unspecialized and generalized species that survive the longest, since they're better able to adapt.

Except much of our specialization is taking unfriendly environments and remaking them to be useful.

But in doing so we are shortening the time we as a species can survive.

[Old Tyrannia]

You may be right, but more sophisticated life forms aren't neccesarily 'superior'. The more advanced we become, the more specialized we become- and the more vulnerable we become to a change in our environment. Often it's the most basic, unspecialized and generalized species that survive the longest, since they're better able to adapt.

Except much of our specialization is taking unfriendly environments and remaking them to be useful.

On a small scale. A much bigger environmental change, such as another ice age or a meteor impact such as the one that wiped out the dinosaurs, could easily condemn us to extinction.

[The Emerald Legion]

Except much of our specialization is taking unfriendly environments and remaking them to be useful.

On a small scale. A much bigger environmental change, such as another ice age or a meteor impact such as the one that wiped out the dinosaurs, could easily condemn us to extinction.

Why?

Except much of our specialization is taking unfriendly environments and remaking them to be useful.

But in doing so we are shortening the time we as a species can survive.

^Why?

[Djang]

On a small scale. A much bigger environmental change, such as another ice age or a meteor impact such as the one that wiped out the dinosaurs, could easily condemn us to extinction.

Why?

But in doing so we are shortening the time we as a species can survive.

^Why?

We're seriously fucking up the ecosystem and we have enough nuclear weapons to cleanse the earth of almost all life.

[Huskvarneque]

So, humans have intellect, what else? Quite frankly all we have is our intelligence, we don't have hearing as good as some animals, out sense of smell is just ridiculous, we can't run real fast, we don't have a jaw-full of sharp teeth to fight with, we don't have sharp claws, we can't sense when an earthquake will strike... the list keep going. Without that little bit of intellect we have, we'd be a weak species. Sorry, having just one thing over other's isn't much of a divider, animals have advantages that we don't have, and we have some they don't.

And in D&D 3.5 all wizards have is spellcasting. Still doesn't stop them from easily curbstomping everything else.

Hearing? We've solved that.

Smell is worthless. The only theoretical use for it is tracking, and guess what? We have GPS, along with litteral eyes in the sky. We don't need smell.

Run really fast? Wheels are better. We have cars.

Jaw full of sharp teeth? No I merely have a foot long piece of sharp metal that could, If I were stronger, Easily behead most animals I would come across. As it is I can still put the hurt on most things relying on claws or teeth.

Claws? See above. And I'm anachronistic as far as violence is concerned, Guns would simply reduce them to chunks of gore before they even knew what happened.

We know when earthquakes will strike. It's called seismology.

Everything you can mention animals have. machinery does it better. Really the only thing the animal kingdom has is running off of garbage.

Besides the fact that you are forgetting is the human race used to hunt down those animals before it was inspired.

lol@ D&D Ref That's just cause' mages are the shit....

Yah, sure, we have machines to help us, but without all these inventions we'd be screwed, thus back to my previous statement, all we have is our intellect. We have no natural advantages, so we are left to make things for the disadvantages we have.

(P.S. No, there is no exact way to predict when an earthquake will strike... sorry. Though, it's been seen that some non-human animals can predict it, and actually move to a safe place prior to it happening. )

[The Emerald Legion]

Why?



^Why?

We're seriously fucking up the ecosystem and we have enough nuclear weapons to cleanse the earth of almost all life.

And this means all humans will die how? We can survive the ecosystems death. Maybe not everyone. But it'd be a start.

And in D&D 3.5 all wizards have is spellcasting. Still doesn't stop them from easily curbstomping everything else.

Hearing? We've solved that.

Smell is worthless. The only theoretical use for it is tracking, and guess what? We have GPS, along with litteral eyes in the sky. We don't need smell.

Run really fast? Wheels are better. We have cars.

Jaw full of sharp teeth? No I merely have a foot long piece of sharp metal that could, If I were stronger, Easily behead most animals I would come across. As it is I can still put the hurt on most things relying on claws or teeth.

Claws? See above. And I'm anachronistic as far as violence is concerned, Guns would simply reduce them to chunks of gore before they even knew what happened.

We know when earthquakes will strike. It's called seismology.

Everything you can mention animals have. machinery does it better. Really the only thing the animal kingdom has is running off of garbage.

Besides the fact that you are forgetting is the human race used to hunt down those animals before it was inspired.

lol@ D&D Ref That's just cause' mages are the shit....

Yah, sure, we have machines to help us, but without all these inventions we'd be screwed, thus back to my previous statement, all we have is our intellect. We have no natural advantages, so we are left to make things for the disadvantages we have.

(P.S. No, there is no exact way to predict when an earthquake will strike... sorry. Though, it's been seen that some non-human animals can predict it, and actually move to a safe place prior to it happening. )

I was under the impression we get roughly a few minutes warning unless at the epicenter?

Except the machines are a part of us. Really that is humanity to me. The machines. It isn't the people. It's what the people do. It's what they think.

As for D&D yes. Yes they are.

[Old Tyrannia]

On a small scale. A much bigger environmental change, such as another ice age or a meteor impact such as the one that wiped out the dinosaurs, could easily condemn us to extinction.

Why?

Well, for one thing we'd all begin to freeze to death. Our crops would fail. Sea levels would fall, the climate would get much drier, and much of the northern hemisphere would be covered in glaciers.

[The Emerald Legion]

Why?

Well, for one thing we'd all begin to freeze to death. Our crops would fail. Sea levels would fall, the climate would get much drier, and much of the northern hemisphere would be covered in glaciers.

Step 1: Quit being scared of it for stupid reasons and build more nuclear power plants.

Step 2: Energy crisis more than solved turn on our electrical heating.

Step 3: Begin indoor farming.

Step 4: Laugh at wildlife.

Step 5: ???

Step 6: Profit.

[Huskvarneque]

We're seriously fucking up the ecosystem and we have enough nuclear weapons to cleanse the earth of almost all life.

And this means all humans will die how? We can survive the ecosystems death. Maybe not everyone. But it'd be a start.

lol@ D&D Ref That's just cause' mages are the shit....

Yah, sure, we have machines to help us, but without all these inventions we'd be screwed, thus back to my previous statement, all we have is our intellect. We have no natural advantages, so we are left to make things for the disadvantages we have.

(P.S. No, there is no exact way to predict when an earthquake will strike... sorry. Though, it's been seen that some non-human animals can predict it, and actually move to a safe place prior to it happening. )

I was under the impression we get roughly a few minutes warning unless at the epicenter?

Except the machines are a part of us. Really that is humanity to me. The machines. It isn't the people. It's what the people do. It's what they think.

As for D&D yes. Yes they are.

Machines a part of us?! I'm no cyborg.... machines are tools that we utilize, that's it. Scary that the movie matrix comes to mind now.... fuuuu I'm just saying, we have our advantages, other species have there's, trying to make it seem that we are in some way so much better than other animal species is going a bit far.

And I'm quite sure we don't, at least, I haven't heard of anything having that ability.... I could be wrong, it's possible I might have just not heard of it, but I doubt it. Though, anyone finds something saying otherwise, please say.... I like being educated. xD

[Tekania]

Well we ain't plants.

For the most part I agree... however I have met people who have challenged my opinion on that matter.

[The Emerald Legion]

And this means all humans will die how? We can survive the ecosystems death. Maybe not everyone. But it'd be a start.



I was under the impression we get roughly a few minutes warning unless at the epicenter?

Except the machines are a part of us. Really that is humanity to me. The machines. It isn't the people. It's what the people do. It's what they think.

As for D&D yes. Yes they are.

Machines a part of us?! I'm no cyborg.... machines are tools that we utilize, that's it. Scary that the movie matrix comes to mind now.... fuuuu I'm just saying, we have our advantages, other species have there's, trying to make it seem that we are in some way so much better than other animal species is going a bit far.

And I'm quite sure we don't, at least, I haven't heard of anything having that ability.... I could be wrong, it's possible I might have just not heard of it, but I doubt it. Though, anyone finds something saying otherwise, please say.... I like being educated. xD

Well I was under the impression that the signals sent by the sensors would beat the actual quake by a minute or two.

Philisophical thing with me. Any tool you use is merely an extension of yourself. A sword is an extra long sharp arm. A computer is a better memory and voice. Etc.

Plus I do want to be a cyborg so it would literally be true.

[Straight From Above]

Well we ain't plants.

For the most part I agree... however I have met people who have challenged my opinion on that matter.

You met someone who insisted we are plants?

Was he/she partaking of a particular plant at the time?

[The Darwinian People]

I answered yes because I accept that we are, in the scientific sense, animals. I do, however, believe that we have earned the right to distinguish our selves from the other, sub-human, animals because of the construction of moral laws that are not based on instinct.

But we have commited genocide many times before, I'm pretty sure moral laws didn't influence that. Also, when you get down to it we are violent creatures, even when society frowns upon violence we find outlets. Whether that means violent video games, martial arts or just fucking around with your mates, we find ways.

Violence =/= Immorality

Also I said that we are distinguished by our construction of moral laws not our obedience to them.

[Tekania]

For the most part I agree... however I have met people who have challenged my opinion on that matter.

You met someone who insisted we are plants?

Was he/she partaking of a particular plant at the time?

No, I've met people who make me think some people may be plants.

[Straight From Above]

Violence =/= Immorality

Also I said that we are distinguished by our construction of moral laws not our obedience to them.

Visiting Space Alien Ambassador: The breadth of your various moral codes are quite extraordinary. Do you find all the different ones become confusing?

Human Host: Sometimes, but we don't always obey them. Its sort of something we asymptotically approach.

Visiting Space Alien Ambassador: You...you don't actually abide by these elaborate and sometimes violently argued rules?

Human Host: Not always, no. Sometimes we try. And you have to admit, some of them are very pretty to read.

Visiting Space Alien Ambassador: Indeed. Um, on an unrelated note, what's your weapon technology like?

[Straight From Above]

You met someone who insisted we are plants?

Was he/she partaking of a particular plant at the time?

No, I've met people who make me think some people may be plants.

Heehee..so they weren't aware they were serving as a counterexample...which makes them all the more plant-like, I suppose.

[Huskvarneque]

Machines a part of us?! I'm no cyborg.... machines are tools that we utilize, that's it. Scary that the movie matrix comes to mind now.... fuuuu I'm just saying, we have our advantages, other species have there's, trying to make it seem that we are in some way so much better than other animal species is going a bit far.

And I'm quite sure we don't, at least, I haven't heard of anything having that ability.... I could be wrong, it's possible I might have just not heard of it, but I doubt it. Though, anyone finds something saying otherwise, please say.... I like being educated. xD

Well I was under the impression that the signals sent by the sensors would beat the actual quake by a minute or two.

Philisophical thing with me. Any tool you use is merely an extension of yourself. A sword is an extra long sharp arm. A computer is a better memory and voice. Etc.

Plus I do want to be a cyborg so it would literally be true.

Ehh... seismology really isn't a strong point with me... perhaps a long night of an internet study will allow me to understand it enough to efficiently understand it... whatever. xD I've also meet other's that think that way, I guess I can understand it, though, I still think they're just tools....

And nay for me... I like my fleshy self.... >.>"

[The Darwinian People]

If you can point out why morality isn't a good enough example.

Because it's subjective, and not every individual holds the same morality. While some people say killing is bad, for example, other's say it isn't, and heck, we kill, destroy, and attempt to commit genocide, as proven by earlier history of our species. You're really going to argue we're so much better because we try and dictate our lives off of something so minuscule as Morality?

I do not believe morality is subjective, what "some people say" is irrelevant. (But that is a discussion for another time).

Even If I accept that morality is subjective it is still a distinct human characteristic: the construction of moral laws. To clarify, I did not say that all humans were obedient to moral laws nor did I say that our obedience to them was what distinguishes us. I said that, simply, our construction of moral laws was what made us distinct from sub-human animals; regardless of whether or not other followed any one of our moral codes better than we do ourselves.

[Huskvarneque]

Because it's subjective, and not every individual holds the same morality. While some people say killing is bad, for example, other's say it isn't, and heck, we kill, destroy, and attempt to commit genocide, as proven by earlier history of our species. You're really going to argue we're so much better because we try and dictate our lives off of something so minuscule as Morality?

I do not believe morality is subjective, what "some people say" is irrelevant. (But that is a discussion for another time).

Even If I accept that morality is subjective it is still a distinct human characteristic: the construction of moral laws. To clarify, I did not say that all humans were obedient to moral laws nor did I say that our obedience to them was what distinguishes us. I said that, simply, our construction of moral laws was what made us distinct from sub-human animals; regardless of whether or not other followed any one of our moral codes better than we do ourselves.

So the fact that we simply made laws makes us better.... uhhuh... Did you know in some wolf packs, it actually violates the Alpha wolfs "law" for another pack member to mate with a female? That right there shows that animals can have a form of government, and a form of laws to govern that group.

I also might add that I don't get how being "sub-human" means anything, you're sub-wolf, sub-otter, sub-cougar because you don't possess some of the adaptations they possess.... Again with humans thinking everything about them is superior.

[Zottistan]

Absolutely. The most advanced form of terrestrial animal and the only terrestrial animal capable of complex thought, but man is an animal nonetheless.

[The Darwinian People]

I do not believe morality is subjective, what "some people say" is irrelevant. (But that is a discussion for another time).

Even If I accept that morality is subjective it is still a distinct human characteristic: the construction of moral laws. To clarify, I did not say that all humans were obedient to moral laws nor did I say that our obedience to them was what distinguishes us. I said that, simply, our construction of moral laws was what made us distinct from sub-human animals; regardless of whether or not other followed any one of our moral codes better than we do ourselves.

So the fact that we simply made laws makes us better.... uhhuh... Did you know in some wolf packs, it actually violates the Alpha wolfs "law" for another pack member to mate with a female? That right there shows that animals can have a form of government, and a form of laws to govern that group.

I also might add that I don't get how being "sub-human" means anything, you're sub-wolf, sub-otter, sub-cougar because you don't possess some of the adaptations they possess.... Again with humans thinking everything about them is superior.

No, that is inherited instinctual behaviour.

I am not making a value judgement when I say 'sub-human' I am simply distinguishing humanity from all of the other animals, we have a certain skill that no other animal posses as we are, thus, distinct. For example, if Chimpanzee started to formulate systems of ruler-ship or morality distinct from their inherited hierarchical instinct then I would consider them 'non-human' but not 'sub-human' as they would then posses the skill that distinguishes from all other animals.

[The Anglo-Saxon Empire]

Biologically we are animals, but it relates to nothing at all because we are different than other animals, we are self aware and are capable of creating civilizations.

[The Emerald Legion]

Actually this raises an interesting question for me.

What would a true, almost no flesh left, cyborg be? What about an AI?

Would we need a whole new kingdom to file them in? What would it be called?