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The Bahá'í Faith

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Distruzio
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The Bahá'í Faith

Postby Distruzio » Sun May 06, 2012 5:10 pm

Since my first thread was locked b/c I built it with an unintentional potentially offensive premise, I've reconstituted it to explain my opinion and ask your opinion on a subject. That subject being the Bahá'í Faith. It is the most repulsive faith I've ever come across.

Now that I've got your attention, I suppose I should elaborate. I'm Eastern Orthodox and about as anti-Protestant as one can get. I do my best to refrain from leveling unwarranted dismissal on the bibliolotrous thumpers but it's a frailty that I think I'll struggle with forever. I just can't seem to avoid viewing the sola scripturist Protestant as nothing less than an idolater. Even then, however, Protestantism is offensive only to my concept of Christianity and the State.

As an anarchist, I find the State to be anathema. Protestant churches, by and large, emphasize submission to the nation-state and God whereas the Catholic, Anglican, and Orthodox Churches all emphasize submission to God through the Church and then to secular authority. According to Christianity, only the Church is universal. Protestantism tends to lend one to believe the Church is spiritually universal, and that the State is, therefore, the machination to be used to secure the Church's role in the world. That being said, Protestantism does not violate my ethics and merely perverts my concept of Christianity despite it's elevation of the State.

In fact, all other faiths, to a greater or lesser degree, are merely unsatisfactory to me. Satanism and Taoism are wonderfully individualistic where Islam and Empiricism tend to be monolithic and unbending. All in all, they are all simply not favorable to me. They don't repulse me entirely. My entire personality is built around my social/economic/political hermeneutic, my cultural (that includes religion) hermeneutic, and my ethical hermeneutic. Each are interrelated and not wholly separable. I do my best, however, to approach a particular concern (taxation, GSM rights, religion, etc) with a clear mind and an attempt to best identify precisely what about the concern offends me. As I said, few things violate every one of my values.

The Bahá'í Faith, however, does. Everything about this faith, that I've read so far, offends all of my values. I can find common ground with Jews, Muslims, and even Protestants; my housekeeper is Taoist and a lady friend is Zen Buddhist; I have Empiricist friends as well as Satanist friends and I can relate to everyone in some way. I'm friends with Statists and leftists, pedophiles and zealots, each of whom I differ with on some fundamental basis but can, in the grand scheme of things, rest assured that I love them all and do not dismiss them out of hand.

Bahá'í is foreign to me. It elevates the exact opposite of everything I value.

Shoghi Effendi wrote:The independent search after truth, unfettered by superstition or tradition; the oneness of the entire human race, the pivotal principle and fundamental doctrine of the Faith; the basic unity of all religions; the condemnation of all forms of prejudice, whether religious, racial, class or national; the harmony which must exist between religion and science; the equality of men and women, the two wings on which the bird of humankind is able to soar; the introduction of compulsory education; the adoption of a universal auxiliary language; the abolition of the extremes of wealth and poverty; the institution of a world tribunal for the adjudication of disputes between nations; the exaltation of work, performed in the spirit of service, to the rank of worship; the glorification of justice as the ruling principle in human society, and of religion as a bulwark for the protection of all peoples and nations; and the establishment of a permanent and universal peace as the supreme goal of all mankind—these stand out as the essential elements [which Bahá'u'lláh proclaimed].



Bahá'u'lláh and his followers advocate a perverted cultural appropriation that seeks to lay claim to all the world religions and all aspects of those cultures as though they had common heritage with them.

Wiki wrote:The Bahá'í teachings state that there is but one religion which is progressively revealed by God, through prophets/messengers, to mankind as humanity matures and its capacity to understand also grows. The outward differences in the religions, the Bahá'í writings state, are due to the exigencies of the time and place the religion was revealed.



They emphatically claim that this is not syncretism, and I believe them, which is why I believe it is cultural appropriation (not assimilation). They aren't trying to unite all the faiths, per se. They say all the faiths are already one faith b/c they say so.

Further, they advocate that God is inaccessible, which is a direct repudiation of the Christian faith.

Wiki wrote:The Bahá'í teachings state that there is only one God and that his essence is absolutely inaccessible from the physical realm of existence and that, therefore, his reality is completely unknowable. Thus, all of humanity's conceptions of God which have been derived throughout history are mere manifestations of the human mind and not at all reflective of the nature of God's essence.



Christ is God and His Church is His body on Earth. The Bahá'í are denying the Trinity and the concept of grace and salvation so central to historical Christianity.

Finally, and most offensively, Bahá'í is a religion that advocates a unity of humanity.

Wiki wrote:The Bahá'í teaching of the unity of humanity (also known as the oneness of humanity) stems from the teaching that all humans have been created equal in the image of God, and that God does not make any distinction between people
.


We are all one organic being and, as the logic extends, require one world gov't and State to manage us (naturally, with Bahá'í as the official religion). I trust you can imagine my grimace at this point. I'm not an egalitarian. No one is equal to anyone save before the grace of God. We are all created equally humble before Him but none of us are loved in the same way by Him. He is especially fond of each of us in our own unique way, God is greater than an arbitrary attempt to quantify his love.

This last offense is the final nail in the coffin for me and Bahá'u'lláh, the incarnation of God for them. Not just because it violates my religious conception, or my political conception, but b/c it violates my ethics, from which my religion and political ideal are derived. To say that I am equal to another is to deny my complete self-sovereignty. To say that I am equally entitled to an equal amount of love another person is entitled to from God is to deny not only my complete self-sovereignty, but His as well.

The following is a list of principles that the faithful uphold. I am diametrically opposed to each and every one in its entirety, and I am quite serious about that statement.

Wiki wrote:Unity of God
Unity of religion
Unity of humankind
Equality between men and women
Elimination of all forms of prejudice
World peace
Harmony of religion and science
Independent investigation of truth
Principle of Ever-Advancing Civilization
Universal compulsory education
Universal auxiliary language
Obedience to government and non-involvement in partisan politics unless submission to law amounts to a denial of Faith.
Elimination of extremes of wealth and poverty



Now, I know that the equality between men and women is the real kicker, especially for other libertarians. Generally speaking, most folks are okay with the idea that a woman is every bit as valuable as a man is. But I said above that, " I am diametrically opposed to each and every one in its entirety, and I am quite serious about that statement," remember? Why? How can I oppose equality between the genders? B/c the statement excludes GSM's. I find nothing in their faith allowing for recognition of gender/sexuality minorities (GSM's) whatsoever. I know that's curious to find a very conservative Christian saying but it's true. I'm libertarian, not authoritarian. The historical Christian faiths each say that GSM's are NOT sinners but engage in sinful activity when they marry outside the Church or engage in sexual relations outside marriage. Therefore, the GSM who is active and unrepentant finds themself outside the Church but not outside God's grace or love. No GSM will go to hell for having sex or for being what they are, they'll just be outside the Church until they repent - that is libertarian and it is the historical Christian faith perspective. Bahá'í is, however, a faith that declares all are equal and then Bahá'í denies recognition of a significant portion of humanity and it, therefore, cries authoritarianism to me - especially when Bahá'í attempts to appropriate all other faiths as part of itself.

To summarize, the Bahá'í Faith is the most repulsive faith I've ever come across.

I will confess that I find myself lamentably and dangerously unconcerned with discriminatory practices against the Bahá'í, and that is a flaw. It is a flaw I must grow past, but it is there. Similar in fashion to my sympathies with the Objectivist perspective on collectivists denying individuality and, therefore, not really deserving recognition as sovereign in their own way. I find myself at risk of favoring a reactionary position against those whom I find utterly repulsive. Now I know that it is wrong and, in accepting aggression against the Bahá'í and the collectivist, I violate my own hermeneutic, so I work to avoid accepting it. But it's there. I know its there. I simply have to be on guard against it.

So, NSG, I wonder - what is your perspective on the Bahá'í Faith?
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Postby Conserative Morality » Sun May 06, 2012 5:13 pm

Ew.

I've seen worse though.
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Postby Volnotova » Sun May 06, 2012 5:15 pm

Having met a Bahá'í and had the pleasure of having it explained to me: The entire syncretism of the movement, its cultural appropriation and the fact that they dogmatically associate God with the non-physical makes it difficult for me to sympathise with them.

Nevertheless, they are a product of God and their numbers are despite being negligible in comparison with the world's major religions numerous nevertheless.

EDIT: I do despise their egalitarianism. God did not make all people equal.

Some where destined to rule over and dominate others. While others were made to submit and condemned to lives of servitude and oppression.
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Postby Pope Joan » Sun May 06, 2012 5:16 pm

To me, Baha'i is to Islam as Unitarianism is to Christianity.

Innocent, philosophical, attractive to adherents who want to think nice thoughts, but finally irrelevant.
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Postby Hammurab » Sun May 06, 2012 5:19 pm

They also don't explicitly reject non-employees having shit on their hands in those signs in Bahai restaurant bathrooms that say "employees must wash hands before returning to work".

And they made no attempt to kill Hitler. Zero. Not one sniper shot, not one fake hollowed out beer keg of mustard gas poured down a bunker air vent, not one over-sized 1940's telephone bludgeoning.

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Postby Greater Tezdrian » Sun May 06, 2012 5:22 pm

A disgusting form of pseudo-deistic pantheist dribble that is unhealthily internationalist and is disturbingly reckless with the traditions of others.
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Postby Distruzio » Sun May 06, 2012 5:24 pm

Pope Joan wrote:To me, Baha'i is to Islam as Unitarianism is to Christianity.

Innocent, philosophical, attractive to adherents who want to think nice thoughts, but finally irrelevant.


I like this, PJ. Very much, actually.
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Postby Risottia » Sun May 06, 2012 5:26 pm

Distruzio wrote:Since my first thread was locked b/c I built it with an unintentional potentially offensive premise, I've reconstituted it to explain my opinion and ask your opinion on a subject. That subject being the Bahá'í Faith. It is the most repulsive faith I've ever come across.

Frankly, doesn't come out more repulsive than the average monotheism. :meh:

...I'm Eastern Orthodox ... As an anarchist, I find the State to be anathema.

Lol. No contradiction whatsoever... caesaropapism, who ever heard of that?
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Postby Hammurab » Sun May 06, 2012 5:26 pm

Greater Tezdrian wrote:A disgusting form of pseudo-deistic pantheist dribble that is unhealthily internationalist and is disturbingly reckless with the traditions of others.


As one of the bottom quartile Americans, I think all internationalism is unhealthy.
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Postby Distruzio » Sun May 06, 2012 5:29 pm

Risottia wrote:
Distruzio wrote:Since my first thread was locked b/c I built it with an unintentional potentially offensive premise, I've reconstituted it to explain my opinion and ask your opinion on a subject. That subject being the Bahá'í Faith. It is the most repulsive faith I've ever come across.

Frankly, doesn't come out more repulsive than the average monotheism. :meh:

...I'm Eastern Orthodox ... As an anarchist, I find the State to be anathema.

Lol. No contradiction whatsoever... caesaropapism, who ever heard of that?


Caesaropapism is not doctrine and each Orthodox Patriarchate has acknowledged that, historically, Caesaropapism was the mistaken belief that the Kingdom of God could be made manifest on earth by men. It can't. They know better now and doctrine has been clarified to better reflect this.
Last edited by Distruzio on Sun May 06, 2012 5:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Greater Tezdrian » Sun May 06, 2012 5:30 pm

Risottia wrote:Lol. No contradiction whatsoever... caesaropapism, who ever heard of that?

I see Orthodoxy is not your strong point.
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Postby Indeos » Sun May 06, 2012 5:32 pm

I didn't read the whole thing, because I'm lazy, but most of it seemed idealistic at worst. Maybe not things I agree with, but not something that I can read about and immediately despise. I feel like even a lack of recognition for GSMs is more something that wasn't thought of than a statement against them. (Since other bits just refer to humanity, it specifically says to condemn any form of prejudice, and calls for science and religion to coexist in harmony.)

I suppose it sounds a lot worse when you're religious, since it by definition doesn't uphold any other religion, but that's hardly a point against the faith itself. It's like saying Buddhism is an abomination because it isn't Christianity.
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Postby EnragedMaldivians » Sun May 06, 2012 5:34 pm

Greater Tezdrian wrote:A disgusting form of pseudo-deistic pantheist dribble that is unhealthily internationalist and is disturbingly reckless with the traditions of others.


Eh, didn't Christianity and then Islam both liberally borrow from other, older, traditions as well?
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Postby Cosmopoles » Sun May 06, 2012 5:35 pm

It totally doesn't bother me at all. In fact, as an atheist I find the anger at them for appropriating various deities and prophets to be quite hilarious - its like getting pissed off because someone else says they are talking to your imaginary friends.

Egalitarianism doesn't really inspire much disgust in me either - no harmless belief does.

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Postby Cosmopoles » Sun May 06, 2012 5:36 pm

EnragedMaldivians wrote:Eh, didn't Christianity and then Islam both liberally borrow from other, older, traditions as well?


Relevant even if its not entirely accurate.
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Postby Distruzio » Sun May 06, 2012 5:37 pm

Indeos wrote:I didn't read the whole thing, because I'm lazy, but most of it seemed idealistic at worst. Maybe not things I agree with, but not something that I can read about and immediately despise. I feel like even a lack of recognition for GSMs is more something that wasn't thought of than a statement against them. (Since other bits just refer to humanity, it specifically says to condemn any form of prejudice, and calls for science and religion to coexist in harmony.)

I suppose it sounds a lot worse when you're religious, since it by definition doesn't uphold any other religion, but that's hardly a point against the faith itself. It's like saying Buddhism is an abomination because it isn't Christianity.


They aren't saying that they are separate from Christianity. They are saying that Christianity is ultimately Bahá'í. They aren't assimilating or suggesting difference. They are appropriating other cultures for their own.
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Postby Unchecked Expansion » Sun May 06, 2012 5:39 pm

I find the idea that all religions are a little bit true better than the Abraham idea that all other religions are false. The admission of an unknowable god is also a lot more reasonable than insisting that god is knowable, but hiding.

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Postby Greater Tezdrian » Sun May 06, 2012 5:39 pm

EnragedMaldivians wrote:
Greater Tezdrian wrote:A disgusting form of pseudo-deistic pantheist dribble that is unhealthily internationalist and is disturbingly reckless with the traditions of others.


Eh, didn't Christianity and then Islam both liberally borrow from other, older, traditions as well?

Yes, but they didn't invalidate them by claiming they're all the same thing.
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Postby Nightkill the Emperor » Sun May 06, 2012 5:39 pm

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Postby Indeos » Sun May 06, 2012 5:40 pm

Distruzio wrote:
Indeos wrote:I didn't read the whole thing, because I'm lazy, but most of it seemed idealistic at worst. Maybe not things I agree with, but not something that I can read about and immediately despise. I feel like even a lack of recognition for GSMs is more something that wasn't thought of than a statement against them. (Since other bits just refer to humanity, it specifically says to condemn any form of prejudice, and calls for science and religion to coexist in harmony.)

I suppose it sounds a lot worse when you're religious, since it by definition doesn't uphold any other religion, but that's hardly a point against the faith itself. It's like saying Buddhism is an abomination because it isn't Christianity.


They aren't saying that they are separate from Christianity. They are saying that Christianity is ultimately Bahá'í. They aren't assimilating or suggesting difference. They are appropriating other cultures for their own.


I understand that. I fail to see why it matters; their explanation is that all the religions are from the same deity, but cultural differences has caused them to appear different. It's a hypothesis that can't really be proven or disproven, and really only "offensive" if you're religious. Even then, only if you actually care what other religions say. I'm neither, therefore I see no problems. (In fact, I suppose it's ultimately possible that they're right.)
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Postby Revolutopia » Sun May 06, 2012 5:42 pm

Greater Tezdrian wrote:
EnragedMaldivians wrote:
Eh, didn't Christianity and then Islam both liberally borrow from other, older, traditions as well?

Yes, but they didn't invalidate them by claiming they're all the same thing.


So you are saying Christianity didn't claim to be the fulfillment of Judaism, nor did Islam claim itself to be the true revelation of Allah with Christianity and Judaism being incomplete?

Yeah, the Baha'i are no worse then any other religion.

Distruzio wrote: They are appropriating other cultures for their own.


So they are Christians to Christianity's Jews?
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Postby Liriena » Sun May 06, 2012 5:43 pm

The Bahá'í Faith sounds pretty decent to me.

The fact that it doesn't ask for it's dogma to be imposed upon others makes it a very positive thing to me.

As for the "stealing the dogma of other faiths"...yeah...Christmas, anyone?
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Postby Page » Sun May 06, 2012 5:43 pm

I studied Baha'i for my comparative religions class and met a group of Baha'i's in my city, they are some of the most intelligent and insightful members of a religious group I have ever come across. Needless to say I completely disagree with the OP.

I was going to take the OP apart and contradict it point by point, but I realize that this is largely a matter of ideology. I am a leftist and an internationalist. Obviously someone with strong right-wing politics is going to find Baha'i at odds with their own beliefs. I am not sure I can really debate the OP without simply debating every aspect of political ideology there is. If people believe a more united world with less disparity in wealth, and a universal right to education for everyone is a negative thing, because they believe it will ruin their precious profit motives and whatever else they think drives human progress, they are obviously not going to have a positive view of Baha'i.

I will note that I am myself an atheist, as well as a bisexual. I do think Bahai's position on GSM leaves something to be desired. Do I wish they were more progressive? Absolutely. But at least Baha'is realize that what they view as God's message for the world constantly changes and our species matures. Not to mention, they also state that they do not view homosexuality as something which should be singled out. Organized Baha'is have never given a dime to any kind of political cause against LGBT, which is more than I can say for most denominations of Christianity. Bahai's are in fact, a non-clergy religion, democratic in structure, and do not believe in using religion as means of pushing a political agenda - which makes them quite benign, so I have no idea why someone would find their religion to be such a threat.

The only causes Baha'is advocate for and fund are for justice and human rights. So even though I completely disagree with their position on LGBT, I'm not going to hold that against them because I know unlike many Christian churches, they won't pour money that is supposed to be feeding the poor into politicking for taking away my rights. And if they want to advocate for universal education and for Bahai's persecuted in Iran, so be it. Baha'is are jailed in Iran just for teaching their kids how to read. Baha'i women are raped in prisons in Iran every day. If you want to be apathetic towards the Iranian state's atrocities then be that way, but if you tacitly admit to sympathizing with the Islamic fundamentalist oppression there, then it is you who are the authoritarian.

To call Baha'i authoritarian ignores the fact that it has no central authority, ignores the fact they eschew participation in politics (except to advocate for world wide human rights), and ignores the most basic tenet of their faith that everyone has an individual responsibility to search for truth. It is easy to post a religion's dogma and criticize it, but the faith itself is so much more than that.
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Postby Distruzio » Sun May 06, 2012 5:43 pm

Indeos wrote:
Distruzio wrote:
They aren't saying that they are separate from Christianity. They are saying that Christianity is ultimately Bahá'í. They aren't assimilating or suggesting difference. They are appropriating other cultures for their own.


I understand that. I fail to see why it matters; their explanation is that all the religions are from the same deity, but cultural differences has caused them to appear different. It's a hypothesis that can't really be proven or disproven, and really only "offensive" if you're religious. Even then, only if you actually care what other religions say. I'm neither, therefore I see no problems. (In fact, I suppose it's ultimately possible that they're right.)


To be honest, I wouldn't care either if part of their faith wasn't advocacy of one world gov't and one world State with Bahá'í as the one world faith. Unitarians are, generally, confused heretics but are, otherwise, harmless b/c I've never read a Unitarian doctrine suggesting they wanted to coercively integrate all other peoples into themselves. The Bahá'í do say that.
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Postby Diseased Imaginings » Sun May 06, 2012 5:43 pm

slightly less repulsive than the abrahamic faiths, though still repulsive in its own right. Harmony between religion and science indeed... science has no need of religion.
"This topic brings me to that worst outcrop of herd life, the military system, which I abhor... This plague-spot of civilization ought to be abolished with all possible speed. Heroism on command, senseless violence, and all the loathsome nonsense that goes by the name of patriotism -- how passionately I hate them!" -Albert Einstein

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