Jocabia is a douchebag, but does he have rights?

[Czardas]

Sentient doesn't mean "human".

Cats and dogs are sentient, and yet people own them as property, and killing one is considered nothing more than destruction of property. Children are sentient, yet they lack the same rights as adults do until the age of majority has been reached. Clearly, there's more at play here than whether or not something is sentient.

I'd say unless it's (a) human and (b) has reached maturity, you still have the right to own (or at least make legally binding decisions for) it. Hence, I would like to sell you a Jocabia. We're having a sale, they're 30% off this week.

[Phenia]

What is sentience, really?

I don't know, what is it?

I asked first.

[Kamsaki]

As Hegel understands it (and I happen to agree with), rights are those things which are a consequence of the realization of individual will when individuals, having adopted a position in society and being given qualities by their social and natural environment, in turn act on themselves. Correspondingly, it actually has only as much to do with sentience as sentience is an instance of this principle.

A Machine, an Animal or an inanimate object must have rights that correspond to the extent to which they can act to change and express themselves, having been given the ability to do so by the society and world they find themselves in. The machine, in as much as it can alter its own state, is having those rights violated when others impose themselves violently upon it, and similarly so for the animal. In the case of the inanimate object, however, the Douchebag has not been granted the ability by the world to in any way consider or modify itself, and only has the right to express itself as much as its expressiveness is dictated to it by others.

[Douchebaggerry]

I never minded Jocabia, but apparently a lot of people on UMP do.

Yeah for good reason.

[Glorious Freedonia]

And the what now?

I'll speak more slowly.

If...your....computer....developed....sentinence...should...it....have....rights?

How...sentinent...do...non-humans...have....to...be...to...'earn'...rights?

Finally people have slowed down their computer speech so that I can finally follow along.

[LOL ANARCHY NUBZ]

LOL. I hear he has rectal warts. At least that's what the cool kids are saying.

They're not cool, you've been lied to.

[Neesika]

TL;DR - the only rights that exist are the ones we give things, unless they can give the rights to themselves.

Now that's interesting...so dolphins may have conceived of dolphiny rights, and if they could communicate those rights to us, we'd be aware of what they are...

But if we alone confer rights upon ourselves, do those rights actually exist?

[Neesika]

LOL. I hear he has rectal warts. At least that's what the cool kids are saying.

I like your name.

Douchebags don't have rectums.

[Czardas]

TL;DR - the only rights that exist are the ones we give things, unless they can give the rights to themselves.

Now that's interesting...so dolphins may have conceived of dolphiny rights, and if they could communicate those rights to us, we'd be aware of what they are...

But if we alone confer rights upon ourselves, do those rights actually exist?

Well, of course. Rights exist just as much as justice, truth, freedom, and love exist; that is to say, they are figments of our imagination, but sufficiently pervasive ones that everyone accepts their existence.

Since we have not yet conferred any rights upon sentient douchebags, you can still own a Jocabia. That offer won't last forever, you know. We're getting calls already.

[Kamsaki]

Douchebags don't have rectums.

Except possibly in the sense that Cats have Humans?

[Neesika]

Well, of course. Rights exist just as much as justice, truth, freedom, and love exist; that is to say, they are figments of our imagination, but sufficiently pervasive ones that everyone accepts their existence.

Since we have not yet conferred any rights upon sentient douchebags, you can still own a Jocabia. That offer won't last forever, you know. We're getting calls already.

I don't want ownership of Jocabia. Ownership brings along with it responsibilities I'm unwilling to shoulder.

[Neesika]

Douchebags don't have rectums.

Except possibly in the sense that Cats have Humans?

oooh, nice one!

[Neesika]

Well, of course. Rights exist just as much as justice, truth, freedom, and love exist; that is to say, they are figments of our imagination, but sufficiently pervasive ones that everyone accepts their existence.

Since we have not yet conferred any rights upon sentient douchebags, you can still own a Jocabia. That offer won't last forever, you know. We're getting calls already.

So then, are rights always conferred upon those of lesser power by those who are in power?

[Czardas]

Well, of course. Rights exist just as much as justice, truth, freedom, and love exist; that is to say, they are figments of our imagination, but sufficiently pervasive ones that everyone accepts their existence.

Since we have not yet conferred any rights upon sentient douchebags, you can still own a Jocabia. That offer won't last forever, you know. We're getting calls already.

I don't want ownership of Jocabia. Ownership brings along with it responsibilities I'm unwilling to shoulder.

Well, you could always just deny him the rights other sentient beings would normally receive without penalty, if you really do want to shirk responsibility.

Still, that's a bit like kicking a puppy you don't own -- whoever does own the puppy will get upset.

[Muravyets]

But I did actually see video of a dolphin getting into a conversation with a human and making the human look a complete fool.

Lolwut?

Yeah, it was great. I saw it on TLC years ago. Apparently, some scientists were studying vocal communication among wild dolphins in this place in the Caribbean where the sea is shallow and a lot of wild dolphins hang out. So they had these recordings of various dolphin calls, and they were playing them via an underwater speaker to see how the dolphins would react.

So one day, a couple of the scientists are in the water with the equipment, setting it up -- and they are just standing on the sandy bottom in their scuba gear -- when this pod of dolphins arrives. The older, more dominant animals kept their distance because, I guess, you know, humans are obnoxious. But the younger males decided investigate and they started swimming around the divers quite close.

So one of the scientists gets the bright idea to play the audio and see how the animals would react. Here's what happened:

The speaker plays a call. One of the dolphins repeats it. The speaker repeats. The dolphin repeats. The speaker repeats a third time. The dolphin repeats AND ADDS TO THE CALL.

Hm.

Okay, the speaker repeats the original call. The dolphin repeats it and repeats its addition AND ADDS MORE. The speaker repeats only the original call.

At this point, the dolphin decided to get even more to the point with the diver. So the diver is standing there, next to his black box with the speaker in it.

And the dolphin swims up to him and then, very slowly, maneuvers itself into an upright position and then sinks down so it is "standing" on its tail flukes, just the way the human is standing on his swim-fins. It took about a minute to finish the positioning. The other scientist, with the camera, caught it all. And then the dolphin repeats its calls again. And the scientist is just standing there like a moron.

Then the other dolphins called and the whole pod left.

I don't know what dolphin is for "huhu, u phail, stoopid hoomin" but I wouldn't be surprised if that is on the video, too.

Later, in the boat, the scientist remarked that he had never felt so stupid in his life.

[Czardas]

Well, of course. Rights exist just as much as justice, truth, freedom, and love exist; that is to say, they are figments of our imagination, but sufficiently pervasive ones that everyone accepts their existence.

Since we have not yet conferred any rights upon sentient douchebags, you can still own a Jocabia. That offer won't last forever, you know. We're getting calls already.

So then, are rights always conferred upon those of lesser power by those who are in power?

More or less, yes. Of course, power in this case also means influence on future generations. Hence all the legal and moral systems based off the Old Testament and the Qu'ran and the Code of Hammurabi.

(I originally wrote that as the Coda of Hammurabi. I probably need a break from writing musical essays. :<)

[Neesika]

Yeah, it was great. I saw it on TLC years ago. Apparently, some scientists were studying vocal communication among wild dolphins in this place in the Caribbean where the sea is shallow and a lot of wild dolphins hang out. So they had these recordings of various dolphin calls, and they were playing them via an underwater speaker to see how the dolphins would react.

So one day, a couple of the scientists are in the water with the equipment, setting it up -- and they are just standing on the sandy bottom in their scuba gear -- when this pod of dolphins arrives. The older, more dominant animals kept their distance because, I guess, you know, humans are obnoxious. But the younger males decided investigate and they started swimming around the divers quite close.

So one of the scientists gets the bright idea to play the audio and see how the animals would react. Here's what happened:

The speaker plays a call. One of the dolphins repeats it. The speaker repeats. The dolphin repeats. The speaker repeats a third time. The dolphin repeats AND ADDS TO THE CALL.

Hm.

Okay, the speaker repeats the original call. The dolphin repeats it and repeats its addition AND ADDS MORE. The speaker repeats only the original call.

At this point, the dolphin decided to get even more to the point with the diver. So the diver is standing there, next to his black box with the speaker in it.

And the dolphin swims up to him and then, very slowly, maneuvers itself into an upright position and then sinks down so it is "standing" on its tail flukes, just the way the human is standing on his swim-fins. It took about a minute to finish the positioning. The other scientist, with the camera, caught it all. And then the dolphin repeats its calls again. And the scientist is just standing there like a moron.

Then the other dolphins called and the whole pod left.

I don't know what dolphin is for "huhu, u phail, stoopid hoomin" but I wouldn't be surprised if that is on the video, too.

Later, in the boat, the scientist remarked that he had never felt so stupid in his life.

I wonder if dolphins have decided we aren't worth conferring rights to?

[Jocabia]

LOL. I hear he has rectal warts. At least that's what the cool kids are saying.

Even my rectal warts are sentient.

[Xsyne]

LOL. I hear he has rectal warts. At least that's what the cool kids are saying.

Even my rectal warts are sentient.

Do they need someone to start the reactor?

[Jocabia]

I am Jocabia and I approve of this message.

[Jocabia]

LOL. I hear he has rectal warts. At least that's what the cool kids are saying.

Even my rectal warts are sentient.

Do they need someone to start the reactor?

Reactor? I barely know 'er.

[Czardas]

I am Jocabia and I approve of this message.

What conferred upon you the right to approve this message?

[Muravyets]

I wonder if dolphins have decided we aren't worth conferring rights to?

I would, if I were them.

[Neesika]

LOL. I hear he has rectal warts. At least that's what the cool kids are saying.

Even my rectal warts are sentient.

If douchebags could have rectal warts, would their rights stem from YOUR rights, or would they exist independently of your rights, even though they would (the rectal warts) not exist independently of you?

[Jocabia]

Well, of course. Rights exist just as much as justice, truth, freedom, and love exist; that is to say, they are figments of our imagination, but sufficiently pervasive ones that everyone accepts their existence.

Since we have not yet conferred any rights upon sentient douchebags, you can still own a Jocabia. That offer won't last forever, you know. We're getting calls already.

I don't want ownership of Jocabia. Ownership brings along with it responsibilities I'm unwilling to shoulder.

It's not your shoulder that would bear the responsibility.