Pilot for Dutch low cost carrier arrested: see why!

[Mikertaz Kein]

Hm...I do like this topic. This seems to be even more proof of how sick and twisted human beings can be. I mean(and I am not saying its right...) why couldn't they just execute them, murder them in the streets, poison them? Did they really have to go through such lengths just to dispose of their enemies? The sheer number of victims alone suggest high costs. Aircraft, fuel, drugs, etc.

I am appalled at this and honestly I think he should get life imprisonment in the sickest hellhole of a prison the world has to offer.

[Galloism]

How bad is it, when my first thought was, What type/model aircraft did they use?

...

I admit nothing.

Well, I was just thinking about how high up they were when they dumped the bodies, and if they used a non-pressurized aircraft.

I mean before DB Cooper, Boeing 727s had those hatch at the rear of the aircraft.

True, but he went through 30,000 people. Imagine how long that would take dumping them out one at a time.

It would be best to use a cargo plane that had a large rear hatch, just bring up the nose to the point that you're just above stall speed and let em dump out the back.

[Gauntleted Fist]

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

Apparently there was a reopening of the case in 2005 after the government found that the Catholic Church was involved in some of the disappereances.

ah, but were these Disappearances due to foul play or did the church 'smuggle' them out with new Identities?

*prays it's the latter.*

The Church in Argentina has been accused, mainly cardinal Jorge Bergoglio, of conspiring to kidnap 2 Jesuit priests. The cardinal was the superior figure in the Society of Jesus of Argentina during 1976 and had asked the two priests to leave their pastoral work following conflict within the Society over how to respond to the new military dictatorship, with some priests advocating a violent overthrow.

the Church in Argentina =|= Catholic Church as a whole.

but even then...

Yes, it is sad. I was raised a Catholic. Any involvement of it as a whole or locally is sad for me.

[Wilgrove]

How bad is it, when my first thought was, What type/model aircraft did they use?

...

I admit nothing.

Well, I was just thinking about how high up they were when they dumped the bodies, and if they used a non-pressurized aircraft.

I mean before DB Cooper, Boeing 727s had those hatch at the rear of the aircraft.

True, but he went through 30,000 people. Imagine how long that would take dumping them out one at a time.

It would be best to use a cargo plane that had a large rear hatch, just bring up the nose to the point that you're just above a stall and let em dump out the back.

Hmm, C-130? or the C-17 Globemaster?

[Bitchkitten]

Nothing wrong with that, it was a war.

IMHO you are an idiot. I could be wrong, but I doubt it.

[Vault 10]

True, but he went through 30,000 people. Imagine how long that would take dumping them out one at a time.

Not exactly he. The Dirty War had up to 30,000 people disappear. That means only a small fraction of them was killed this way, and only a fraction of that fraction was done by this pilot.

[Douchebaggerry]

IMHO you are an idiot. I could be wrong, but I doubt it.

Could just be extremely cold. Or trolling.

[Muravyets]

Not making any reference to that. I just don't understand the mind that can do what this pilot did.

They guy thought - and thinks - he was killing worthless terrorist scum. Criminal filth.

Which just goes to show just how sad war really is. No side wins.

True. But one has to wonder if we would be equally horrified if the guys he helped throw out the plane had been Al Queda terrorists.

I would. Because there's a big difference between killing an enemy in war, and making up bizarre theatrical scenarios by which to play out a murder. One is an unfortunate evil of warfare. The other is pure psycho.

I don't care who the psycho killer is killing, he's still a psycho killer and I'm horrified by him.

[Lackadaisical2]

Apparently there was a reopening of the case in 2005 after the government found that the Catholic Church was involved in some of the disappereances.

ah, but were these Disappearances due to foul play or did the church 'smuggle' them out with new Identities?

*prays it's the latter.*

I read what was in wiki, it seems that there was involvement in a few cases(one of which has no concrete evidence), however beyond that it doesn't mention anything. So I'm not sure what you're referring to here Nanatsu. So what we have is one person who was in the Catholic church (? the article just says he was a chaplain, so I guess we'll assume hes a priest) does not make for the involvement of an entire organization.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

Apparently there was a reopening of the case in 2005 after the government found that the Catholic Church was involved in some of the disappereances.

ah, but were these Disappearances due to foul play or did the church 'smuggle' them out with new Identities?

*prays it's the latter.*

I read what was in wiki, it seems that there was involvement in a few cases(one of which has no concrete evidence), however beyond that it doesn't mention anything. So I'm not sure what you're referring to here Nanatsu. So what we have is one person who was in the Catholic church (? the article just says he was a chaplain, so I guess we'll assume hes a priest) does not make for the involvement of an entire organization.

This.

[Bluth Corporation]

The allegations are horrible, and if it can be proven he was involved, he should be punished to the fullest extent of the law.

Was what he specifically did against Argentine law at the time he did it?

Legality is irrelevant to morality, of course; but it's a bad day when people can be processed through the legal system for acts that were legal at the time they were committed.

[Lackadaisical2]

Apparently there was a reopening of the case in 2005 after the government found that the Catholic Church was involved in some of the disappereances.

ah, but were these Disappearances due to foul play or did the church 'smuggle' them out with new Identities?

*prays it's the latter.*

I read what was in wiki, it seems that there was involvement in a few cases(one of which has no concrete evidence), however beyond that it doesn't mention anything. So I'm not sure what you're referring to here Nanatsu. So what we have is one person who was in the Catholic church (? the article just says he was a chaplain, so I guess we'll assume hes a priest) does not make for the involvement of an entire organization.

This.

I've read that now too (for some reason it wouldn't post for a long time, so my message was delayed). I touched on both points in my original post. The cardinal was only "accused" they don't say by who, but presumably nothing can be proven, or else it would have been by now. Secondly, the only confirmed case was just one priest(?), and not even in a high position... in Argentina, where I'm guessing most people are catholic, thats an extremely small number of priests.

[Glorious Freedonia]

What sort of people were murdered. The pilot apparently bragged about all of the radical leftists he helped kill. Although the world could use a lot less radical extremists of all sorts, I suspect that not anywhere close to half of 30,000 dead folks were truly radical extremists.

So often in places where dictators rule the roost, the prisoners are often people that were not radical. Often they are people that dared to express legitimate reasonable complaints or were the victims of somebody in power "settling the score" with somebody.

This is what truly sad. This pilot thought he was a hero in the crusade against leftwing nutjobs. Really, he probably murdered people that legitimately complained about police corruption and the corrupt cops had them murdered and probably tortured them first as well. The only good thing is that these folks were drugged. Hopefully they were unconscious so they did not suffer.

I wonder if even half of the people he killed were commies or perverts or some other type of radical leftist. I hope that this pilot is exposed to the truth. It is one thing to rot in a Brazillian hellhole prison thinking that you are some kind of a martyr. It is another thing entirely to realise that you kinda deserve it.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

Apparently there was a reopening of the case in 2005 after the government found that the Catholic Church was involved in some of the disappereances.

ah, but were these Disappearances due to foul play or did the church 'smuggle' them out with new Identities?

*prays it's the latter.*

I read what was in wiki, it seems that there was involvement in a few cases(one of which has no concrete evidence), however beyond that it doesn't mention anything. So I'm not sure what you're referring to here Nanatsu. So what we have is one person who was in the Catholic church (? the article just says he was a chaplain, so I guess we'll assume hes a priest) does not make for the involvement of an entire organization.

This.

I've read that now too (for some reason it wouldn't post for a long time, so my message was delayed). I touched on both points in my original post. The cardinal was only "accused" they don't say by who, but presumably nothing can be proven, or else it would have been by now. Secondly, the only confirmed case was just one priest(?), and not even in a high position... in Argentina, where I'm guessing most people are catholic, thats an extremely small number of priests.

A priest who, under false pretense, used the sacrament of Confession to force people confess. That's actually a violation of Catholic doctrine.

[Glorious Freedonia]

The allegations are horrible, and if it can be proven he was involved, he should be punished to the fullest extent of the law.

Was what he specifically did against Argentine law at the time he did it?

Legality is irrelevant to morality, of course; but it's a bad day when people can be processed through the legal system for acts that were legal at the time they were committed.

Nobody can legally torture or kill political prisoners, regardless of what laws are passed in some dictator's jurisdiction. That is the lesson of the Nuremberg trials.

[The Alma Mater]

The allegations are horrible, and if it can be proven he was involved, he should be punished to the fullest extent of the law.

Was what he specifically did against Argentine law at the time he did it?

Legality is irrelevant to morality, of course; but it's a bad day when people can be processed through the legal system for acts that were legal at the time they were committed.

Nobody can legally torture or kill political prisoners, regardless of what laws are passed in some dictator's jurisdiction. That is the lesson of the Nuremberg trials.

Nobody except the US government ?

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

The allegations are horrible, and if it can be proven he was involved, he should be punished to the fullest extent of the law.

Was what he specifically did against Argentine law at the time he did it?

Legality is irrelevant to morality, of course; but it's a bad day when people can be processed through the legal system for acts that were legal at the time they were committed.

Nobody can legally torture or kill political prisoners, regardless of what laws are passed in some dictator's jurisdiction. That is the lesson of the Nuremberg trials.

Nobody except the US government ?

Wrong. Not even the US can. That's the main reason a group in Europe has decided to bring charges against the Bush administration, for crimes against prisoners in Guantanamo and for both Iraq and Afghanistan.

[Bluth Corporation]

The allegations are horrible, and if it can be proven he was involved, he should be punished to the fullest extent of the law.

Was what he specifically did against Argentine law at the time he did it?

Legality is irrelevant to morality, of course; but it's a bad day when people can be processed through the legal system for acts that were legal at the time they were committed.

Nobody can legally torture or kill political prisoners, regardless of what laws are passed in some dictator's jurisdiction. That is the lesson of the Nuremberg trials.

The Nuremberg trials got it wrong.

The Nuremberg trials are an example of an understandable and perfectly justified emotional desire for revenge getting in the way of every basic fundamental principle of justice.

It is absolutely unacceptable inflict judicial punishment upon someone for an act that was legal at the time it was committed. The potential consequences are just too dire.

[Glorious Freedonia]

The allegations are horrible, and if it can be proven he was involved, he should be punished to the fullest extent of the law.

Was what he specifically did against Argentine law at the time he did it?

Legality is irrelevant to morality, of course; but it's a bad day when people can be processed through the legal system for acts that were legal at the time they were committed.

Nobody can legally torture or kill political prisoners, regardless of what laws are passed in some dictator's jurisdiction. That is the lesson of the Nuremberg trials.

Nobody except the US government ?

I do not want to do to much of a thread drift here but it is even more true for the US government. The US is supposed to set the example for the world to follow on matters of liberty. We are the last ones who should be allowed to do this sort of thing.

[Lackadaisical2]

Apparently there was a reopening of the case in 2005 after the government found that the Catholic Church was involved in some of the disappereances.

ah, but were these Disappearances due to foul play or did the church 'smuggle' them out with new Identities?

*prays it's the latter.*

I read what was in wiki, it seems that there was involvement in a few cases(one of which has no concrete evidence), however beyond that it doesn't mention anything. So I'm not sure what you're referring to here Nanatsu. So what we have is one person who was in the Catholic church (? the article just says he was a chaplain, so I guess we'll assume hes a priest) does not make for the involvement of an entire organization.

This.

I've read that now too (for some reason it wouldn't post for a long time, so my message was delayed). I touched on both points in my original post. The cardinal was only "accused" they don't say by who, but presumably nothing can be proven, or else it would have been by now. Secondly, the only confirmed case was just one priest(?), and not even in a high position... in Argentina, where I'm guessing most people are catholic, thats an extremely small number of priests.

A priest who, under false pretense, used the sacrament of Confession to force people confess. That's actually a violation of Catholic doctrine.

OK, I never said the guy was anything but worthless shit. I just don't think the one person(of little rank mind you) justifies smearing the entire Church.

[Glorious Freedonia]

[/quote]

The Nuremberg trials got it wrong.

The Nuremberg trials are an example of an understandable and perfectly justified emotional desire for revenge getting in the way of every basic fundamental principle of justice.

It is absolutely unacceptable inflict judicial punishment upon someone for an act that was legal at the time it was committed. The potential consequences are just too dire.[/quote]

I disagree. If someone violates human rights, commits genocide, and also commits war crimes, there is no excuse. There is no defense by being able to say that "I was just following the orders of a", in NS terms, "psychotic dictator".

[Vault 10]

The Nuremberg trials are an example of an understandable and perfectly justified emotional desire for revenge getting in the way of every basic fundamental principle of justice.
It is absolutely unacceptable inflict judicial punishment upon someone for an act that was legal at the time it was committed. The potential consequences are just too dire.

Actually, the vast majority of Nazi military escaped unscathed. Only a very small number of people, those who were masterminding the war, or had the choice, or were involved in particularly notable roles, were punished.

[Glorious Freedonia]

So who were the people that were killed? Were these the people that are referred to as something along the lines of "Those who Disappeared"? I am not a South American historian and much like Sub Saharan and East Africa it just seems to be a place where there has been a whole lot of savagery. One dictator right after another and lots of killing and torture and oppression. Were these people really leftist nutjob radicals or were they anybody who somehow pissed off a secret policeman?

[Bluth Corporation]

I disagree. If someone violates human rights, commits genocide, and also commits war crimes, there is no excuse. There is no defense by being able to say that "I was just following the orders of a", in NS terms, "psychotic dictator".

History is written by the victors.

So are charges of war crimes.

Even when such charges are justified (as they often are), the potential for politicization, arbitrary standards, lack of a fair trial, etc. that accompanies war crimes trials to a much greater degree than it does mundane criminal cases seems to mean that the injunction against applying laws retroactively (and, in fact, all protections afforded the accused) should be adhered to even more stringently in the case of allegations of war crimes than in everyday criminal trials.