Pilot for Dutch low cost carrier arrested: see why!

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

Apparently there was a reopening of the case in 2005 after the government found that the Catholic Church was involved in some of the disappereances.

Don't blame the Catholic Church.

Read this before jumping. The Catholic Church was aware too of the genocide being carried out by Hitler. Same as in this case.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dirty_War# ... lic_Church

[The Alma Mater]

The allegations are horrible, and if it can be proven he was involved, he should be punished to the fullest extent of the law. However, at the moment, they are just allegations, no?

According to the news, the man had never made a secret of his deeds - being proud of having exterminated loads of what he called "extreme left wing terrorists".

Which makes one wonder why Transavia coworkers never went to the police.

Source articles (In Dutch, hopefully babelfish can help):
http://www.ad.nl/ad/nl/1012/Binnenland/ ... sten.dhtml
http://www.ad.nl/ad/nl/1012/Binnenland/ ... hten.dhtml

The AD tends to be a decent newspaper,

[Douchebaggerry]

I mean, he could have at least not drugged them, so they could enjoy their first - and last - skydive.

I'm a terrible person.

Some of them got dropped over the sea originally, but then the odd one or 2 survived and drifted back to shore.

[Vault 10]

Apparently so. Just allegations. At least the airline he was working for since 1988 had no reasons to doubt this pilot. But if the allegations are proven to be true... I don't understand the human being who could do such a thing...

How is it any different from Paul Tibbets dropping a nuclear bomb on Hiroshima?


edit: Or, for that matter, any strategic bomber pilot throughout the history?

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

Apparently so. Just allegations. At least the airline he was working for since 1988 had no reasons to doubt this pilot. But if the allegations are proven to be true... I don't understand the human being who could do such a thing...

How is it any different from Paul Tibbets dropping a nuclear bomb on Hiroshima?


edit: Or, for that matter, any strategic bomber pilot throughout the history?

Not making any reference to that. I just don't understand the mind that can do what this pilot did.

[Vault 10]

Not making any reference to that. I just don't understand the mind that can do what this pilot did.

Well, why, it's no different from dropping a load of bombs on the heads of unsuspecting civilians.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

Not making any reference to that. I just don't understand the mind that can do what this pilot did.

Well, why, it's no different from dropping a load of bombs on the heads of unsuspecting civilians.

I don't understand that mind either. But I'm trying to merely stay on the topic at hand, Vault.

[The Alma Mater]

Not making any reference to that. I just don't understand the mind that can do what this pilot did.

They guy thought - and thinks - he was killing worthless terrorist scum. Criminal filth.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

Not making any reference to that. I just don't understand the mind that can do what this pilot did.

They guy thought - and thinks - he was killing worthless terrorist scum. Criminal filth.

Which just goes to show just how sad war really is. No side wins.

[The Alma Mater]

Not making any reference to that. I just don't understand the mind that can do what this pilot did.

They guy thought - and thinks - he was killing worthless terrorist scum. Criminal filth.

Which just goes to show just how sad war really is. No side wins.

True. But one has to wonder if we would be equally horrified if the guys he helped throw out the plane had been Al Queda terrorists.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

Not making any reference to that. I just don't understand the mind that can do what this pilot did.

They guy thought - and thinks - he was killing worthless terrorist scum. Criminal filth.

Which just goes to show just how sad war really is. No side wins.

True. But one has to wonder if we would be equally horrified if the guys he helped throw out the plane had been Al Queda terrorists.

I think I would. It's the loss of life anyway. And the loss of life in a very horrible way.

[Fson]

Apparently there was a reopening of the case in 2005 after the government found that the Catholic Church was involved in some of the disappereances.

Don't blame the Catholic Church.

The catholic church is usually involved in everything, because it is such a big institution..

[Vault 10]

I think I would. It's the loss of life anyway. And the loss of life in a very horrible way.

Why? Seems like a very fast and clean way of loss of life. Compared to the agony and smoke on an electric chair, for instance.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

I think I would. It's the loss of life anyway. And the loss of life in a very horrible way.

Why? Seems like a very fast and clean way of loss of life. Compared to the agony and smoke on an electric chair, for instance.

Vault, I will not justify any way, be it the cleanest in the world, of killing another human being, even if this person is a terrorist.

[Cybach]

Apparently there was a reopening of the case in 2005 after the government found that the Catholic Church was involved in some of the disappereances.

Don't blame the Catholic Church.

Read this before jumping. The Catholic Church was aware too of the genocide being carried out by Hitler. Same as in this case.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dirty_War# ... lic_Church

And received various awards and lots of lauding from various Jewish groups, as well as a special recognition from the State of Israel for the lengths the Catholic Church went to save Jews in Europe at a time when no one else did. Neither the US, nor Britain, nor any other organization. The World Jewish Congress, American Jewish community, Chief Rabbis of Jerusalem, Rome and Budapest, Golda Meir and many other prominent Jewish representatives praised Pius for his relief efforts and public denunciation of racial persecution. On 17 September 2009, Pave the Way Foundation nominated Pius XII to be listed as Righteous Among the Nations at Yad Veshem Holocaust Memorial. The foundation's efforts produced 3,000 new original documents and photos on the life of Pius XII and his work to save Jews during World War II.


In 1940 Pius asked members of the clergy, on Vatican letterhead, to do whatever they could on behalf of interned Jews. In his Christmas address of 1942, Pius XII appealed to the world to take a long, hard look at "the ruins of a social order which has given such tragic proof of its ineptitude" and to vow never to let such a calamity as National Socialism afflict mankind again. In June 1942 Pius personally protested against the mass deportations of Jews from France, ordering the papal nuncio to protest to Marshal Pétain against "the inhuman arrests and deportations of Jews".

In 1943, plans were allegedly formulated by Hitler to occupy the Vatican and arrest Pius and the cardinals of the Roman Curia. According to Rev. Peter Gumpel, a historian in charge of Pius' canonization process, the Pope told leading bishops that should he be arrested by Nazi forces, his resignation would take immediate effect and that the Holy See would move to another country, specifically Portugal, where the College of Cardinals would elect a new pope.Some historians argue that the reason Hitler wanted to capture the Pope was because he was concerned Pius would continue speaking against the way the Nazis treated the Jews. In the spring of 1943 Pirro Scavizzi, an Italian priest, told Pius that the murder of the Jews was "now total", even the elderly and infants were being destroyed "without mercy". Pius is reported to have broken down and wept uncontrollably. In an October 1943 diary by Adolf Eichmann, it says that the Church "was vigorously protesting the arrest of Jews of Italian citizenship, requesting that such actions be interrupted immediately throughout Rome and its surroundings. To the contrary, the Pope would denounce it publicly." He adds that "the objections given and the excessive delay in the steps necessary to complete the implementation of the operation, resulted in a great part of Italian Jews being able to hide and escape capture."

In August 2006, extracts from the 60-year-old diary of a nun of the Convent of Santi Quattro Coronati were published in the Italian press, stating that Pope Pius XII ordered Rome's convents and monasteries to hide Jews during the Second World War.

When Pius died both Moshe Sharett and Golda Meir sent telegrams stating that when darkness reigned over Europe, he was one of the few who raised his voice in protest.





http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Pius_ ... _Holocaust

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Pius_ ... _Holocaust



So yeah. The whole Catholics be bad bigotry that got big in the US during the 50s is based on rather a lot of bullshit. How about sticking to some facts. Show me another organization in Europe that risked as much as the Roman Catholic Church in saving Jews in Europe. As well as did it so effectively. The Roman Catholic Church saved upwards of tens of thousands of Jews. Which other organization had the brass to go up against the Nazis in such an affront during their strongest days? Please do tell.

The Roman Catholic Church may do many things wrong, it may not be perfect. It might even when you balance all things out have more bad than good sides. However one thing you can state of them, they certainly did a hell of a lot more for the poor Jews during the holocaust than anyone else. Risking it's own existence to save the people who were still held in contempt for the death of Jesus Christ (this was pre-Vatican II mind you). And I give props where they are do. The Roman Catholic Church for one has my respect for it's brave role in the holocaust, considering the inept attitude of everyone else in Europe at the time.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

Apparently there was a reopening of the case in 2005 after the government found that the Catholic Church was involved in some of the disappereances.

Don't blame the Catholic Church.

Read this before jumping. The Catholic Church was aware too of the genocide being carried out by Hitler. Same as in this case.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dirty_War# ... lic_Church

And received various awards and lots of lauding from various Jewish groups, as well as a special recognition from the State of Israel for the lengths the Catholic Church went to save Jews in Europe at a time when no one else did. Neither the US, nor Britain, nor any other organization. The World Jewish Congress, American Jewish community, Chief Rabbis of Jerusalem, Rome and Budapest, Golda Meir and many other prominent Jewish representatives praised Pius for his relief efforts and public denunciation of racial persecution. On 17 September 2009, Pave the Way Foundation nominated Pius XII to be listed as Righteous Among the Nations at Yad Veshem Holocaust Memorial. The foundation's efforts produced 3,000 new original documents and photos on the life of Pius XII and his work to save Jews during World War II.


In 1940 Pius asked members of the clergy, on Vatican letterhead, to do whatever they could on behalf of interned Jews. In his Christmas address of 1942, Pius XII appealed to the world to take a long, hard look at "the ruins of a social order which has given such tragic proof of its ineptitude" and to vow never to let such a calamity as National Socialism afflict mankind again. In June 1942 Pius personally protested against the mass deportations of Jews from France, ordering the papal nuncio to protest to Marshal Pétain against "the inhuman arrests and deportations of Jews".

In 1943, plans were allegedly formulated by Hitler to occupy the Vatican and arrest Pius and the cardinals of the Roman Curia. According to Rev. Peter Gumpel, a historian in charge of Pius' canonization process, the Pope told leading bishops that should he be arrested by Nazi forces, his resignation would take immediate effect and that the Holy See would move to another country, specifically Portugal, where the College of Cardinals would elect a new pope.Some historians argue that the reason Hitler wanted to capture the Pope was because he was concerned Pius would continue speaking against the way the Nazis treated the Jews. In the spring of 1943 Pirro Scavizzi, an Italian priest, told Pius that the murder of the Jews was "now total", even the elderly and infants were being destroyed "without mercy". Pius is reported to have broken down and wept uncontrollably. In an October 1943 diary by Adolf Eichmann, it says that the Church "was vigorously protesting the arrest of Jews of Italian citizenship, requesting that such actions be interrupted immediately throughout Rome and its surroundings. To the contrary, the Pope would denounce it publicly." He adds that "the objections given and the excessive delay in the steps necessary to complete the implementation of the operation, resulted in a great part of Italian Jews being able to hide and escape capture."

In August 2006, extracts from the 60-year-old diary of a nun of the Convent of Santi Quattro Coronati were published in the Italian press, stating that Pope Pius XII ordered Rome's convents and monasteries to hide Jews during the Second World War.

When Pius died both Moshe Sharett and Golda Meir sent telegrams stating that when darkness reigned over Europe, he was one of the few who raised his voice in protest.





http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Pius_ ... _Holocaust

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Pius_ ... _Holocaust



So yeah. The whole Catholics be bad bigotry that got big in the US during the 50s is based on rather a lot of bullshit. How about sticking to some facts. Show me another organization in Europe that risked as much as the Roman Catholic Church in saving Jews in Europe. As well as did it so effectively. The Roman Catholic Church saved upwards of tens of thousands of Jews. Which other organization had the brass to go up against the Nazis in such an affront during their strongest days? Please do tell.

The Roman Catholic Church may do many things wrong, it may not be perfect. It might even when you balance all things out have more bad than good sides. However one thing you can state of them, they certainly did a hell of a lot more for the poor Jews during the holocaust than anyone else. Risking it's own existence to save the people who were still held in contempt for the death of Jesus Christ (this was pre-Vatican II mind you). And I give props where they are do. The Roman Catholic Church for one has my respect for it's brave role in the holocaust, considering the inept attitude of everyone else in Europe at the time.

The Dirty War is NOT one of those cases. Read the link, once again.

[JuNii]

Apparently there was a reopening of the case in 2005 after the government found that the Catholic Church was involved in some of the disappereances.

ah, but were these Disappearances due to foul play or did the church 'smuggle' them out with new Identities?

*prays it's the latter.*

[JuNii]

Not making any reference to that. I just don't understand the mind that can do what this pilot did.

They guy thought - and thinks - he was killing worthless terrorist scum. Criminal filth.

Which just goes to show just how sad war really is. No side wins.

True. But one has to wonder if we would be equally horrified if the guys he helped throw out the plane had been Al Queda terrorists.

yes, just as horrible.

[Treznor]

Apparently so. Just allegations. At least the airline he was working for since 1988 had no reasons to doubt this pilot. But if the allegations are proven to be true... I don't understand the human being who could do such a thing...

How is it any different from Paul Tibbets dropping a nuclear bomb on Hiroshima?


edit: Or, for that matter, any strategic bomber pilot throughout the history?

The purpose of bombing is to publicly demonstrate to the enemy that you have the capability to destroy his ability to make war. Hiroshima in particular was a demonstration to the Japanese people as well as their emperor that the US had military nuclear capability, and was justly controversial from the day it happened to today.

This was an execution of political and military prisoners, plain and simple. It was performed in secrecy in such a way that it couldn't be directly linked to the people doing it. All anyone knew is that they disappeared without a trace.

There's a reason there's a specific category for "war crimes" to separate military actions from criminal behavior. This refers to the latter. Just because some military dictator claims war as a justification doesn't magically absolve all immoral behavior.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

Apparently there was a reopening of the case in 2005 after the government found that the Catholic Church was involved in some of the disappereances.

ah, but were these Disappearances due to foul play or did the church 'smuggle' them out with new Identities?

*prays it's the latter.*

The Church in Argentina has been accused, mainly cardinal Jorge Bergoglio, of conspiring to kidnap 2 Jesuit priests. The cardinal was the superior figure in the Society of Jesus of Argentina during 1976 and had asked the two priests to leave their pastoral work following conflict within the Society over how to respond to the new military dictatorship, with some priests advocating a violent overthrow.

The former chaplain of the Buenos Aires Province Police while it was under the command of General Ramón Camps, Christian von Wernich, was first accused of collaborating in the torture of political prisoners during the Trial of the Juntas in 1985. A judge ordered again his arrest in 2003, and he was indicted on charges of co-authorship of homicide, illegal restraints and acts of torture (including the kidnapping of Jacobo Timerman, the editor of La Opinión). Surviving victims declared that von Wernich questioned them under torture, subjected them to fake executions, and, under the guise of counseling, urged them to confess. On 9 October 2007, the court found him guilty of complicity in seven homicides, 42 kidnappings, and 32 instances of torture, and sentenced him to life imprisonment.

[Wilgrove]

How bad is it, when my first thought was, What type/model aircraft did they use?

[Galloism]

How bad is it, when my first thought was, What type/model aircraft did they use?

...

I admit nothing.

[Wilgrove]

How bad is it, when my first thought was, What type/model aircraft did they use?

...

I admit nothing.

Well, I was just thinking about how high up they were when they dumped the bodies, and if they used a non-pressurized aircraft.

I mean before DB Cooper, Boeing 727s had those hatch at the rear of the aircraft.

[JuNii]

Apparently there was a reopening of the case in 2005 after the government found that the Catholic Church was involved in some of the disappereances.

ah, but were these Disappearances due to foul play or did the church 'smuggle' them out with new Identities?

*prays it's the latter.*

The Church in Argentina has been accused, mainly cardinal Jorge Bergoglio, of conspiring to kidnap 2 Jesuit priests. The cardinal was the superior figure in the Society of Jesus of Argentina during 1976 and had asked the two priests to leave their pastoral work following conflict within the Society over how to respond to the new military dictatorship, with some priests advocating a violent overthrow.

the Church in Argentina =|= Catholic Church as a whole.

but even then...

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

How bad is it, when my first thought was, What type/model aircraft did they use?

...

I admit nothing.

I'm going to slap the both of you, you know.