Is abortion right? (What's your view on abortion?)

[Ifreann]

Nobody in their right mind would deny people the right to kill.

Ah, but if they're dead they're not in their right mind. So they might well deny people their right to kill.



... I"m just trying to see this issue from the point of view of a dead fetus. Thought experiment like.

I don't think a dead foetus could "see" any issue, being both dead and a foetus.

[A High Dark Place]

Ah, but if they're dead they're not in their right mind. So they might well deny people their right to kill.



... I"m just trying to see this issue from the point of view of a dead fetus. Thought experiment like.

I don't think a dead foetus could "see" any issue, being both dead and a foetus.

It's hard isn't it?

Firstly, imagine that you're dead. You can't think at all: you have no memories and no method of though. Resist the urge to see yourself through the eyes of others ... don't think about what your friends or family are thinking about you now you're dead. Try not to think at all.

Have you got that? Keep trying until you get it.

Now ... imagine that you had never thought anything ever in the past. Try to imagine what it is to not imagine anything, and then imagine that everything which could ever have enabled you to imagine what you are imagining now had never existed.

It's very important that you do this, or you will never properly understand Abortion.

[The Cummunist State]

I don't think a dead foetus could "see" any issue, being both dead and a foetus.

It's hard isn't it?

Firstly, imagine that you're dead. You can't think at all: you have no memories and no method of though. Resist the urge to see yourself through the eyes of others ... don't think about what your friends or family are thinking about you now you're dead. Try not to think at all.

Have you got that? Keep trying until you get it.

Now ... imagine that you had never thought anything ever in the past. Try to imagine what it is to not imagine anything, and then imagine that everything which could ever have enabled you to imagine what you are imagining now had never existed.

It's very important that you do this, or you will never properly understand Abortion.

Yeah. You never existed. You lose nothing. You're not even there to not think. Just gone. What are you getting at?

[A High Dark Place]

It's hard isn't it?

Firstly, imagine that you're dead. You can't think at all: you have no memories and no method of though. Resist the urge to see yourself through the eyes of others ... don't think about what your friends or family are thinking about you now you're dead. Try not to think at all.

Have you got that? Keep trying until you get it.

Now ... imagine that you had never thought anything ever in the past. Try to imagine what it is to not imagine anything, and then imagine that everything which could ever have enabled you to imagine what you are imagining now had never existed.

It's very important that you do this, or you will never properly understand Abortion.

Yeah. You never existed. You lose nothing. You're not even there to not think. Just gone. What are you getting at?

No, you're not getting it. You're not "gone". You'd have to have been in order to later be gone.

Think, damn you dead fetus THINK!

[Ubekebekbekestanstan]

Yeah. You never existed. You lose nothing. You're not even there to not think. Just gone. What are you getting at?

No, you're not getting it. You're not "gone". You'd have to have been in order to later be gone.

Think, damn you dead fetus THINK!

You never "were". I don't think that anything is wrong with that. There are plenty of people that never were.

[The Cummunist State]

Yeah. You never existed. You lose nothing. You're not even there to not think. Just gone. What are you getting at?

No, you're not getting it. You're not "gone". You'd have to have been in order to later be gone.

Think, damn you dead fetus THINK!

I guess you ignored the first part of my post. I.E. You never existed.

[A High Dark Place]

Yep, what I wrote was rather silly. I think it's time for me to vanish into the darkness. With a hot-water bottle for my poor aching liver. y'all

[Hallistar]

Yeah. You never existed. You lose nothing. You're not even there to not think. Just gone. What are you getting at?

No, you're not getting it. You're not "gone". You'd have to have been in order to later be gone.

Think, damn you dead fetus THINK!

What are you getting at? Yes, a fetus isn't conscious and does not know anything about the universe. The fetus simply represents a possibility, just like all the other unfertilized eggs in the mother's wombs that weren't conceived. Possibilities don't imperatively have to turn into reality, the universe isn't going to end, and the fetus loses nothing.

[Oppressorion]

For the record, I have been reading the posts after mine. They're...interesting. I've been...re-examining my priorities and drawing new conclusions.

Insulting me as a person rather than my arguments are still not OK.

[Rick Rollin]

All the abortion threads on NSG clearly show that what NS needs is perspective.

I don't think a dead foetus could "see" any issue, being both dead and a foetus.

It's hard isn't it?

Firstly, imagine that you're dead. You can't think at all: you have no memories and no method of though. Resist the urge to see yourself through the eyes of others ... don't think about what your friends or family are thinking about you now you're dead. Try not to think at all.

Have you got that? Keep trying until you get it.

Now ... imagine that you had never thought anything ever in the past. Try to imagine what it is to not imagine anything, and then imagine that everything which could ever have enabled you to imagine what you are imagining now had never existed.

It's very important that you do this, or you will never properly understand Abortion.

What everyone (who disagrees with you) sees:

1. Once you are dead, your former opinion doesn't matter.
2. You don't have a working brain until your head goes through a pussy.

Yeah. You never existed. You lose nothing. You're not even there to not think. Just gone. What are you getting at?

No, you're not getting it. You're not "gone". You'd have to have been in order to later be gone.

Think, damn you dead fetus THINK!

No, you're not getting it. You're not "gone". You'd have to have been in order to later be gone.

Think, damn you dead fetus THINK!

I guess you ignored the first part of my post. I.E. You never existed.

What everyone (who disagrees with you) sees:

A brain immediately pops into your head once you are born.

[The Cummunist State]

All the abortion threads on NSG clearly show that what NS needs is perspective.

It's hard isn't it?

Firstly, imagine that you're dead. You can't think at all: you have no memories and no method of though. Resist the urge to see yourself through the eyes of others ... don't think about what your friends or family are thinking about you now you're dead. Try not to think at all.

Have you got that? Keep trying until you get it.

Now ... imagine that you had never thought anything ever in the past. Try to imagine what it is to not imagine anything, and then imagine that everything which could ever have enabled you to imagine what you are imagining now had never existed.

It's very important that you do this, or you will never properly understand Abortion.

What everyone (who disagrees with you) sees:

1. Once you are dead, your former opinion doesn't matter.
2. You don't have a working brain until your head goes through a pussy.

No, you're not getting it. You're not "gone". You'd have to have been in order to later be gone.

Think, damn you dead fetus THINK!

I guess you ignored the first part of my post. I.E. You never existed.

What everyone (who disagrees with you) sees:

A brain immediately pops into your head once you are born.

You're not even trying are you?

[Rick Rollin]

All the abortion threads on NSG clearly show that what NS needs is perspective.

What everyone (who disagrees with you) sees:



What everyone (who disagrees with you) sees:

You're not even trying are you?

Trying what?

Oh wait. You think I'm a troll don't you? Well, at least you didn't mistake me for a anti-choicer.

But seriously, I am NOT trolling, and you should know that.

[Arkinesia]

Call me cold hearted, but I find the argument that it is immoral to abort to be fucking absurd. A human being has a right to decide how to handle a parasite that is functioning within their own body. And yes, a fetus is a parasite, it has all the characteristics of a parasite. A parasite is an organism that lives in or on another organism, and benefits by deriving nutrients from the host.

You're missing one. A non-human external source from which the parasite breeds.

Nice try, though, trying to rewrite biology books.

When the child is actually born, there you go then I am against the murder of anything that has already come out of the womb. When we celebrate somebodies birthday, we don't base it off the moment they were conceived, no we base it off of the day, hour, minute that they came out of their mothers womb and became relatively self sustaining (in the sense they do not require necessary fluids from mother for breathing, organ functions, etc. Their bodies handle it themselves).

So what about babies that are existing in the womb but are viable outside of it? Are you suggesting we enforce C-sections for all women past the 7th month of pregnancy?

Here's an absolutely revolutionary, insane, radical concept for anybody who is against abortion...If you don't like abortions, don't fucking get one. But don't disable other people who want or actually need one from getting it simply because you don't like it. That's called being a greedy prick, and nobody likes a greedy prick.

/rant

Need one? Sweetie, 95% of US abortions are because the women “don't want the baby.” They don't need an abortion. They want one. Needing an abortion are women who would have severe health complications from pregnancy or would die in childbirth. Women who can't afford having a kid but engaged in sexual activity anyway are quite frankly not the brightest crayons in the cookie jar to begin with. We're already protecting the foolish through legislation enough, shouldn't we be stopping the same with the creation of human life?

[Rick Rollin]

An acorn isn't a tree, and a fetus is not a human

What everyone (who disagrees with you sees):

*special pleading*

If someone stole a kidney from you, would you be legally entitled to rip it out of their body (killing them in the process) in order to get it back? Because that's more analogous to abortion than organ and blood donations.

I wasn't making an analogy with abortion, I was making one with forcing women to remain pregnant.

---

It's not just being "not fully functioning", an embryo have **nothing** of a human personality. An adult dog or cat or pig is much closer to having (but still very far) a personhood than an embryo is. Personhood is the consequence of a very complicated brain architecture, and embryos don't have that. A human baby, even if not fully functional, has the brain architecture that can hold personhood and consciousness, not fully wired, but the architecture is there, so we can suspect it has a form of consciousness and personhood already, and must protect it. But that just doesn't hold in an embryo.

Of course, at the end of the day the personhood or otherwise of embryos or foetuses doesn't matter.

What everyone (who disagrees with you) sees:

WAH! IT'S ALL ABOUT ME! NOT THE BABY, ME!

I actually believe this.

It's too bad that millions are aborted each year and only a couple hundred thousand are adopted. Care to explain why you want to make the rest of them suffer while only a few get adopted. Can you stand to see a child's eyes filled with hope, only to face rejection?

You would prefer them all killed?

Please keep these:

Oh, I forgot, you don't care about them once they are born. You don't care if they die immediately after birth or are abused. All you care about is your nonsense belief that you're doing the right thing.

remarks about me to yourself.

WE(WDWY)S:

*assuming the answer*!

No, because in abortion (at least for early abortion, it's less clear for late abortion) there is no consciousness, no person, to destroy. An embryo doesn't have the brain structures to hold a personhood, and is therefore not a person.

Agreed. And I don't know why some mention Adoption as a panacea, there isn't enough adoptive families to go around if all those fetuses became babies..

What about teh gheys?

Wait no, 'family values'.

I disagree. At worst, the mother has to be pregnant for 9 months and then never has to think about it again. The alternative is destroying years of life that the (various terms depending on age at the time) could have lived - I object to it for the same reason that I imagine you would killing a child that had been born. To me, it doesn't matter where it is or how old it is, it's still life.

At WORST?! Do you assume all mothers are cold hearted fuckers who will just forget they had a child that is possibly being abused in a orphanage right now because some moralistic dictator said that "No, you can't have control of your own body."? That's sick.

He probably thinks that anyone who has an abortion is a cruel bastard.

...Which I will argue.

This argument is absurd, and is equivalent to "But you CAN'T make slavery illegal! If you don't, all the slavers will be unemployed!" While I sympathise with the victim's plight, choosing to be subject to the coathanger treatment certainly does not earn it.

I am not one of those people, and will happily endorse a budget increase in exchange for saving the lives of unborn babies.

If only we had a number of couples in the country who wanted, but couldn't have children for some reason and would happily give one a loving home. If only only there were some way of - of tranferring a child directly after birth to this loving family, so that it is legally theirs. If only...

Give birth, then give it up for adoption.

Fine by me, totally agree in this case.

I'm not religious, and oppose abortion on ethical grounds. I have this startling belief that "Right to Choose" does not mean "Right to Kill"

I don't like it. No matter how terribly the mother is affected, sacrificing human life is not the way to go.

Your argument is the only absurd one. Comparing slavers and back alley abortionists is absurd. You're also pretty disgusting that you want to force a woman to go through 9 months of pain of remembering her rapist.

WE(WDWY)S:

1. *assuming the answer*!
2. All sex is rape.

[Rick Rollin]

Call me cold hearted, but I find the argument that it is immoral to abort to be fucking absurd. A human being has a right to decide how to handle a parasite that is functioning within their own body. And yes, a fetus is a parasite, it has all the characteristics of a parasite. A parasite is an organism that lives in or on another organism, and benefits by deriving nutrients from the host.

You're missing one. A non-human external source from which the parasite breeds.

Nice try, though, trying to rewrite biology books.

When the child is actually born, there you go then I am against the murder of anything that has already come out of the womb. When we celebrate somebodies birthday, we don't base it off the moment they were conceived, no we base it off of the day, hour, minute that they came out of their mothers womb and became relatively self sustaining (in the sense they do not require necessary fluids from mother for breathing, organ functions, etc. Their bodies handle it themselves).

So what about babies that are existing in the womb but are viable outside of it? Are you suggesting we enforce C-sections for all women past the 7th month of pregnancy?

Here's an absolutely revolutionary, insane, radical concept for anybody who is against abortion...If you don't like abortions, don't fucking get one. But don't disable other people who want or actually need one from getting it simply because you don't like it. That's called being a greedy prick, and nobody likes a greedy prick.

/rant

Need one? Sweetie, 95% of US abortions are because the women “don't want the baby.” They don't need an abortion. They want one. Needing an abortion are women who would have severe health complications from pregnancy or would die in childbirth. Women who can't afford having a kid but engaged in sexual activity anyway are quite frankly not the brightest crayons in the cookie jar to begin with. We're already protecting the foolish through legislation enough, shouldn't we be stopping the same with the creation of human life?

You seem think this is a debate over how to punish sluts.

[Norstal]

Need one? Sweetie, 95% of US abortions are because the women “don't want the baby.” They don't need an abortion. They want one. Needing an abortion are women who would have severe health complications from pregnancy or would die in childbirth. Women who can't afford having a kid but engaged in sexual activity anyway are quite frankly not the brightest crayons in the cookie jar to begin with. We're already protecting the foolish through legislation enough, shouldn't we be stopping the same with the creation of human life?

No. Don't care.

You know that we can just shoot down these kind of arguments with apathy, right?

[Arkinesia]

You seem think this is a debate over how to punish sluts.

I do distinguish between promiscuous sexual behaviors and sheer tomfoolery, unlike crybaby religious conservatives.

[Rick Rollin]

You seem think this is a debate over how to punish sluts.

I do distinguish between promiscuous sexual behaviors and sheer tomfoolery, unlike crybaby religious conservatives.

And the difference matters because?...

[Galloism]

I do distinguish between promiscuous sexual behaviors and sheer tomfoolery, unlike crybaby religious conservatives.

And the difference matters because?...

Because he only allows people to have bodily autonomy if they're acting in a way he approves of?

[The Downward Spiral (Ancient)]

I don't know. On one hand it's killing babies, but on the other it's giving women a choice.

[The Cummunist State]

And the difference matters because?...

Because he only allows people to have bodily autonomy if they're acting in a way he approves of?

I like you the more I see of you.

[The Cummunist State]

I don't know. On one hand it's killing babies, but on the other it's giving women a choice.

Who's killing babies?! No, we're talking about fetuses.

[Galloism]

Because he only allows people to have bodily autonomy if they're acting in a way he approves of?

I like you the more I see of you.

It's a common theme in anti-choice advocates.

[The Downward Spiral (Ancient)]

I don't know. On one hand it's killing babies, but on the other it's giving women a choice.

Who's killing babies?! No, we're talking about fetuses.

Well I mean killing babies I can support, but giving women a choice? Come on now!

[Galloism]

I don't know. On one hand it's killing babies, but on the other it's giving women a choice.

Who's killing babies?! No, we're talking about fetuses.

Ironically, if we WERE to actually outlaw abortion (and restrict all substances that can induce it, and have an oversight force of such strength to make it nearly universally enforceable), the logical result WOULD be more killing of babies, as that would result in more babies born that parents didn't want, in circumstances where the law could not be certain they were actually born.

Infant murder would logically increase.