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Western Moral Superiority?

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Genivaria
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Postby Genivaria » Wed May 02, 2012 1:56 pm

Norstal wrote:
Minnysota wrote:
You're comparing concentration camps to the conventional US prison? What a fair comparison.

At least you can get a free tattoo in U.S prisons.

And access to libraries, and clean water, and a healthy meal.
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Dokuritsu Nippon
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Postby Dokuritsu Nippon » Wed May 02, 2012 1:59 pm

New England and The Maritimes wrote:
Dokuritsu Nippon wrote:
Do they have sufficient power to abolish private ownership of capital?


North Korea certainly hasn't, just like the USSR never did. The private owners changed, but they're still owners. The Party elite still get to do anything they want. Kim Jong Il still had lobster airlifted to his private train in the midst of one of the most utterly destructive famines in human history. No constitution in the world changes the simple fact that North Korea treats its "workers" like insects, or the fact that the majority of people can only get enough food to survive from non-sanctioned private markets.


And I suppose you get all of this "information" from anecdotal accounts of political defectors?

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Minnysota
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Postby Minnysota » Wed May 02, 2012 2:00 pm

Dokuritsu Nippon wrote:
>__<

I have been there, thank you very much. A terrible, terrible place, showing just how absolutely barbaric fascism (capitalism in decay) can be. It actually was a partial epiphany moment, in the face of such unabated evil, that I realized this horrid imperialist system, in all its manifestations, must be opposed at any costs. I actually broke down and cried there, wished I could travel back in time, and slaughter each and ever member of the SS, SA, Nazi Party, everyone. I was an atheist, but I wished in that moment that Christianity was true, just so Hitler could be suffering forever for the great evil he caused. It was only there, facing it, that I realized on more than a mere intellectual level, how evil and detestable the capitalist system is. Even writing now, I'm furious, depressed. So many emotions at once. I've tried to channel them for good.


By supporting the DPRK?
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Minnysota
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Postby Minnysota » Wed May 02, 2012 2:01 pm

Dokuritsu Nippon wrote:
Don't pretend that the workers actually are in control in North Korea.


Of course they are. It's a workers' state.


Damn you for making me piss my pants.
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Ganos Lao
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Postby Ganos Lao » Wed May 02, 2012 2:01 pm

Image

NSG: Where armchair revolutionaries can routinely condemn the system they live under with all the benefits they themselves rely upon by advocating the non-existent merits of a system that's really not that good to begin with.
Last edited by Ganos Lao on Wed May 02, 2012 2:22 pm, edited 5 times in total.



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Dokuritsu Nippon
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Postby Dokuritsu Nippon » Wed May 02, 2012 2:01 pm

Norstal wrote:
Jerusalem and Damascus wrote:
Mmm-hmm.

Now, no government would like the DPRK would have any benefit in making someone a poster-boy to say how lovely they are...

And I guess all those people they kidnapped are doing quite well, too.

Pictures of captured Americans in North Korea, look at how much they're treated well:

Image


It's all in the fingers.


Definitely better than Guantanemo Bay.

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New England and The Maritimes
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Postby New England and The Maritimes » Wed May 02, 2012 2:01 pm

Dokuritsu Nippon wrote:
New England and The Maritimes wrote:
North Korea certainly hasn't, just like the USSR never did. The private owners changed, but they're still owners. The Party elite still get to do anything they want. Kim Jong Il still had lobster airlifted to his private train in the midst of one of the most utterly destructive famines in human history. No constitution in the world changes the simple fact that North Korea treats its "workers" like insects, or the fact that the majority of people can only get enough food to survive from non-sanctioned private markets.


And I suppose you get all of this "information" from anecdotal accounts of political defectors?


And I suppose that any video footage of North Korea or photographic evidence of simple facts like the average height being a full 4 inches shorter than in the South will be dismissed as "capitalist lies."

You pretend to want the facts, but the moment anything contradicts your narrative it becomes propaganda, while anything that confirms the bullshit you've fed yourself is the gospel truth.

Face it, North Korea is a proto-feudalist hellhole where all the capital is concentrated in the hands of the few and everyone else is left to their fate. "Workers' state" my cock and balls.
Last edited by New England and The Maritimes on Wed May 02, 2012 2:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Genivaria
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Postby Genivaria » Wed May 02, 2012 2:02 pm

Minnysota wrote:
Dokuritsu Nippon wrote:
>__<

I have been there, thank you very much. A terrible, terrible place, showing just how absolutely barbaric fascism (capitalism in decay) can be. It actually was a partial epiphany moment, in the face of such unabated evil, that I realized this horrid imperialist system, in all its manifestations, must be opposed at any costs. I actually broke down and cried there, wished I could travel back in time, and slaughter each and ever member of the SS, SA, Nazi Party, everyone. I was an atheist, but I wished in that moment that Christianity was true, just so Hitler could be suffering forever for the great evil he caused. It was only there, facing it, that I realized on more than a mere intellectual level, how evil and detestable the capitalist system is. Even writing now, I'm furious, depressed. So many emotions at once. I've tried to channel them for good.


By supporting the DPRK?

:lol2: :bow:
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The DNC is better than the GOP like Manslaughter is better than Murder: Seems like a lesser crime, but the victim can't tell the difference.

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Chinese Regions
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Postby Chinese Regions » Wed May 02, 2012 2:02 pm

Dokuritsu Nippon wrote:
New England and The Maritimes wrote:
North Korea certainly hasn't, just like the USSR never did. The private owners changed, but they're still owners. The Party elite still get to do anything they want. Kim Jong Il still had lobster airlifted to his private train in the midst of one of the most utterly destructive famines in human history. No constitution in the world changes the simple fact that North Korea treats its "workers" like insects, or the fact that the majority of people can only get enough food to survive from non-sanctioned private markets.


And I suppose you get all of this "information" from anecdotal accounts of political defectors?

Why would they escape if it was so good?
Workers in North Korea do not own the means of production, they never even tried.
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Chinese Regions
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Postby Chinese Regions » Wed May 02, 2012 2:03 pm

Dokuritsu Nippon wrote:
Genivaria wrote:There are quite a few Cooperatives yes.


Which have, in their own terms, no political sovereignty, thus no means of abolishing private ownership of the means of production.

Don't pretend that the workers actually are in control in North Korea.


Of course they are. It's a workers' state.

It's really not.
Fan of Transformers?|Fan of Star Trek?|你会说中文吗?
Geopolitics: Internationalist, Pan-Asian, Pan-African, Pan-Arab, Pan-Slavic, Eurofederalist,
  • For the promotion of closer ties between Europe and Russia but without Dugin's anti-intellectual quackery.
  • Against NATO, the Anglo-American "special relationship", Israel and Wahhabism.

Sociopolitics: Pro-Intellectual, Pro-Science, Secular, Strictly Anti-Theocractic, for the liberation of PoCs in Western Hemisphere without the hegemony of white liberals
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Genivaria
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Postby Genivaria » Wed May 02, 2012 2:03 pm

Dokuritsu Nippon wrote:
Norstal wrote:Pictures of captured Americans in North Korea, look at how much they're treated well:



It's all in the fingers.


Definitely better than Guantanemo Bay.

So basically your saying, "Well at least I'm not as evil as YOU!"
Last edited by Genivaria on Wed May 02, 2012 2:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Liberal Social Democrat. Vague leftist, growing more cynical as each day passes.
The DNC is better than the GOP like Manslaughter is better than Murder: Seems like a lesser crime, but the victim can't tell the difference.

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Dokuritsu Nippon
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Postby Dokuritsu Nippon » Wed May 02, 2012 2:04 pm

Norstal wrote:
Dokuritsu Nippon wrote:
Do workers there control the means of production?

I wouldn't want them to do that. I lived in a village in Indonesia where the workers controlled the means of the production. Long story-short, they made a fertile rubber farm barren. Instead of professionals, that farm was managed by slack-jawed yokels who don't know a thing about fertilizers or biology. I have a slew of other anecdotes I can throw and you may claim anecdotal fallacy, but meh, you're doing it as well in the OP.

Now don't get me wrong. I hate business majors, bean counters, and other paper-pushers. That doesn't mean, however, that I hate entrepreneurship, which is something a worker-controlled production prevents.


I'm in favor of competent management (ie. the intellectual class leading society, as Juche calls for); I simply wish for them to be a subset of the working class. Not non-laboring pigs who exploit others' labor.

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Ganos Lao
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Postby Ganos Lao » Wed May 02, 2012 2:06 pm

Genivaria wrote:
Dokuritsu Nippon wrote:
Definitely better than Guantanemo Bay.

So basically your saying, "Well at least I'm not as evil as YOU!"


It's the armchair revolutionary's greatest weapon.



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Minnysota
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Postby Minnysota » Wed May 02, 2012 2:06 pm

Dokuritsu Nippon wrote:
Norstal wrote:


It's all in the fingers.


Definitely better than Guantanemo Bay.


North Korea's line of thought:

"Derp derp, let's treat political prisoners from one of the countries we hate the most better than the people who aren't in prison."

That's certainly North Korea showing off how good it is to its people. :)
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Avenio
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Postby Avenio » Wed May 02, 2012 2:06 pm

You going to address my posts, OP?

EDIT: Seriously now, your posts are devolving into 'well so do you!' posts directed solely at things the US does, ignoring the fact that most of 'the West' doesn't do them.
Last edited by Avenio on Wed May 02, 2012 2:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Dokuritsu Nippon
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Postby Dokuritsu Nippon » Wed May 02, 2012 2:06 pm

Minnysota wrote:
Dokuritsu Nippon wrote:
>__<

I have been there, thank you very much. A terrible, terrible place, showing just how absolutely barbaric fascism (capitalism in decay) can be. It actually was a partial epiphany moment, in the face of such unabated evil, that I realized this horrid imperialist system, in all its manifestations, must be opposed at any costs. I actually broke down and cried there, wished I could travel back in time, and slaughter each and ever member of the SS, SA, Nazi Party, everyone. I was an atheist, but I wished in that moment that Christianity was true, just so Hitler could be suffering forever for the great evil he caused. It was only there, facing it, that I realized on more than a mere intellectual level, how evil and detestable the capitalist system is. Even writing now, I'm furious, depressed. So many emotions at once. I've tried to channel them for good.


By supporting the DPRK?


Well, after seeing how evil, uncompromising, antithetical to most human interests the capitalist system (fascism is capitalism in decay, after all) is, I determined that it must be opposed at any costs. The DPRK is the strongest voice against the capitalist-imperialist system at present, so of course they hold my support.

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Dokuritsu Nippon
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Postby Dokuritsu Nippon » Wed May 02, 2012 2:07 pm

Ganos Lao wrote:(Image)

NSG: Where armchair revolutionaries can routinely condemn the system they live under with all the benefits they themselves rely upon by advocating the non-existent merits of a system that's really not that good to begin with.

Up next: America. Is it a Atheist hellhole or a heaven for Christian hypocrisy? You, the armchair Paines and crusaders, decide!


For what it's worth, I'm leaving the US a week from now.

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Chinese Regions
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Postby Chinese Regions » Wed May 02, 2012 2:08 pm

Dokuritsu Nippon wrote:
Norstal wrote:I wouldn't want them to do that. I lived in a village in Indonesia where the workers controlled the means of the production. Long story-short, they made a fertile rubber farm barren. Instead of professionals, that farm was managed by slack-jawed yokels who don't know a thing about fertilizers or biology. I have a slew of other anecdotes I can throw and you may claim anecdotal fallacy, but meh, you're doing it as well in the OP.

Now don't get me wrong. I hate business majors, bean counters, and other paper-pushers. That doesn't mean, however, that I hate entrepreneurship, which is something a worker-controlled production prevents.


I'm in favor of competent management (ie. the intellectual class leading society, as Juche calls for); I simply wish for them to be a subset of the working class. Not non-laboring pigs who exploit others' labor.

I think you misinterpreted what I said about western culture taking the products of scientists etc. for granted. Sure that is good but so is free speech and equal opportunity, like in the western countries you despise so much. Workers owning the means of production is probably better but it is unachievable on national scale. North Korea is far from that anyway.
Fan of Transformers?|Fan of Star Trek?|你会说中文吗?
Geopolitics: Internationalist, Pan-Asian, Pan-African, Pan-Arab, Pan-Slavic, Eurofederalist,
  • For the promotion of closer ties between Europe and Russia but without Dugin's anti-intellectual quackery.
  • Against NATO, the Anglo-American "special relationship", Israel and Wahhabism.

Sociopolitics: Pro-Intellectual, Pro-Science, Secular, Strictly Anti-Theocractic, for the liberation of PoCs in Western Hemisphere without the hegemony of white liberals
Economics: Indifferent

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Ganos Lao
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Postby Ganos Lao » Wed May 02, 2012 2:09 pm

Dokuritsu Nippon wrote:
Ganos Lao wrote:(Image)

NSG: Where armchair revolutionaries can routinely condemn the system they live under with all the benefits they themselves rely upon by advocating the non-existent merits of a system that's really not that good to begin with.

Up next: America. Is it a Atheist hellhole or a heaven for Christian hypocrisy? You, the armchair Paines and crusaders, decide!


For what it's worth, I'm leaving the US a week from now.


Good for you. I hope you find peace amidst the hustle and bustle of the workers' paradise known as North Korea. We here in the real world, where we don't fix the flaws of the current system with an even worse system, wish you all the best of luck on your quest to find peace and happiness.
Last edited by Ganos Lao on Wed May 02, 2012 2:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.



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Genivaria
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Postby Genivaria » Wed May 02, 2012 2:09 pm

Dokuritsu Nippon wrote:
Minnysota wrote:
By supporting the DPRK?


Well, after seeing how evil, uncompromising, antithetical to most human interests the capitalist system (fascism is capitalism in decay, after all) is, I determined that it must be opposed at any costs. The DPRK is the strongest voice against the capitalist-imperialist system at present, so of course they hold my support.

Uh, Social Democracy anyone?
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The DNC is better than the GOP like Manslaughter is better than Murder: Seems like a lesser crime, but the victim can't tell the difference.

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Norstal
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Postby Norstal » Wed May 02, 2012 2:09 pm

Dokuritsu Nippon wrote:
Norstal wrote:I wouldn't want them to do that. I lived in a village in Indonesia where the workers controlled the means of the production. Long story-short, they made a fertile rubber farm barren. Instead of professionals, that farm was managed by slack-jawed yokels who don't know a thing about fertilizers or biology. I have a slew of other anecdotes I can throw and you may claim anecdotal fallacy, but meh, you're doing it as well in the OP.

Now don't get me wrong. I hate business majors, bean counters, and other paper-pushers. That doesn't mean, however, that I hate entrepreneurship, which is something a worker-controlled production prevents.


I'm in favor of competent management (ie. the intellectual class leading society, as Juche calls for); I simply wish for them to be a subset of the working class. Not non-laboring pigs who exploit others' labor.

What the hell does that mean? I'll assume you're talking about the socioeconomic class structure that many sociologists use to classify as "working class".

In the U.S, anyone, as long as they have money, can control the means of production by being a stockholder. The working class in the U.S can certainly afford at least $100 worth of stocks in here.

Now if you actually want to lower someone's income in order to make everyone have equal income, well, that goes against the entrepreneurship I talked about earlier.
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New England and The Maritimes
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Postby New England and The Maritimes » Wed May 02, 2012 2:10 pm

Ganos Lao wrote:(Image)

NSG: Where armchair revolutionaries can routinely condemn the system they live under with all the benefits they themselves rely upon by advocating the non-existent merits of a system that's really not that good to begin with.

Up next: America. Is it a Atheist hellhole or a heaven for Christian hypocrisy? You, the armchair Paines and crusaders, decide!


This is a terrible post. Folks at home, don't fall into the same trap of "Not knowing a thing about the subject you're so half-mindedly condemning."
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Southern Patriots
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Postby Southern Patriots » Wed May 02, 2012 2:11 pm

Dokuritsu Nippon wrote:
Ganos Lao wrote:(Image)

NSG: Where armchair revolutionaries can routinely condemn the system they live under with all the benefits they themselves rely upon by advocating the non-existent merits of a system that's really not that good to begin with.

Up next: America. Is it a Atheist hellhole or a heaven for Christian hypocrisy? You, the armchair Paines and crusaders, decide!


For what it's worth, I'm leaving the US a week from now.

Do you ever purchase the products of capitalism and feel guilty?

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I do hope it wasn't in economics.

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Chinese Regions
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Postby Chinese Regions » Wed May 02, 2012 2:11 pm

Dokuritsu Nippon wrote:
Minnysota wrote:
By supporting the DPRK?


Well, after seeing how evil, uncompromising, antithetical to most human interests the capitalist system (fascism is capitalism in decay, after all) is, I determined that it must be opposed at any costs. The DPRK is the strongest voice against the capitalist-imperialist system at present, so of course they hold my support.

:palm: capitalism may be bad but at least it works. DPRK is fascist, and an absolute monarchy, on par with imperial China and Egypt due to the Kim dynasty's god like status.
Fan of Transformers?|Fan of Star Trek?|你会说中文吗?
Geopolitics: Internationalist, Pan-Asian, Pan-African, Pan-Arab, Pan-Slavic, Eurofederalist,
  • For the promotion of closer ties between Europe and Russia but without Dugin's anti-intellectual quackery.
  • Against NATO, the Anglo-American "special relationship", Israel and Wahhabism.

Sociopolitics: Pro-Intellectual, Pro-Science, Secular, Strictly Anti-Theocractic, for the liberation of PoCs in Western Hemisphere without the hegemony of white liberals
Economics: Indifferent

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Dokuritsu Nippon
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Postby Dokuritsu Nippon » Wed May 02, 2012 2:12 pm

Avenio wrote:
Dokuritsu Nippon wrote:
Do they have sufficient power to abolish private ownership of capital?


In Israel, probably not, but in Germany, for example, 25% of all workers belong to the Confederation of German Trade Unions alone, and that unions are an integral part in the German economy and political system.

Frankly, the German model sounds much closer to a 'workers' state' than North Korea is.


Is there still private ownership of capital in Germany?

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