Western Moral Superiority?

[Dokuritsu Nippon]

Freedom of speech aside, perhaps we should consider shipping off KFA members to Guantanamo!

Well, here we go. Thanks for proving my point for me.

[Chinese Regions]

I find it interesting that the OP uses America as the primary example of the West's apparent hypocrisy, but doesn't talk about the fact that there are many Western nations that are so much better with regards to civil rights and social welfare than the US, and that many within 'the West' criticize America for its actions.

[Genivaria]

What, the state-run revisionist propaganda organ? What good would that do?

You stated that my talking to North Koreans online was merely anecdotal; I provided you with a means by which, if interested, you could as well, so it wouldn't be merely anecdotal.

The North Korean government has a long history of lying to other nations.
Anything that they say is suspect.

[Dokuritsu Nippon]

This whole thing is reminding me of that one year at summer camp. You see, my camp was open to people from other countries. And most of the staff was European.

My cabin one year had one kid from south Korea, and one kid from North Korea.

It was rather awkward as they pointedly ignored each others existence.

Still, aside from the occasional tri-lingual insults, the North Korean guy wasn't bad.

So wait. Someone from the DPRK was outside of the country?

But I thought the infallible authorities at LiNK said it's impossible to leave, they'll shoot you with EPIC LAYZORS if you ever try to cross the border out of the country! Heresy!

[Genivaria]

I find it interesting that the OP uses America as the primary example of the West's apparent hypocrisy, but doesn't talk about the fact that there are many Western nations that are so much better with regards to civil rights and social welfare than the US, and that many within 'the West' criticize America for its actions.

I don't approve of alot of America's actions. I want to change it from within to make it better.

[Urcea]

Freedom of speech aside, perhaps we should consider shipping off KFA members to Guantanamo!

Well, here we go. Thanks for proving my point for me.

I'm...kidding...

[Dokuritsu Nippon]

That's western politics imo not morality, the west values laziness, taking the work of scientists, mathematicians and workers for granted.

Which is one of the factors that drew me to Juche as an ideology in the first place. It is symbolized by the hammer, sickle, and paintbrush, the last in the center. That is, it supports the idea that the intellectual class must be at the very forefront of the revolution and society.

Politically they are superior to North Korea,

For letting the rich grow richer while the poor grow poorer and not assisting their own citizens in such dire straights when they actually possess the resources to do so?

foreign policy wise, yes they can be imperialistic, usually for the wrong reasons,

Indeed.

North Korea doesn't have anything of value, not even strategically like Iraq was in the 80s, considering they have always been an enemy of the west

Actually a fair amount of mineral resources/metals. If they were only able to trade them globally, they'd be doing more or less fine economically.

[Arbites]

Does the West have moral superiority over the rest of the world? No.

Are the West's ideas objectively better than whatever the fuck North Korea is doing? Yes.

So you implicitly state ignorance on the DPRK government's policies, but still somehow claim that the West is superior? 0_0 Don't really see how you can have it both ways.

And really, how is a nation that attempts to provide healthcare, housing, and education to one's population inferior to one that does not in any moral sense?

Actually what I was implying there was a complete lack of transparency on the part of North Korea. We know about the concentration camps, mass starvation, Kim Jong-Il's cartoonish cult of personality, and how the government values blowing money on defective rockets over the welfare of its people. North Korea's got such a totalitarian grip on information though, there's so much we still don't know, and probably won't know until the regime collapses.

[New England and The Maritimes]

Freedom of speech aside, perhaps we should consider shipping off KFA members to Guantanamo!

Well, here we go. Thanks for proving my point for me.

If your point is "Some western nations occasionally detain people without trial for long periods of time, too!" then maybe. Doesn't change the fact that America doesn't take that prisoner's family and put them to work as slave labor on top of doling out punishments to actual offenders.

[Arbites]

What, the state-run revisionist propaganda organ? What good would that do?

You stated that my talking to North Koreans online was merely anecdotal; I provided you with a means by which, if interested, you could as well, so it wouldn't be merely anecdotal.

Those "North Koreans" are likely state employees who have no choice but to say "Everything's fine! Nope, no starvation here, didn't see any! Oh, did you know our Dear Leader shot an 18 on his first round of golf?"

[Dokuritsu Nippon]

If you call brainwashing 'education'

Considering how many commercials (which are by very design intended to change one's subconscious thought processes to make one more likely to take certain actions - or they simply wouldn't be profitable) a Westerner sees in a year, I don't really see how you can qualify the teaching of proper ideology in order to raise worker consciousness as "brainwashing".

Some western nations have free healthcare and education, mind.

And worker control of the means of production?

[Genivaria]

Well, here we go. Thanks for proving my point for me.

If your point is "Some western nations occasionally detain people without trial for long periods of time, too!" then maybe. Doesn't change the fact that America doesn't take that prisoner's family and put them to work as slave labor on top of doling out punishments to actual offenders.

Honestly, if there so damn arrest happy with their own people then it kinda explains why their economy is so shit.

[Genivaria]

If you call brainwashing 'education'

Considering how many commercials (which are by very design intended to change one's subconscious thought processes to make one more likely to take certain actions - or they simply wouldn't be profitable) a Westerner sees in a year, I don't really see how you can qualify the teaching of proper ideology in order to raise worker consciousness as "brainwashing".

Some western nations have free healthcare and education, mind.

And worker control of the means of production?

There are quite a few Cooperatives yes.
Don't pretend that the workers actually are in control in North Korea.

[Dokuritsu Nippon]

All of which are guaranteed here: http://www1.korea-np.co.jp/pk/061st_issue/98091708.htm

The likes of imperialism, however, are not.

That is such bullshit.
North Korea most certainly does NOT have any of those.

WARNING: Under no circumstances whatsoever are you to say something that could be perceived as an insult to Kim Il-sung, Kim Jong-Il, Kim Jong-Un, the Juche ideology, the Songun policy, the ruling Worker's Party of Korea, or the entire North Korean government in general, and the citizens.

Simply avoid these topics if you can. Keep in mind that anyone can be an undercover government agent or a minder.
Respond accordingly when this subject is at hand, always keep in mind you might be tested and pushed into admitting your real feelings on these subjects, whatever they may be.

You and your guide are likely to face serious trouble but your guide will bear the worst. "In trouble" does not mean a slap on the wrist. North Korea is known for extremely harsh punishments which range (for the guides) from lengthy prison sentences to a lifetime of severe mistreatment, hard labour, or even torture by intelligence officers, while you are likely to be sentenced to a stay in a local prison or labour camp, deported, and banned from re-entering.
Assume that you will be under surveillance at all times during your trip including your hotel room.

http://wikitravel.org/en/North_Korea#Stay_safe

Wikitravel. Really? xD

Anyhow, if you actually bothered to read the Constitution I linked to, they are in fact, all guaranteed by it.

[Genivaria]

That is such bullshit.
North Korea most certainly does NOT have any of those.

http://wikitravel.org/en/North_Korea#Stay_safe

Wikitravel. Really? xD

Anyhow, if you actually bothered to read the Constitution I linked to, they are in fact, all guaranteed by it.

You mean if I actually BELIEVED a document written by a government for that has a history of lying to other countries?
I could likely give you 10 sources for that but you would likely dismiss them all as "Capitalist propaganda" or some nonsense.

Honestly, I'm not a Capitalist myself, but I don't think there is some kind of Global Bourgeois Conspiracy going on.

[Dokuritsu Nippon]

I find it interesting that the OP uses America as the primary example of the West's apparent hypocrisy, but doesn't talk about the fact that there are many Western nations that are so much better with regards to civil rights and social welfare than the US, and that many within 'the West' criticize America for its actions.

Do any of the other western nations take a more accomodating position towards the DPRK?

Do any of the other western nations have workers control of the means of production?

[Southern Patriots]

So is OP the new Tokyoni?

OP is Tokyoni. Just noticed.

I for one welcome our Juche overlords.

[Genivaria]

I find it interesting that the OP uses America as the primary example of the West's apparent hypocrisy, but doesn't talk about the fact that there are many Western nations that are so much better with regards to civil rights and social welfare than the US, and that many within 'the West' criticize America for its actions.

Do any of the other western nations take a more accommodating position towards the DPRK?

Do any of the other western nations have workers control of the means of production?

No, why would any moral nation do such a thing?
As for the workers control nonsense, yes many western countries allow democratic, worker-owned Cooperatives.
What? Are you implying that North Korea DOES allow the workers to control things?

[Genivaria]

So is OP the new Tokyoni?

OP is Tokyoni. Just noticed.

I for one welcome our Juche overlords.

And then they shot you for not being Korean.
Juche isn't even Stalinism. Its North Korean Nazism.

[Southern Patriots]

So is OP the new Tokyoni?

OP is Tokyoni. Just noticed.

I for one welcome our Juche overlords.

And then they shot you for not being Korean.

Such is life in our glorious Juche paradise.

[Proloteriat]

The west dosen't have much moral superiority its an evil imperialist bastard with no respect to anyone exept the rich. But it holds absolute moral superiority over North Korea. If a nation can't even feed its own people its not much of a nation. Its the most corrupt nation on the planet unable to do anything exept for Pyongang although once it was better than its Southern equivalent by a long way its lost any credibility it has.

Cuba is a communist country I am willing to defend... But North Korea is pure evil worse than anyone else on the planet by a long shot.

[Arbites]

I find it interesting that the OP uses America as the primary example of the West's apparent hypocrisy, but doesn't talk about the fact that there are many Western nations that are so much better with regards to civil rights and social welfare than the US, and that many within 'the West' criticize America for its actions.

Do any of the other western nations take a more accomodating position towards the DPRK?

Do any of the other western nations have workers control of the means of production?

Kind of irrelevant, seeing as how workers in the DPRK don't have control of the means of production either.

[Dokuritsu Nippon]

Actually what I was implying there was a complete lack of transparency on the part of North Korea.

Yet, you claim, somehow, to know the following things:

We know about the concentration camps,

Once more, I'll qualify, as a person with a lot of Jewish members in my family (who'd probably be considered a Mischling under that horrible fascist - capitalism in decay - state), it is highly, highly offensive for you to use the words "concentration camp" as merely a buzzword against a nation you disagree with politically.

It's a grave insult to the memories of all those millions who did suffer and die under that horrible fascist system.

And if you make such an offensive comparison again, I will call in the moderators.

mass starvation,

During the early 90s, "mass" might have been somewhat justified as a qualifier. But that most derives from geography and lack of trading partners.

Kim Jong-Il's cartoonish cult of personality,

No more than say Washington's. We only named our capital building after him, built a huge monument, painted a picture where he's literally said to be made into a God in heaven, etc. It's more just how human psychology works towards a national liberator moreso than anything so sinister as you'd like to imply. And it's definitely overblown by Western media.

and how the government values blowing money on defective rockets over the welfare of its people.

Maybe because they're trying to defend themselves from the most heavily funded military on the planet just across the border. Just a thought.

North Korea's got such a totalitarian grip on information though, there's so much we still don't know, and probably won't know until the regime collapses.

[/quote]

How convenient an assertion.

[Avenio]

Do any of the other western nations take a more accomodating position towards the DPRK?

Probably? I know Brazil has a relatively friendly relationship with North Korea, and my own country, Canada, has historically interacted with the North, and has only recently suspended relations after the incident with the Cheonan.

Do any of the other western nations have workers control of the means of production?

I know they have a much higher income equality, social programmes and civil rights than America. Some of them even have nationalized or partialy-nationalized industries for the benefit of the people, like the NHS, and some encourage the development of co-operatives and work closely with worker unions, like Germany.

I'm struggling to see what either point has to do with your selective targeting of the US, though.

[Dokuritsu Nippon]

You stated that my talking to North Koreans online was merely anecdotal; I provided you with a means by which, if interested, you could as well, so it wouldn't be merely anecdotal.

Those "North Koreans" are likely state employees who have no choice but to say "Everything's fine! Nope, no starvation here, didn't see any! Oh, did you know our Dear Leader shot an 18 on his first round of golf?"

Ehh, I've had much more extensive conversations with that. The one I've talked to the most is a young man studying English at Kim Il Sung University. No government position.

A lot of our communication has been on helping each other learn the other's language, cultural things (food, holidays, music in our countries), even more mundane stuff, girls, tae kwon do forms, the weather, whatever.

It might be surprising, but they aren't these mindless robot autonomatons the media has them out to be. They're normal human beings like you or I or anyone else really. Shocking, I know.