Non-offensive religon thread

[Catan]

I heard an argument from an athiest that unsettled me (and made me laugh). This athiest is a dear friend of mine, and we often get into religous debates. He said that all christians are almost as athiest as he is. See, he rejects all religions, and we reject all but one. According to this argument, then, an agnostic is the person with the most religion, as he dismisses next to none. I thought this was a good point, and I am having a difficult time refuting it. How can I call him godless, when I myself am mostly godless as well? I can't.

Thoughts NSG? BTW, this will be a non-offensive thread, so no insults or attacks on either side please? Just calm discussion please.

[The Archregimancy]

Moved to General - not sure how it ended up in Gameplay given OP's intent.

[Ifreann]

Is your atheist friend Stephen F. Roberts?

[Khadgar]

Good luck with the non-offensive part. Someone will be offended by they very mention.

I have no problem with people's faith, as long as they don't try to legislate it.

[Goodclark]

This will be a non-offensive thread, so no insults or attacks on either side please? Just calm discussion please.

Good Luck with that

[Mass Psychosis]

Good to see the Original Poster is thinking and is on the right track. Keep thinking, and you may end up discovering that you are an atheist yourself, eventually. You're already making excellent progress and I am quite pleased to see you questioning the dogma that you were most likely indoctrinated into since a young age. It's always good to see people question the dogma that adults brainwash them into thinking when they are young, impressionable children. Even if your parents teach you to be an atheist, you should question whatever belief or disbelief system you are indoctrinated into from a young age, and think for yourself. As the saying goes, a mind is a terrible thing to waste. The more people think for themselves, the better this world will be. It's nice to see a religious person who doesn't go around condemning atheists as evil sinners who are agents of Satan and are doomed to eternity in hell. Anyway, for many people, becoming an atheist is a long journey of thinking, reflection, discovery, and increased awareness and understanding. It seems you have already begun this journey, but you can still change your mind, stop thinking, and turn back, if maintaining your faith is more important to you than finding the truth. And while that may SEEM like a choice, it is not, it is merely the illusion of free will. People cannot DECIDE what to believe or what not to believe; you either know something or you don't know it, you are either sure of something or you are unsure, and this is not something people have any control over. For example, I am an atheist, I do not believe in God, but I think I would enjoy the comfort of believing that I could spend eternity in heaven, and I have attempted in the past to convince myself that religion is true, in order to give myself this false comfort and false sense of security. However, my rational mind simply cannot accept the Bible or God no matter how hard I try to believe... it just becomes more and more obvious to me that it is all made up, unrealistic superstition, and that atheism is the truth. It is not my choice to be an atheist any more than it is someone's choice to be a certain sexual orientation. I simply AM an atheist, it's just who I am, part of my very nature, something that cannot be changed. Similarly there are people who simply ARE religious and it is part of their nature and no amount of logic or evidence could EVER persuade them otherwise, and, like me, they cannot be changed either. But some people DO change from being religious to being atheists, or vice versa, and that is quite an interesting phenomenon. However, it does not appear to be something that is voluntary, that people have any control over, from the various anecdotes I have heard from people who converted or deconverted. It is something that happens TO a person, not something that they DO. I get the sense that this process MIGHT be happening to the original poster, and I am quite pleased, because although I once did pine for the false comforts of religion, I now understand that rationality is indeed beneficial to people, helping them avoid unnecessary guilt, helping them make wiser decisions, and helping them think for themselves. One of the most common threads I hear in stories of atheists who used to be born-again Christians but deconverted is that they actually READ THE BIBLE and found it both horrifying and ridiculous. I would encourage anyone questioning their religion to actually read their holy texts and ask yourself questions like "Is this God someone who does good things to people or someone who does evil things to people?", "Does this book seem sensible, well-written, and internally consistent, or does it seem like unbelievable mythology that is full of contradictions?", and "Is punishing someone with eternity in hell the kind of thing that can be morally justified, if all the person did was some finite amount of sinning and disbelief, for which they received an infinite amount of punishment lasting for all eternity?" The Old Testament in particular is full of stories of God massacring innocent people, the Book of Job tells about God torturing a faithful believer because God and Satan had a bet over whether or not Job would stay faithful and God was playing games with Job for his own sadistic amusement, and there are many rules in the Old Testament that seem quite morally reprehensible by modern standards, such as a very long list of minor offenses for which people should be executed (for instance, homosexuality, being a child who is disobedient to your parents, eating shrimp, masturbating, and many others). I can guarantee you that at least 99% of people have committed at least one offense that the Old Testament says should be punishable by death. Does it really make sense to live your life based on the teachings of a book that says things like that? I think the answer is fairly obvious.

[Divair]

Non-offensive religion thread?

Nice try.

[Ramenasia]

The depth of a person's belief is not gauged by the number of religions or gods they believe in but by the strength of their conviction that their religion is the true religion.

[Ifreann]

Good to see the Original Poster is thinking and is on the right track. Keep thinking, and you may end up discovering that you are an atheist yourself, eventually. You're already making excellent progress and I am quite pleased to see you questioning the dogma that you were most likely indoctrinated into since a young age. It's always good to see people question the dogma that adults brainwash them into thinking when they are young, impressionable children. Even if your parents teach you to be an atheist, you should question whatever belief or disbelief system you are indoctrinated into from a young age, and think for yourself. As the saying goes, a mind is a terrible thing to waste. The more people think for themselves, the better this world will be. It's nice to see a religious person who doesn't go around condemning atheists as evil sinners who are agents of Satan and are doomed to eternity in hell. Anyway, for many people, becoming an atheist is a long journey of thinking, reflection, discovery, and increased awareness and understanding. It seems you have already begun this journey, but you can still change your mind, stop thinking, and turn back, if maintaining your faith is more important to you than finding the truth. And while that may SEEM like a choice, it is not, it is merely the illusion of free will. People cannot DECIDE what to believe or what not to believe; you either know something or you don't know it, you are either sure of something or you are unsure, and this is not something people have any control over. For example, I am an atheist, I do not believe in God, but I think I would enjoy the comfort of believing that I could spend eternity in heaven, and I have attempted in the past to convince myself that religion is true, in order to give myself this false comfort and false sense of security. However, my rational mind simply cannot accept the Bible or God no matter how hard I try to believe... it just becomes more and more obvious to me that it is all made up, unrealistic superstition, and that atheism is the truth. It is not my choice to be an atheist any more than it is someone's choice to be a certain sexual orientation. I simply AM an atheist, it's just who I am, part of my very nature, something that cannot be changed. Similarly there are people who simply ARE religious and it is part of their nature and no amount of logic or evidence could EVER persuade them otherwise, and, like me, they cannot be changed either. But some people DO change from being religious to being atheists, or vice versa, and that is quite an interesting phenomenon. However, it does not appear to be something that is voluntary, that people have any control over, from the various anecdotes I have heard from people who converted or deconverted. It is something that happens TO a person, not something that they DO. I get the sense that this process MIGHT be happening to the original poster, and I am quite pleased, because although I once did pine for the false comforts of religion, I now understand that rationality is indeed beneficial to people, helping them avoid unnecessary guilt, helping them make wiser decisions, and helping them think for themselves. One of the most common threads I hear in stories of atheists who used to be born-again Christians but deconverted is that they actually READ THE BIBLE and found it both horrifying and ridiculous. I would encourage anyone questioning their religion to actually read their holy texts and ask yourself questions like "Is this God someone who does good things to people or someone who does evil things to people?", "Does this book seem sensible, well-written, and internally consistent, or does it seem like unbelievable mythology that is full of contradictions?", and "Is punishing someone with eternity in hell the kind of thing that can be morally justified, if all the person did was some finite amount of sinning and disbelief, for which they received an infinite amount of punishment lasting for all eternity?" The Old Testament in particular is full of stories of God massacring innocent people, the Book of Job tells about God torturing a faithful believer because God and Satan had a bet over whether or not Job would stay faithful and God was playing games with Job for his own sadistic amusement, and there are many rules in the Old Testament that seem quite morally reprehensible by modern standards, such as a very long list of minor offenses for which people should be executed (for instance, homosexuality, being a child who is disobedient to your parents, eating shrimp, masturbating, and many others). I can guarantee you that at least 99% of people have committed at least one offense that the Old Testament says should be punishable by death. Does it really make sense to live your life based on the teachings of a book that says things like that? I think the answer is fairly obvious.

Paragraphs are your friend.

[Disserbia]

Its a stupid argument because the main difference is not the religions you reject but the fact that one of you believes in a religion at all. Most Christians don't reject all other monotheistic religions completely anyway...In Islam, they acknowledge their similarities with other religions by calling other monotheists "people of the book".

I hate arguments that sound clever but upon examination contain nothing of value, its one of the biggest problems with the world today.

[Raeyh]

refuting it. How can I call him godless, when I myself am mostly godless as well? I can't.

Become a polytheist.

[Yootwopia]

ccording to this argument, then, an agnostic is the person with the most religion, as he dismisses next to none.

Nah, agnostics are just stealth Deists.

[Viens]

I heard an argument from an athiest that unsettled me (and made me laugh). This athiest is a dear friend of mine, and we often get into religous debates. He said that all christians are almost as athiest as he is. See, he rejects all religions, and we reject all but one. According to this argument, then, an agnostic is the person with the most religion, as he dismisses next to none. I thought this was a good point, and I am having a difficult time refuting it. How can I call him godless, when I myself am mostly godless as well? I can't.

Thoughts NSG? BTW, this will be a non-offensive thread, so no insults or attacks on either side please? Just calm discussion please.

Here's an idea -- don't debate religion. It's pointless. Calling him "godless" seems as though its an insult. Let him have his beliefs, and he'll let you have yours .

[Page]

Good to see the Original Poster is thinking and is on the right track. Keep thinking, and you may end up discovering that you are an atheist yourself, eventually. You're already making excellent progress and I am quite pleased to see you questioning the dogma that you were most likely indoctrinated into since a young age. It's always good to see people question the dogma that adults brainwash them into thinking when they are young, impressionable children. Even if your parents teach you to be an atheist, you should question whatever belief or disbelief system you are indoctrinated into from a young age, and think for yourself. As the saying goes, a mind is a terrible thing to waste. The more people think for themselves, the better this world will be. It's nice to see a religious person who doesn't go around condemning atheists as evil sinners who are agents of Satan and are doomed to eternity in hell. Anyway, for many people, becoming an atheist is a long journey of thinking, reflection, discovery, and increased awareness and understanding. It seems you have already begun this journey, but you can still change your mind, stop thinking, and turn back, if maintaining your faith is more important to you than finding the truth. And while that may SEEM like a choice, it is not, it is merely the illusion of free will. People cannot DECIDE what to believe or what not to believe; you either know something or you don't know it, you are either sure of something or you are unsure, and this is not something people have any control over. For example, I am an atheist, I do not believe in God, but I think I would enjoy the comfort of believing that I could spend eternity in heaven, and I have attempted in the past to convince myself that religion is true, in order to give myself this false comfort and false sense of security. However, my rational mind simply cannot accept the Bible or God no matter how hard I try to believe... it just becomes more and more obvious to me that it is all made up, unrealistic superstition, and that atheism is the truth. It is not my choice to be an atheist any more than it is someone's choice to be a certain sexual orientation. I simply AM an atheist, it's just who I am, part of my very nature, something that cannot be changed. Similarly there are people who simply ARE religious and it is part of their nature and no amount of logic or evidence could EVER persuade them otherwise, and, like me, they cannot be changed either. But some people DO change from being religious to being atheists, or vice versa, and that is quite an interesting phenomenon. However, it does not appear to be something that is voluntary, that people have any control over, from the various anecdotes I have heard from people who converted or deconverted. It is something that happens TO a person, not something that they DO. I get the sense that this process MIGHT be happening to the original poster, and I am quite pleased, because although I once did pine for the false comforts of religion, I now understand that rationality is indeed beneficial to people, helping them avoid unnecessary guilt, helping them make wiser decisions, and helping them think for themselves. One of the most common threads I hear in stories of atheists who used to be born-again Christians but deconverted is that they actually READ THE BIBLE and found it both horrifying and ridiculous. I would encourage anyone questioning their religion to actually read their holy texts and ask yourself questions like "Is this God someone who does good things to people or someone who does evil things to people?", "Does this book seem sensible, well-written, and internally consistent, or does it seem like unbelievable mythology that is full of contradictions?", and "Is punishing someone with eternity in hell the kind of thing that can be morally justified, if all the person did was some finite amount of sinning and disbelief, for which they received an infinite amount of punishment lasting for all eternity?" The Old Testament in particular is full of stories of God massacring innocent people, the Book of Job tells about God torturing a faithful believer because God and Satan had a bet over whether or not Job would stay faithful and God was playing games with Job for his own sadistic amusement, and there are many rules in the Old Testament that seem quite morally reprehensible by modern standards, such as a very long list of minor offenses for which people should be executed (for instance, homosexuality, being a child who is disobedient to your parents, eating shrimp, masturbating, and many others). I can guarantee you that at least 99% of people have committed at least one offense that the Old Testament says should be punishable by death. Does it really make sense to live your life based on the teachings of a book that says things like that? I think the answer is fairly obvious.

Godless comrade, in the course of human evolution, our species has spontaneously and without the help of mythical deities developed adaptive measures such as paragraps and indentation. Please use them.

[Condunum]

Good to see the Original Poster is thinking and is on the right track. Keep thinking, and you may end up discovering that you are an atheist yourself, eventually. You're already making excellent progress and I am quite pleased to see you questioning the dogma that you were most likely indoctrinated into since a young age. It's always good to see people question the dogma that adults brainwash them into thinking when they are young, impressionable children. Even if your parents teach you to be an atheist, you should question whatever belief or disbelief system you are indoctrinated into from a young age, and think for yourself. As the saying goes, a mind is a terrible thing to waste. The more people think for themselves, the better this world will be. It's nice to see a religious person who doesn't go around condemning atheists as evil sinners who are agents of Satan and are doomed to eternity in hell. Anyway, for many people, becoming an atheist is a long journey of thinking, reflection, discovery, and increased awareness and understanding. It seems you have already begun this journey, but you can still change your mind, stop thinking, and turn back, if maintaining your faith is more important to you than finding the truth. And while that may SEEM like a choice, it is not, it is merely the illusion of free will. People cannot DECIDE what to believe or what not to believe; you either know something or you don't know it, you are either sure of something or you are unsure, and this is not something people have any control over. For example, I am an atheist, I do not believe in God, but I think I would enjoy the comfort of believing that I could spend eternity in heaven, and I have attempted in the past to convince myself that religion is true, in order to give myself this false comfort and false sense of security. However, my rational mind simply cannot accept the Bible or God no matter how hard I try to believe... it just becomes more and more obvious to me that it is all made up, unrealistic superstition, and that atheism is the truth. It is not my choice to be an atheist any more than it is someone's choice to be a certain sexual orientation. I simply AM an atheist, it's just who I am, part of my very nature, something that cannot be changed. Similarly there are people who simply ARE religious and it is part of their nature and no amount of logic or evidence could EVER persuade them otherwise, and, like me, they cannot be changed either. But some people DO change from being religious to being atheists, or vice versa, and that is quite an interesting phenomenon. However, it does not appear to be something that is voluntary, that people have any control over, from the various anecdotes I have heard from people who converted or deconverted. It is something that happens TO a person, not something that they DO. I get the sense that this process MIGHT be happening to the original poster, and I am quite pleased, because although I once did pine for the false comforts of religion, I now understand that rationality is indeed beneficial to people, helping them avoid unnecessary guilt, helping them make wiser decisions, and helping them think for themselves. One of the most common threads I hear in stories of atheists who used to be born-again Christians but deconverted is that they actually READ THE BIBLE and found it both horrifying and ridiculous. I would encourage anyone questioning their religion to actually read their holy texts and ask yourself questions like "Is this God someone who does good things to people or someone who does evil things to people?", "Does this book seem sensible, well-written, and internally consistent, or does it seem like unbelievable mythology that is full of contradictions?", and "Is punishing someone with eternity in hell the kind of thing that can be morally justified, if all the person did was some finite amount of sinning and disbelief, for which they received an infinite amount of punishment lasting for all eternity?" The Old Testament in particular is full of stories of God massacring innocent people, the Book of Job tells about God torturing a faithful believer because God and Satan had a bet over whether or not Job would stay faithful and God was playing games with Job for his own sadistic amusement, and there are many rules in the Old Testament that seem quite morally reprehensible by modern standards, such as a very long list of minor offenses for which people should be executed (for instance, homosexuality, being a child who is disobedient to your parents, eating shrimp, masturbating, and many others). I can guarantee you that at least 99% of people have committed at least one offense that the Old Testament says should be punishable by death. Does it really make sense to live your life based on the teachings of a book that says things like that? I think the answer is fairly obvious.

Dear god.

[Kleomentia]

Non-offensive...does not compute...ERROR ERROR, ABORT ABORT, SYSTEM WILL CRASH! *explodes*
Non-offensive=/=discussion about religion

[Leepaidamba]

I heard an argument from an athiest that unsettled me (and made me laugh). This athiest is a dear friend of mine, and we often get into religous debates. He said that all christians are almost as athiest as he is. See, he rejects all religions, and we reject all but one. According to this argument, then, an agnostic is the person with the most religion, as he dismisses next to none. I thought this was a good point, and I am having a difficult time refuting it. How can I call him godless, when I myself am mostly godless as well? I can't.

Thoughts NSG? BTW, this will be a non-offensive thread, so no insults or attacks on either side please? Just calm discussion please.

Thoughts? 'When you realise why you reject all other religions, you'll realise why I reject yours.' I think your friend has a good point but he's packaged it in some good looking but ultimately dishonest bullshit which others have pointed out already.

[Page]

I kind of want to put a thread title "Why Do We Put Agnosticism On a Pedastal?" and rant about the fact that just like there is strong and weak theism and strong and weak atheism, there is likewise strong and weak agnosticism and a strong agnostic who says "There is no way to be sure if there is or isn't a god." is making as absolutist statement as "There is a god" and "There is not a god."

[Ordo Drakul]

Look at it this way-if there is no god and no afterlife, believing in one doesn't harm anyone. If there is a god, however, you're screwed in the afterlife.

[Kilobugya]

Well, it shouldn't be taken too seriously, the "but you're atheist for all other religions" is mostly a joke. But that joke comes from a real issue : the fact that adhering to any given religion is privileging one hypothesis, among a set of hypothesis which is incredibly high, with few evidence to favor one over the other. To use an analogy, it's like if you find a dead person in the middle of a big city. The atheist is the one that claims the person died from natural reasons. The agnostic the one who says he doesn't know what happened. The deist the one who says "the person was murdered but I don't know by who". The religious believer will be the one who not only believe it was a murder, but point to one person in specific as being the murderer, among the millions of possible murderers. Your friend (atheist, so believing the death was natural) is saying you (believer so believing you know the culprit) "I believe everyone to be innocent, you believe everyone except one to be innocent". In itself, it's not a problem. It's only problem is evidence towards this specific person being the murderer (aka, this specific religion being true) is low/absent.

For myself I'm atheist, I do believe that in this case, evidence points massively towards "no god", but I think this analogy applies more generally, even if you're a believer.

[Unchecked Expansion]

Look at it this way-if there is no god and no afterlife, believing in one doesn't harm anyone. If there is a god, however, you're screwed in the afterlife.

What if it's a god that only likes atheists?

[Kilobugya]

Look at it this way-if there is no god and no afterlife, believing in one doesn't harm anyone. If there is a god, however, you're screwed in the afterlife.

Pascal's wager is deeply flawed. For if there is a god and an afterlife, you've absolutely no reason to believe you'll be more screwed by honestly being atheist than by believing only in the fear of punishment - and very likely believing wrongly, because in the millions of possible religion, you'll very likely have chosen a wrong one.

[Yahkima]

Look at it this way-if there is no god and no afterlife, believing in one doesn't harm anyone. If there is a god, however, you're screwed in the afterlife.

You've never actually thought about this at all have you?

What if there is a god who only accepts atheists?

[Volnotova]

Good to see the Original Poster is thinking and is on the right track. Keep thinking, and you may end up discovering that you are an atheist yourself, eventually. You're already making excellent progress and I am quite pleased to see you questioning the dogma that you were most likely indoctrinated into since a young age. It's always good to see people question the dogma that adults brainwash them into thinking when they are young, impressionable children. Even if your parents teach you to be an atheist, you should question whatever belief or disbelief system you are indoctrinated into from a young age, and think for yourself. As the saying goes, a mind is a terrible thing to waste. The more people think for themselves, the better this world will be. It's nice to see a religious person who doesn't go around condemning atheists as evil sinners who are agents of Satan and are doomed to eternity in hell. Anyway, for many people, becoming an atheist is a long journey of thinking, reflection, discovery, and increased awareness and understanding. It seems you have already begun this journey, but you can still change your mind, stop thinking, and turn back, if maintaining your faith is more important to you than finding the truth. And while that may SEEM like a choice, it is not, it is merely the illusion of free will. People cannot DECIDE what to believe or what not to believe; you either know something or you don't know it, you are either sure of something or you are unsure, and this is not something people have any control over. For example, I am an atheist, I do not believe in God, but I think I would enjoy the comfort of believing that I could spend eternity in heaven, and I have attempted in the past to convince myself that religion is true, in order to give myself this false comfort and false sense of security. However, my rational mind simply cannot accept the Bible or God no matter how hard I try to believe... it just becomes more and more obvious to me that it is all made up, unrealistic superstition, and that atheism is the truth. It is not my choice to be an atheist any more than it is someone's choice to be a certain sexual orientation. I simply AM an atheist, it's just who I am, part of my very nature, something that cannot be changed. Similarly there are people who simply ARE religious and it is part of their nature and no amount of logic or evidence could EVER persuade them otherwise, and, like me, they cannot be changed either. But some people DO change from being religious to being atheists, or vice versa, and that is quite an interesting phenomenon. However, it does not appear to be something that is voluntary, that people have any control over, from the various anecdotes I have heard from people who converted or deconverted. It is something that happens TO a person, not something that they DO. I get the sense that this process MIGHT be happening to the original poster, and I am quite pleased, because although I once did pine for the false comforts of religion, I now understand that rationality is indeed beneficial to people, helping them avoid unnecessary guilt, helping them make wiser decisions, and helping them think for themselves. One of the most common threads I hear in stories of atheists who used to be born-again Christians but deconverted is that they actually READ THE BIBLE and found it both horrifying and ridiculous. I would encourage anyone questioning their religion to actually read their holy texts and ask yourself questions like "Is this God someone who does good things to people or someone who does evil things to people?", "Does this book seem sensible, well-written, and internally consistent, or does it seem like unbelievable mythology that is full of contradictions?", and "Is punishing someone with eternity in hell the kind of thing that can be morally justified, if all the person did was some finite amount of sinning and disbelief, for which they received an infinite amount of punishment lasting for all eternity?" The Old Testament in particular is full of stories of God massacring innocent people, the Book of Job tells about God torturing a faithful believer because God and Satan had a bet over whether or not Job would stay faithful and God was playing games with Job for his own sadistic amusement, and there are many rules in the Old Testament that seem quite morally reprehensible by modern standards, such as a very long list of minor offenses for which people should be executed (for instance, homosexuality, being a child who is disobedient to your parents, eating shrimp, masturbating, and many others). I can guarantee you that at least 99% of people have committed at least one offense that the Old Testament says should be punishable by death. Does it really make sense to live your life based on the teachings of a book that says things like that? I think the answer is fairly obvious.

Can't bother to read it as it hurts my eyes.

Paragraphs, they help.

[Bhangbhangdukh]

Look at it this way-if there is no god and no afterlife, believing in one doesn't harm anyone. If there is a god, however, you're screwed in the afterlife.

Your piece of weapons grade stupidity (tm) thinking, is known as "Pascal's Wager".

It's a fraudulent argument because a) it assumes that the chances of a deity existing and not existing are equal, and b) that there is only one, and it's your's...

If you go around believing in that Jesus person, and it turns out that it's actually Quetzalovercoatal, the Tolmec god of woolen winter clothing...

Then you are really screwed for eternity...