Girl refused school place because of pregnancy, being single

[Forster Keys]

Are these denominational schools run and funded by the government?

Sorry, the word 'State' must've slipped away as I intended to type it. Fixed.

Ah. Truly? Wow. So much for separation of church and state.

[Laerod]

Ok, let's also lay to rest the idea that it "should" be allowed to discriminate. Apparently, it's illegal for them to do so. I'm not sure if this includes private schools or is limited to public and state-funded schools, but for the sake of argument, let's assume that the law applies to private schools as well. As such the legal situation is clear: The school is in violation of the law and thus ought to have allowed the girl in. Whether this law is just becomes an ethical argument, but here comes the fun part: It is unchristian, and thus uncatholic, to turn someone away like this or to cast out those that are unwanted. Whether or not you agree with allowing private schools to discriminate based on criteria of their choosing, as a christian denominational school, this school has a duty to care for the unwanted and rejected and not to robe itself in smug superiority to scoff at those it deems "unclean".

[Nazis in Space]

Sorry, the word 'State' must've slipped away as I intended to type it. Fixed.

Ah. Truly? Wow. So much for separation of church and state.

Well, these schools do nowadays accept students from any background - protestants in catholic schools, muslims in protestant schools, etc. -, and apart from mandatory RE classes (Which are, as a rule, sufficiently open for atheists to score A-equivalents), they're not exactly any different from any other school.

Look at it as the separation between church and state being ensured by societal norms (Enforcing the above as a matter of course), rather than through laws.

[Volnotova]

Very Christian to do such a thing.

[Laerod]

Which happily removes the 'It's their own money, they can do whatever they want' argument, doesn't it?

And that's assuming that such an argument has merit, which in the case of educational institutions covering children, it frankly doesn't.

Hardly; as the majority of their income still comes from private sources. Govt funding is typically given to private schools to lower the cost of school fees; allowing students from lower socio-economic backgrounds to receive a better education in the private sector.

If they accept state funding, they play by state rules. No discussion.

Everyone deserves an education; but that why the state provides it universally. This girl could go to a state school or even to a non-religious private school; it's not like this is her only option.

Yeah, but she wanted to go to a school where her friends were and the school apparently accepted her until their smug superiority got in the way.

[Condunum]

Ireland: Proving to the world that it has people just as crazy as America since December 6, 1922.

[Ifreann]

...This is surprising why? I mean, after all the reasons I've heard for religious schools refusing students on this site, this is actually pretty mild.

It's actually a lay school with a Catholic ethos.

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Devils advocate here (seeing as no one is taking the other side). Pregnant women may not be able to pay as they are spending their money on their kid.

There's no indication that this is a fee-paying school. Most schools here are not. And if this girl was refused a place because she couldn't pay, this wouldn't be an issue at all.

They will not devote the time needed to their studies as their child will absord all their time and energy.

Like how single moths can't hold down jobs? Oh wait.

Letting single mothers on campus will encourage sexual immorality on campus (a bogus argument, but one I can see a conservative making.)

I suppose they might, and they'd be wrong.

The hormones running through her body could cause a class disruption,

...how?

the school may spend more money with things like nurses and basic medical stuff...uh... thats all the devils advocate I can strech my brain to do at the moment.

I can't imagine a pregnant girl or single mother would be relying on the school nurse(if the school has one) for her medical needs.

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Stick the slut in a Magdalan Asylum and let the nuns straighten her out. I'm sure she'll find Jesus that way.

We shut them down when the recession hit, unfortunately.

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It's a private school. The owners have the right to deny any student for whatever reason they please. No matter how bigoted, stupid and unfair said reason may be.

I don't believe that is the case here. Quoting the Ombudsman's report:

4.2 School enrolment policies and practices should comply with the Equal Status Acts 2000-
2004 which prohibits discrimination on the grounds of gender, civil status, family status, sexual
orientation, religion, age, disability, membership of the Traveller Community and race.
Exemptions apply for single sex schools and where the objective is to provide education in an
environment that promotes certain religious values. In such situations the school can admit
persons of a particular religion in preference to others. Where a person of that religion is
refused admission, the school must prove that the refusal is essential to maintain the ethos of
the school.

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A 'catholic ethos' school rejects student who doesn't match up to a (strict) catholic ethos.

Does what it say on the tin?

If schools with a Catholic ethos must refused a place to sinners to maintain that ethos, then I believe the school would have to be empty at all times. If I recall correctly, we're all sinners except that Jesus chap, and he's dead.

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Where'd you get that idea?

Catholic schools, like basically any religious school, do not get Government funding, right?

That is not the case in Ireland.

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I thought it was a Catholic school?

In Ireland. Now the wiki entry on catholic schools in Ireland is riddled with "citations needed", but it appears that the school accepts public funding. We can't say for sure because it's only being referred to as School A, but this does not appear to be a private school.

I can't speak to the legalities of it, but I went to a catholic primary and secondary school, and neither charges any fees.

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Ireland has a national religion? I don't think so. The funds are probably private.

I don't think Ireland has a national religion, been a while since I last researched it.

We do not.

---

Which happily removes the 'It's their own money, they can do whatever they want' argument, doesn't it?

And that's assuming that such an argument has merit, which in the case of educational institutions covering children, it frankly doesn't.

Hardly; as the majority of their income still comes from private sources. Govt funding is typically given to private schools to lower the cost of school fees; allowing students from lower socio-economic backgrounds to receive a better education in the private sector.

Everyone deserves an education; but that why the state provides it universally. This girl could go to a state school or even to a non-religious private school; it's not like this is her only option.

And why is it acceptable to discriminate against pregnant girls and single mothers when they have other options?

---

Sorry, the word 'State' must've slipped away as I intended to type it. Fixed.

Ah. Truly? Wow. So much for separation of church and state.

Welcome to Ireland.

---

Ireland: Proving to the world that it has people just as crazy as America since December 6, 1922.

You're welcome, America.

[Eviliatopia]

And over the gate of every public school it should say "The owners of this school have no right to deny you education. This Public School fulfills the ideal of Universal Education, even for assholes who don't appreciate it"

More like: "You are supposed to be the owners of this school, which a minority funded against your will with your own money. Said minority, to which you refer as " government ", has figured out that you fuckers where too dumb to get your kids educated without our over sight. You have to put them in this totally unbiased school, propaganda free, where they will be (un)educated in a way you had better not bitch about. It's not like we were going to give you the choice. "

Maybe parents would think twice before putting their children into a public school

If the education sector was totally liberalized, stupid schools like the Catholic one, would not get that much funding and would have an horrible reputation. They will, decades after decades, slowly disappear.

As religion vanishes from society.

[Eviliatopia]

Catholic schools, like basically any religious school, do not get Government funding, right?

That is not the case in Ireland.

Okay. That explains much of the affair, really.

[Ethel mermania]

Very Christian to do such a thing.

^ this,

but if it is legal to discriminate based on family status in Ireland (as per OP). its allowed.

[The Ancient and Orthodox Potato Church]

These things don't just happen in America, it seems.

THE OMBUDSMAN FOR Children Emily Logan has recommended that a school which refused entry to a pregnant girl apologise for the way she was treated.

The mixed Catholic ethos school in Munster was subject to an investigation by Emily Logan, after the girl and her mother filed a complaint to the ombudsman’s office, reports the Sunday Times.

The girl’s mother said that that her 16-year-old daughter was refused entry to the school based initially on the fact that she was pregnant, and subsequently because she had given birth and was a young single mother.

The girl had attended the school for an interview in 2009 and understood that she had been accepted after she was advised to get a uniform and books. Emily Logan’s report details that the girl’s parents felt the school should be informed of her pregnancy. The school principal then placed a call stating that the girl would not be accepted at the school because she was pregnant. When the teen’s mother wrote to the school the principal responded:

Your letter surprises me. A neighbour called at your request and stated that your daughter was pregnant. I was shocked and told her that I did not take in such girls. She conveyed the message to you.

The girl enrolled in another school and attended there until she went on maternity leave. After the birth of her baby she again attempted to enrol at ‘School A’ and again attended an interview and was advised to purchase the necessary uniform and books. However she said the following day she was contacted, this time by the school manager, and was told “I will not and do not accept single mothers in this school”.

When the office of the ombudsman contacted the school asking for information regarding its enrolment policy, complaints procedure and copies of communication with the family in question it received the following response from the school manager:

Neither am I obliged to have any other frills that you mention. This school is NOT* a haven for young pregnant people or for young mothers who, in particular, have been in two other post primary schools. The school has an uncompromising ethos and will not become a dumping ground for those rejected elsewhere.

Logan’s report notes that the girl had attended two previous schools, but did not settle in them and wished to attend School A because she had friends there and wanted to go to a school outside the city.

The office of the ombudsman also sought a meeting with representatives of the school and received the following communication from the school manager:

Do not try to blame this school for having a moral code. You have no* business coming down here to single us out – we are a Catholic school and shall remain so.

The ombudsman’s report states that the school’s admissions and enrolment policy in relation to this girl is of “serious concern”, and finds that the girl has been discriminated against based on her family status.

The girl and her family were also not advised of any complaints or appeals mechanism and the report indicated further concern at the school’s use of the word “frills’ in relation to a request for information about a complaints process.

Emily Logan has recommended an inspection of the school by the Department of Education. A 2007 Whole School Evaluation by the department noted the absence of clarity on a number of school policies. Concern has also been expressed that there appears to be an absence of a Board of Management at the school, or an advisory group to represent parents and staff.

The girl at the centre of the case said she was very upset by the incident and the she felt:

…put into a low category, that I was not good enough to be in his school. I felt ashamed and embarrassed that someone could make me feel this was for being a single young mother. I wouldn’t wish this feeling on anyone else, I was very emotional and stressed by it. I felt hurt and discriminated against as my child wouldn’t stop me having an education.

The girl’s mother said that the damage to her daughter’s self-esteem had been “immeasurable” and that the actions of the school had negatively impacted on her daughter’s motivation.

The ombudsman’s office has said it is not satisfied with the final response received from School A and will be “considering the steps available in this regard”.

Read Emily Logan’s report in full>[pdf]

*all emphasis placed is as per the report

Sauce.

tl;dr version: A young girl attempted to enrol in 'School A'. She appeared successful, but was rejected when she informed the school that she was pregnant. She attended another school, and tried School A again after having her child. Again she appeared successful, but was told that the school did not admit single mothers. Per Irish law, it is not legal to discriminate based on family status(among other things). Radio reports I've heard have quoted the principal as saying he had a duty to protect the honourable students at his school. I'll try to get the exact wording at the next bulletin. The school was not cooperative with the Ombudsman for Children, and doesn't appear to have a clear admittance policy, complaints procedure, or any kind of Board of Management or similar to represent staff and parents.

It's pretty fucking shameful behaviour, NSG, on the part of an ostensibly Catholic school, though hardly atypical of a certain type of jackass who uses their religion as grounds to treat others like shit. But hey, I'm sure Jesus would approve of turning children away from education . The idea that pregnant girls and single mothers would do some harm to other students is truly baffling. What, is she going to lactate someone to death? Clobber a teacher with a rattle? At least have the balls to admit that you're trying to punish her for not abiding by your personal morals.

I put it to you: Should schools be allowed to turn away prospective students because they are pregnant or single parents? I'm sure you can guess my answer.

This is pretty much par for the course for most Catholic schools in the country (despite being funded and staffed from the department most schools here in Ireland are Catholic, despite the country being secular). They may not be as open and brazen about it, but most schools are run along the same ideology, and it is getting worse.

The country's main teacher training college (Mary Immaculate in Limerick) has become increasingly doctrinaire over the last few years, teaching its students solely from a Catholic viewpoint, and being insistent on them following Catholic theology and doctrine. This attidute is passing through the primary schools, as with less places now being available for newly qualified teachers and the local parish priest being the school board chairman (and the bishop being patron) in 95% of primary schools it is the visibly catholic teachers who are increasingly being given teaching jobs in the state education system, and the schools are suffering for it.

I love my country to bits, but the way it is being run is shameful. The rulers try to impose a moralistic uniformity on everyone, while allowing those on the top to get away with massive tax evasion, and for years helped the church cover up the many crimes committed within its walls. It is a state for the rich and powerful which does everything to destroy and enfeeble the majority of its citizens.

[AiliailiA]

Private educational institutions should be able to accept or deny whomever they want. Public institutions on the other hand should accept all students; regardless of their physical or family status.

And the other side of that deal should be that private schools get no public funding. No tax breaks. They can run their school like a business, pay taxes on their profits and pay their local taxes for land use just like any other business. Nor do they get any kind of subsidy attached to individual students going there.

If they're going to play the "my place my rules" card they don't get a cent. They don't get one pence.

The State is burdened with the students who are hardest to educate, because it cannot turn them away from public schools. Why should the State give any assistance to schools which take the good students only ... the very students who would make public schools better?

[AiliailiA]

And over the gate of every public school it should say "The owners of this school have no right to deny you education. This Public School fulfills the ideal of Universal Education, even for assholes who don't appreciate it"

More like: "You are supposed to be the owners of this school, which a minority funded against your will with your own money. Said minority, to which you refer as " government "

No. Government represents the interests of the majority ... and if you don't think it does then run for office.

, has figured out that you fuckers where too dumb to get your kids educated without our over sight. You have to put them in this totally unbiased school, propaganda free, where they will be (un)educated in a way you had better not bitch about. It's not like we were going to give you the choice. "

Maybe parents would think twice before putting their children into a public school

If the education sector was totally liberalized, stupid schools like the Catholic one, would not get that much funding and would have an horrible reputation. They will, decades after decades, slowly disappear.

As religion vanishes from society.

And schooling too apparently.

[Eviliatopia]

And the other side of that deal should be that private schools get no public funding.

How do you even call them private if they do get public funding. What part of " private education " do you find hard to understand?

[Solidaarland]

Yeah, I may be agnostic, but I was under the impression that Jesus's message was all about, oh, I dunno, HELPING THE LESS FORTUNATE, REGARDLESS OF "SIN"? You know, "let him be the first to throw a stone", ect. But I guess I'm wrong...

Catholicism is so fucking hypocritical. You are clean based not on your conscience but your deeds. No wonder pro-catholic states have a hell lot of prostitutes.

About this? The schools have no right to break the law, so... shut down catholic schools.

[Unchecked Expansion]

More like: "You are supposed to be the owners of this school, which a minority funded against your will with your own money. Said minority, to which you refer as " government ", has figured out that you fuckers where too dumb to get your kids educated without our over sight. You have to put them in this totally unbiased school, propaganda free, where they will be (un)educated in a way you had better not bitch about. It's not like we were going to give you the choice. "

Apart from the fact that home schooling and private schools are legal, so it's not like there's no choice. Schools are not seething beds of pro-government propaganda, or at least not in the UK. Teachers are definitely not all government cheerleaders, so maybe you'd like to show some examples of 'propaganda'

[Eviliatopia]

No. Government represents the interests of the majority ...

lolnope. And even in the incredible case Government would live up to this ideal, fuck the majority. It does not have the right to force its beliefs on the minority.

And schooling too apparently.

Because the private sector can not provide schooling? There would be no demand for schooling if the Government steps out of education?
Also, the world's 50 best universities are 95% private ones.

[AiliailiA]

And the other side of that deal should be that private schools get no public funding.

How do you even call them private if they do get public funding. What part of " private education " do you find hard to understand?

Other posters in this thread have said that Catholic private schools in Ireland do receive public funding. They claim to live in Ireland.

Do you live in Ireland? Do you have any source to show that Catholic private schools in Ireland do NOT receive public funding?

If not, excuse me but I'll take their word over your "they're private so they're private funded" nonsense. As though words made reality.

[Viens]

No matter how you look at this it's discrimination, which is ridiculous in this day and age.

[Ratzloff]

These people who deny entry to schools because of things like pregnancy are what hinder the world from making educational progress. She will be working a less glamorous job in the future because she couldn't get a basic education because of her pregnancy, and in the end, are going make her the source of the blame. Yes, it's her fault for getting pregnant. However, it's the school's fault for not working with her to make sure that she would get an education. At least she's trying to better herself and work towards her future instead of dropping out. It's the school that's hindering her future.

[Eviliatopia]

Apart from the fact that home schooling and private schools are legal, so it's not like there's no choice.

This is not true in all countries. And some countries don't really have private schools.

Schools are not seething beds of pro-government propaganda, or at least not in the UK.

Annoying ideological bullshit does not have to be pro-government or anti-government to piss off a good chunk of parents, and pupils.

Teachers are definitely not all government cheerleaders

Teachers shouldn't be cheerleaders at all.

so maybe you'd like to show some examples of 'propaganda'

Seriously? How many teachers, whether leftwing or rightwing, try to indoctrinate their students? History lessons ( for example ) are particularly convenient for a teacher's biases.

I find it wrong that someone should be forced to pay for someone else's education any way. But being forced to pay so your children can be indoctrinated in a way that will anger you? That's repugnant.

[The Ancient and Orthodox Potato Church]

So let me get this straight, the school breaks the law and it's recommended that it apologize?

Catholic church is still above the law in this country. That is why the state decided to saddle itself with 90% of the costs of compensation for Clerical Sex Abuse about ten years ago.

[Eviliatopia]

Other posters in this thread have said that Catholic private schools in Ireland do receive public funding.

So they aren't private at all, and the Irish Government has not been separated from the church. That's more clear now.

[Unchecked Expansion]

Seriously? How many teachers, whether leftwing or rightwing, try to indoctrinate their students? History lessons ( for example ) are particularly convenient for a teacher's biases.

I find it wrong that someone should be forced to pay for someone else's education any way. But being forced to pay so your children can be indoctrinated in a way that will anger you? That's repugnant.

You've made big claims of indoctrination, but you haven't actually provided any evidence. Where's the propaganda?

[AiliailiA]

No. Government represents the interests of the majority ...

lolnope. And even in the incredible case Government would live up to this ideal, fuck the majority. It does not have the right to force its beliefs on the minority.

Of course, government should get out of the way and let the minority force its beliefs on the majority. That's so much better.

And schooling too apparently.

Because the private sector can not provide schooling? There would be no demand for schooling if the Government steps out of education?

There's a demand for schooling, and parents and charities would pay for some of that demand. But the principle of universal education is that every child deserves an education and nothing but the state can fulfill that. It's a massive leap of faith to think that charities would fill the gap between the ability of poor parents to pay for all of their child's education -- all parents, all children -- if government stopped paying.

I expect you'll now come with some Economic Libertarian bs about everyone being richer if government would get out of the way, and all I can say is: save your breath.

Also, the world's 50 best universities are 95% private ones.

Universities and schools are different things. In any case, I find that threadjack hard to believe. Source please!