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Abortion vs. Evolution

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Catan
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Abortion vs. Evolution

Postby Catan » Fri Apr 27, 2012 10:52 am

I want to ignore theologic arguments here. Evolution is the advancement of a species through beneficial genetic information caused by mutation and selected through competition with other individuals for mates. Does abortion weaken our species by killing babes with possible positive gentetic traits, or is it beneficial as mankind is taking his evolution into his own hands, and aborting babes with negative gentetic traits (like paralysis or autism)? I agree with the former.

Your opinions please, and again, please no arguments involving religion.

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Farnhamia
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Postby Farnhamia » Fri Apr 27, 2012 10:58 am

Catan wrote:I want to ignore theologic arguments here. Evolution is the advancement of a species through beneficial genetic information caused by mutation and selected through competition with other individuals for mates. Does abortion weaken our species by killing babes with possible positive gentetic traits, or is it beneficial as mankind is taking his evolution into his own hands, and aborting babes with negative gentetic traits (like paralysis or autism)? I agree with the former.

Your opinions please, and again, please no arguments involving religion.

You think abortion weakens humanity? I disagree, but neither do I agree with your second alternative. Abortion is a private matter, not public policy. I would oppose forced abortion.
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Socorra
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Postby Socorra » Fri Apr 27, 2012 10:58 am

A religion-free abortion thread is like a meat-free hamburger.
Last edited by Socorra on Fri Apr 27, 2012 10:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Yahkima
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Postby Yahkima » Fri Apr 27, 2012 10:58 am

Umm... unless you are aware of some specific allele group that is being aborted at a higher rate, it should have no effect on evolution.

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Khadgar
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Postby Khadgar » Fri Apr 27, 2012 11:00 am

Catan wrote:I want to ignore theologic arguments here. Evolution is the advancement of a species through beneficial genetic information caused by mutation and selected through competition with other individuals for mates. Does abortion weaken our species by killing babes with possible positive gentetic traits, or is it beneficial as mankind is taking his evolution into his own hands, and aborting babes with negative gentetic traits (like paralysis or autism)? I agree with the former.

Your opinions please, and again, please no arguments involving religion.



There are fewer babies being aborted than died of ... hell anything you can name practically a century ago. So no change.

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Ifreann
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Postby Ifreann » Fri Apr 27, 2012 11:00 am

Yahkima wrote:Umm... unless you are aware of some specific allele group that is being aborted at a higher rate, it should have no effect on evolution.

If anything, giving women better control over their reproduction will only help evolution.
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Dar Krumswick
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Postby Dar Krumswick » Fri Apr 27, 2012 11:03 am

It does not affect our evolution either way. The aborted fetuses, whether through human intervention or the upward of 15% of all pregnancies that abort themselves naturally, do not contribute their potential to the genetic pool for future generations.

D'uh. :palm:
Last edited by Dar Krumswick on Fri Apr 27, 2012 11:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

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L Ron Cupboard
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Postby L Ron Cupboard » Fri Apr 27, 2012 11:04 am

I suspect that antibiotics have rather more effect on human evolution than abortion.
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Farnhamia
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Postby Farnhamia » Fri Apr 27, 2012 11:05 am

Dar Krumswick wrote:It does not affect our evolution either way. The aborted fetuses, whether through human intervention or the upward of 15% of all pregnancies that abort themselves naturally, do not contribute their potential to the genetic pool for future generations.

I think that's his point, they are lost to the gene pool. What if that aborted "baby" was going to cure cancer and clean up pollution and find the unified general theory of everything?
Freedom ... or cake. ~ Ashmoria (RIP)
Make Earth Great Again: Stop Continental Drift!
And Jesus was a sailor when he walked upon the water ...
"Make yourself at home, Frank. Hit somebody." RIP Don Rickles
My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right. ~ Carl Schurz
<Sigh> NSG...where even the atheists are Augustinians. ~ The Archregimancy
Now the foot is on the other hand ~ Kannap
RIP Dyakovo

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Mavorpen
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Postby Mavorpen » Fri Apr 27, 2012 11:06 am

The fact we have technology and agriculture affects evolution more than abortion.
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Dar Krumswick
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Postby Dar Krumswick » Fri Apr 27, 2012 11:08 am

Farnhamia wrote:
Dar Krumswick wrote:It does not affect our evolution either way. The aborted fetuses, whether through human intervention or the upward of 15% of all pregnancies that abort themselves naturally, do not contribute their potential to the genetic pool for future generations.

I think that's his point, they are lost to the gene pool. What if that aborted "baby" was going to cure cancer and clean up pollution and find the unified general theory of everything?


If that is the point, it is a ridiculous one that can never be truly answered. What if the next miscarriage that occurs destroyed the next potential Hitler? Miscarriages/abortions have no effect whatsoever upon our gene pool. What are the potential effects? How do we know? Hitler, Einstein, we do not know. I am guessing the odds of actually birthing one or the other is similar to the odds of losing one or the other through miscarriage/abortion.

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Farnhamia
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Postby Farnhamia » Fri Apr 27, 2012 11:10 am

Dar Krumswick wrote:
Farnhamia wrote:I think that's his point, they are lost to the gene pool. What if that aborted "baby" was going to cure cancer and clean up pollution and find the unified general theory of everything?


If that is the point, it is a ridiculous one that can never be truly answered. What if the next miscarriage that occurs destroyed the next potential Hitler? Miscarriages/abortions have no effect whatsoever upon our gene pool. What are the potential effects? How do we know? Hitler, Einstein, we do not know. I am guessing the odds of actually birthing one or the other is similar to the odds of losing one or the other through miscarriage/abortion.

I quite agree, it's an absurd point.
Freedom ... or cake. ~ Ashmoria (RIP)
Make Earth Great Again: Stop Continental Drift!
And Jesus was a sailor when he walked upon the water ...
"Make yourself at home, Frank. Hit somebody." RIP Don Rickles
My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right. ~ Carl Schurz
<Sigh> NSG...where even the atheists are Augustinians. ~ The Archregimancy
Now the foot is on the other hand ~ Kannap
RIP Dyakovo

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Catan
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Ex-Nation

Postby Catan » Fri Apr 27, 2012 11:15 am

To clarify, they may have positive genes, and it will reduce the gene pool by limiting the number of individuals in the speices. But with a population of 7 Billion, I agree that would not make much of an impact. It does still have a potentially negative effect.

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Free Soviets
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Postby Free Soviets » Fri Apr 27, 2012 11:16 am

mutations are random. so positive and negative mutations happen with the exact same regularity among the aborted and non-aborted. unless we are specifically aborting fetuses with particular traits, the selective effect should be negligible. the only traits we will seriously use for abortion decisions in any systematic way all involve terrible genetic diseases. you can do the math.
Last edited by Free Soviets on Fri Apr 27, 2012 11:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Farnhamia
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Postby Farnhamia » Fri Apr 27, 2012 11:16 am

Catan wrote:To clarify, they may have positive genes, and it will reduce the gene pool by limiting the number of individuals in the speices. But with a population of 7 Billion, I agree that would not make much of an impact. It does still have a potentially negative effect.

THe potential is small enough to be negligible.
Freedom ... or cake. ~ Ashmoria (RIP)
Make Earth Great Again: Stop Continental Drift!
And Jesus was a sailor when he walked upon the water ...
"Make yourself at home, Frank. Hit somebody." RIP Don Rickles
My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right. ~ Carl Schurz
<Sigh> NSG...where even the atheists are Augustinians. ~ The Archregimancy
Now the foot is on the other hand ~ Kannap
RIP Dyakovo

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L Ron Cupboard
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Postby L Ron Cupboard » Fri Apr 27, 2012 11:20 am

Though taking the extended phenotype idea to a ridiculous extreme, if the people who have abortions are the ones that have a genetic propensity to agree with abortion, eventually...
A leopard in every home, you know it makes sense.

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Former Wellboneland
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Postby Former Wellboneland » Fri Apr 27, 2012 11:25 am

So to you I should have been aborted?
Not funny.
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Ifreann
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Postby Ifreann » Fri Apr 27, 2012 11:26 am

Farnhamia wrote:
Dar Krumswick wrote:It does not affect our evolution either way. The aborted fetuses, whether through human intervention or the upward of 15% of all pregnancies that abort themselves naturally, do not contribute their potential to the genetic pool for future generations.

I think that's his point, they are lost to the gene pool. What if that aborted "baby" was going to cure cancer and clean up pollution and find the unified general theory of everything?

If they were so smart, why didn't they escape abortion?
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Former Wellboneland
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Postby Former Wellboneland » Fri Apr 27, 2012 11:28 am

Ifreann wrote:
Farnhamia wrote:I think that's his point, they are lost to the gene pool. What if that aborted "baby" was going to cure cancer and clean up pollution and find the unified general theory of everything?

If they were so smart, why didn't they escape abortion?

Because they were a fetus.
Formerly Wellboneland, add 1982 posts.
I use the stats of my old nation. I have 2 billion people and 4 million soldiers.
Tulija wrote:Immature; good comic relief.
Our Tech Level is MT, and call us Wellboneland.
Our military

I am not a likable person at first, but it always comes back to this.
My Little Nutella
Bacon Tacos with Alekcandor!
99% of our people ICly act like this.
WE ARE NOT PONYISTS OMG IF YOU CALL US PONIES ONE MORE TIME...

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Ifreann
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Postby Ifreann » Fri Apr 27, 2012 11:28 am

Former Wellboneland wrote:
Ifreann wrote:If they were so smart, why didn't they escape abortion?

Because they were a fetus.

Bah, that's no excuse.
Mistake Not My Current State Of Joshing Gentle Banter For The Awesome And Terrible Majesty Of The Towering Seas Of Snark That Are Themselves The Mere Milquetoast Shallows Fringing My Vast Oceans Of Sarcasm
He/Him

Dangerous this Jack o' Hearts.
With his kiss
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starts

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Former Wellboneland
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Postby Former Wellboneland » Fri Apr 27, 2012 11:29 am

Ifreann wrote:
Former Wellboneland wrote:Because they were a fetus.

Bah, that's no excuse.

Even if the fetus could escape death it would be called a failed abortion and that usually ends in the child being retarded.
Formerly Wellboneland, add 1982 posts.
I use the stats of my old nation. I have 2 billion people and 4 million soldiers.
Tulija wrote:Immature; good comic relief.
Our Tech Level is MT, and call us Wellboneland.
Our military

I am not a likable person at first, but it always comes back to this.
My Little Nutella
Bacon Tacos with Alekcandor!
99% of our people ICly act like this.
WE ARE NOT PONYISTS OMG IF YOU CALL US PONIES ONE MORE TIME...

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Ifreann
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Postby Ifreann » Fri Apr 27, 2012 11:34 am

Former Wellboneland wrote:
Ifreann wrote:Bah, that's no excuse.

Even if the fetus could escape death it would be called a failed abortion and that usually ends in the child being retarded.

Then they wouldn't develop a unified theory of physics, would they?
Mistake Not My Current State Of Joshing Gentle Banter For The Awesome And Terrible Majesty Of The Towering Seas Of Snark That Are Themselves The Mere Milquetoast Shallows Fringing My Vast Oceans Of Sarcasm
He/Him

Dangerous this Jack o' Hearts.
With his kiss
the riot
starts

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Former Wellboneland
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Postby Former Wellboneland » Fri Apr 27, 2012 11:36 am

Ifreann wrote:
Former Wellboneland wrote:Even if the fetus could escape death it would be called a failed abortion and that usually ends in the child being retarded.

Then they wouldn't develop a unified theory of physics, would they?

So it is a stupid idea to abort a child with potential unless the mother needs the baby removed.
Formerly Wellboneland, add 1982 posts.
I use the stats of my old nation. I have 2 billion people and 4 million soldiers.
Tulija wrote:Immature; good comic relief.
Our Tech Level is MT, and call us Wellboneland.
Our military

I am not a likable person at first, but it always comes back to this.
My Little Nutella
Bacon Tacos with Alekcandor!
99% of our people ICly act like this.
WE ARE NOT PONYISTS OMG IF YOU CALL US PONIES ONE MORE TIME...

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Ifreann
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Ifreann » Fri Apr 27, 2012 11:39 am

Former Wellboneland wrote:
Ifreann wrote:Then they wouldn't develop a unified theory of physics, would they?

So it is a stupid idea to abort a child with potential unless the mother needs the baby removed.

Whether it's a stupid idea or not really doesn't matter.
Mistake Not My Current State Of Joshing Gentle Banter For The Awesome And Terrible Majesty Of The Towering Seas Of Snark That Are Themselves The Mere Milquetoast Shallows Fringing My Vast Oceans Of Sarcasm
He/Him

Dangerous this Jack o' Hearts.
With his kiss
the riot
starts

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Free Soviets
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Postby Free Soviets » Fri Apr 27, 2012 11:41 am

Ifreann wrote:
Farnhamia wrote:I think that's his point, they are lost to the gene pool. What if that aborted "baby" was going to cure cancer and clean up pollution and find the unified general theory of everything?

If they were so smart, why didn't they escape abortion?

this brings up a good point. if we attempted to abort every fetus, that would be a strong selective pressure for the early development of cunning and agility and immunity to poisons. new social policy goal!

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