The Slavic Thread!

[Camelza]

Hej Slaveni!
A (propably offensive, sorry to any Ukrainians out there) question; Are Ukrainians practically southern Russians who are really pissed-off with their northern brothers, or are they a Russified nationality of different origins?

[EUstan]

...

Ok, now say if a Georgian nationalist would assasin Putin, and the Georgian refused to cooperate, and if Russia attacks Georgia.... You would be on the side of Gerogia?

[EUstan]

Hej Slaveni!
A (propably offensive, sorry to any Ukrainians out there) question; Are Ukrainians practically southern Russians who are really pissed-off with their northern brothers, or are they a Russified nationality of different origins?

Greater Russian Orthodox fascist are claiming they are a new nation, but everything is doubtfull what they are claiming.

[Pretty Awesome Persons]

When I was in high school and we got to WWI everybody would be like, "AH... DA SERBS STARTED THE WAR. ERMMAGERD AM I RIGHT, TEACHERSIR?" Then I would have the one asshole who would be like, "Alisa is Serbian, her ancestors started WWI!" Then I would get pissed off and try to tell them about the Black Hand, the Austrian ultimatum, the multiple Serbian warnings, the German support of the Austrians, and the hatred and would lose them about halfway through.

Then, God forbid when we talked about Kosovo!

Well, yes they started WWI. I dont see what is here false.

The Austrian ultimatum was that the two governments make an investigation in Serbia, it was a very reasonable offer. But Pašić and his crew of long-beard mountain racists rejected it, and the rest is history.

idk about you, but here in the States we learn that the ultimatum was unfair. Most (educated) scholars agree that the Archiduke's death was nothing more than a scapegoat of sorts, Europe was headed to war anyway.

I actually sympathize with Maximilian. He supported the liberals and for that reason the conservatives (who brought him over) later betrayed him. France also refused to back him up. His last words were "May my blood which is about to be shed, be for the good of the country. Viva Mexico, viva la independencia!"
It's strange because although I identify as a libertarian, I would have no problems with a monarchy. As long as the guy/girl isn't crazy. And is Mexican (in Mexico's case). Democracy is for suckers.

дуго живети ћирилица абецеда!

No Serbian monarchs of Mexico while you are around then? xD

Well, at least Serbia (Yugoslavia) showed an appreciation for our culture

[Risottia]

The Austrian ultimatum was a very reasonable offer.

The Austrian ultimatum looked a lot like the first Rambouillet "offer" to Yugoslavia...
...guess what, in both cases, the Serbs and the Yugo fought and got better conditions in the end.

[Risottia]

Hej Slaveni!
A (propably offensive, sorry to any Ukrainians out there) question; Are Ukrainians practically southern Russians who are really pissed-off with their northern brothers, or are they a Russified nationality of different origins?

Southern Russians, basically.
And not every Ukrainian is pissed off at their northern brethren.

Anyway, if their majority want to be a country of their own, fine by me. As long as they don't start a serious mess, ofc. We don't need more wars in Europe.

[Shofercia]

...

Ok, now say if a Georgian nationalist would assasin Putin, and the Georgian refused to cooperate, and if Russia attacks Georgia.... You would be on the side of Gerogia?

Did it ever occur to you that I'm capable of not taking sides? First, the Archduke wasn't the Austrian leader. Second, then it'd be a fight between the secret services of both countries, and there'd be no need to drag the rest of Europe into it.

[Shofercia]

The "reasonable" offer, reasonable according to EUstan, unrealistic demands according to most people in the rest of the World:

The Royal Serbian Government shall further undertake:

(1) To suppress any publication which incites to hatred and contempt of the Austro-Hungarian Monarchy and the general tendency of which is directed against its territorial integrity;

(2) To dissolve immediately the society styled "Narodna Odbrana," to confiscate all its means of propaganda, and to proceed in the same manner against other societies and their branches in Serbia which engage in propaganda against the Austro-Hungarian Monarchy. The Royal Government shall take the necessary measures to prevent the societies dissolved from continuing their activity under another name and form;

(3) To eliminate without delay from public instruction in Serbia, both as regards the teaching body and also as regards the methods of instruction, everything that serves, or might serve, to foment the propaganda against Austria-Hungary;

(4) To remove from the military service, and from the administration in general, all officers and functionaries guilty of propaganda against the Austro-Hungarian Monarchy whose names and deeds the Austro-Hungarian Government reserve to themselves the right of communicating to the Royal Government;

(5) To accept the collaboration in Serbia of representatives of the Austro-Hungarian Government for the suppression of the subversive movement directed against the territorial integrity of the Monarchy;

(6) To take judicial proceedings against accessories to the plot of the 28th of June who are on Serbian territory; delegates of the Austro-Hungarian Government will take part in the investigation relating thereto;

(7) To proceed without delay to the arrest of Major Voija Tankositch and of the individual named Milan Ciganovitch, a Serbian State employee, who have been compromised by the results of the magisterial inquiry at Serajevo;

(8) To prevent by effective measures the cooperation of the Serbian authorities in the illicit traffic in arms and explosives across the frontier, to dismiss and punish severely the officials of the frontier service at Shabatz Loznica guilty of having assisted the perpetrators of the Serajevo crime by facilitating their passage across the frontier;

(9) To furnish the Imperial and Royal Government with explanations regarding the unjustifiable utterances of high Serbian officials, both in Serbia and abroad, who, notwithstanding their official position, have not hesitated since the crime of the 28th of June to express themselves in interviews in terms of hostility to the Austro-Hungarian Government; and, finally,

(10) To notify the Imperial and Royal Government without delay of the execution of the measures comprised under the preceding heads.
The Austro-Hungarian Government expect the reply of the Royal Government at the latest by 5 o'clock on Saturday evening the 25th of July.

[Great Kleomentia]

Then I would get pissed off and try to tell them about the Black Hand, the Austrian ultimatum, the multiple Serbian warnings, the German support of the Austrians, and the hatred and would lose them about halfway through.

I'm glad that the Чрна Рука was mentioned here. I;d like to ask all resident serbs (+ all the people "in the theme"), what do you think about this organisation?

Namely:
1) What so you think was the ultimate political goal of the Black Hand members? Were they nationalist, monarchist, socialist or some sort of amalgamation of such views?

2) The Black Hand's role in the overthroving of Obrenović dynasty. Was it (ultimately) for better or for worse?

3) Are there any books on Black/White hand organisations and their fate?

1.They were monarchist, and im neutral at their goal.

2. They were the ones who eliminated the dynasty. The way they did it was barbaric and unfit for Serbian oficers, but in the long run it was for the best.

3. Probably numerous, none that i can recall by name.

[Lyttenburgh]

Hej Slaveni!
A (propably offensive, sorry to any Ukrainians out there) question; Are Ukrainians practically southern Russians who are really pissed-off with their northern brothers, or are they a Russified nationality of different origins?

It's... really complicted.

Up until late 13th centaury both eastern Slavs around Kiev, Chernigov, Voliniya and their kindred in Novgorod, Vladimir and Murom were part of the one political cultural and ethnical entiety - the so called "Feudally dis-united Rus". But by the late 13th centaury the eastern part became dependant and paid tribute to the Mongolian Golden Horde, while western part more or less peacefully was absorbed by a fledgling (and pagan) Grand Duchy of Lithuania (about 8/10 of this duchy constituted former Rus territory). Lithuanians, as often the case with the pagans, were tolerant of their new subjects and subjects repaid them in loyalty.

Flash forward several decades - in the East new and ambitious Moscow Princedom not only survives, but prosper and makes bid to be a unifier of all Eastern lands from the Mongol yoke, while Grand Duke of Lithuania accepts Catholicism and marries polish princess. Still - orthodox population is tolerated and treated well. There is no "Iron Curtain" between two parts of former Kievan Grand Princedom. E.G. - an accomplished military commander Bobrok of Volhynia, who took crucial part in the great Battle of Kulikovo in 1380 on the prince Dmitriy's side (while his nominal sovereign Jogáila advanced with all his army towards Muscovy, but, after receiving the news of russian's victory, immediately initiated protocol "gtfo").

The more Lithuanian nobility became integrated (culturally and through marriages) with their polish counterparts, the fewer rights and privileges remained for the orthodox Russian nobles and commoners. The last time the three of them were truly united in one cause was the battle of Grunewald (1410) in which polish, Lithuanian and eastern Russians won a victory over Teutonic order.

In th 15th centaury the conditions for orthodox Russian subjects of the Great Duchy of Lithuania (more and more under the influence of catholic Poland, and less and less tolerant to it's once loyal and devout subjects) became not nice. Not nice enough, that when Grand Prince of Moscowy (and Vladimir, and Ryazan, and etc.) and Russia Ivan III the Great started a series of wars with Lithuania, a large number of boyars and princelings among the eastern lords of Lithuania changed sides and swore an oath of fealty to the Prince Ivan. Earlier, in the beginning of 15th centaury, a certain former Lithuanian lord Patrikej Narimantaitich Galitzine became a vassal of prince Vasiiy I, that's kickstarting one of the most illustrious noble dynasties in the history of Russia.

By the beginning of 16th centaury Russian orthodox subjects of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania lost practically all of their national elite (i.e. nobility) either to the fast growing Grand Princedom (later - Czardom) of Muscowy, where they became vassals of the orthodox ruler, or to Polish-Lithuanian no-quite-Commonwealth-but-wait-any-minute, by converting to catholicism. The rest of former Grand Princedom of Rus lands with the center in Kiev became a bitter battleground between Russia and Polish-Lithuania for the next 250 years. And meanwhile, while powers that be fought for the legacy of Old Rus, muslim Crimean tatars (vassals of Ottoman Empire) raided, burned, pillaged and took slaves from the southern frontier of both of these Eastern European powers.

It was during this time, that both ukranian nation and cossack hosts were taking their shape. But that's another story...

P.S.

Arrgh. me likes yer shanties! Huzzah!

[Great Kleomentia]

Bosnia is Serbian land and Austria illegally annexed it and took control to cock block Serbia simply because they didn't want it to become a good country.

No, its not Serbian land as the majority of Bosnian inhabitans did not want to join Serbia.

Bosnia was first an Ottoman province. Than in 1878 A-H got the right to occupied it, but remained de iure Ottoman province and than in 1908 it gor de iure annexed by A-H. Serbia had no claim on it, and even at first it complained about being under Ottoman Empire.

Even the Young Turks protested because of the annexation.

"Don't visit, you will probably got shot." and you do it anyways... What kind of idiot are you?

And again, he was the head a state. Hearing to threats of an ambasador is not his job especially as that ambasador has nothing to do with Bosnia. also source for the "warningr".

The whole ultimatum was an excuse for trying to crush Serbia because Serbia's independence encouraged the minorities within the Austro-Hungarian Empire to rise up and rebel and try to become independent.

This is a white supramist and religious bigoted myth. I would rather ignore it.

By the way, the document that I showed is the real ultimatum from 1914, and here is the source that I copied and pasted from. You can read it word for word: http://www.firstworldwar.com/source/aus ... imatum.htm

Did you actually read all the demands?

Hahahahahahahaha....You actually believe Bosnia belongs to the Turks? First of all, Bosnia existed far before the Turks ever crossed to Asia minor. It was a medieval Serbian nation locate south of the Bosnia river and west of the Drina river. Then it got sucked into Dusans empire, then it gained independence and became a kingdom(the king of Bosnia also bore the title "King of Serbia"). And only centuries after its name was first mentioned did it get sucked into the Ottoman empire. So you guys really have no claim on it. At all. On the other hand, seeing how Bosnia was Serbian land and how Bosniaks and Serbs are the same people. Serbia has a claim. So stop spilling bullshit on subjects you know nothing about. If your gonna be a nationalist at least educate yourself properly.

[Bolkania]

EUstan is making himself look like an ignorant moron in this thread.

[Camelza]

Hej Slaveni!
A (propably offensive, sorry to any Ukrainians out there) question; Are Ukrainians practically southern Russians who are really pissed-off with their northern brothers, or are they a Russified nationality of different origins?

Southern Russians, basically.
And not every Ukrainian is pissed off at their northern brethren.

Of course, we haven't invented a mechanism for national hiveminds to be possible ...yet.

Anyway, if their majority want to be a country of their own, fine by me. As long as they don't start a serious mess, ofc. We don't need more wars in Europe.

Well, Ukraine is already in a similar kind of mess, partly due to that reason.

Hej Slaveni!
A (propably offensive, sorry to any Ukrainians out there) question; Are Ukrainians practically southern Russians who are really pissed-off with their northern brothers, or are they a Russified nationality of different origins?

It's... really complicted.

Up until late 13th centaury both eastern Slavs around Kiev, Chernigov, Voliniya and their kindred in Novgorod, Vladimir and Murom were part of the one political cultural and ethnical entiety - the so called "Feudally dis-united Rus". But by the late 13th centaury the eastern part became dependant and paid tribute to the Mongolian Golden Horde, while western part more or less peacefully was absorbed by a fledgling (and pagan) Grand Duchy of Lithuania (about 8/10 of this duchy constituted former Rus territory). Lithuanians, as often the case with the pagans, were tolerant of their new subjects and subjects repaid them in loyalty.

Flash forward several decades - in the East new and ambitious Moscow Princedom not only survives, but prosper and makes bid to be a unifier of all Eastern lands under Mongol yoke, while Grand Duke of Lithuania accepts Catholicism and marries polish princess. Still - orthodox population is tolerated and treated well. There is no "Iron Curtain" between two parts of former Kievan Grand Princedom. E.G. - an accomplished military commander Bobrok of Volhynia, who take crucial part in the great Battle of Kulikovo in 1380 on the prince Dmitriy's side (while his nominal sovereign Jogáila advanced with all his army towards Muscovy, but, after receiving the news of russian's victory, immediately initiated protocol "gtfo").

The more Lithuanian nobility became integrated (culturally and through marriages) with their polish counterparts, the fewer rights and privileges remained for the orthodox Russian nobles and commoners. The last time the three of them were truly united in one cause was the battle of Grunewald (1410) in which polish, Lithuanian and eastern Russians won a victory over Teutonic order.

In th 15th centaury the conditions for orthodox Russian subjects of the Great Duchy of Lithuania (more and more under the influence of catholic Poland, and less and less tolerant to it's once loyal and devout subjects) became not nice. Not nice enough, that when Grand Prince of Moscowy (and Vladimir, and Ryazan, and etc.) and Russia Ivan III the Great started a series of wars with Lithuania, a large number of boyars and princelings among the eastern lords of Lithuania changed sides and swore an oath of fealty to the Prince Ivan. Earlier, in the beginning of 15th centaury, a certain former Lithuanian lord Patrikej Narimantaitich Galitzine became a vassal of prince Vasiiy I, that's kickstarting one of the most illustrious noble dynasties in the history of Russia.

By the beginning of 16th centaury Russian orthodox subjects of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania lost practically all of their national elite (i.e. nobility) either to the fast growing Grand Princedom (later - Czardom) of Muscowy, where they became vassals of the orthodox ruler, or to Polish-Lithuanian no-quite-Commonwealth-but-wait-any-minute, by converting to catholicism. The rest of former Grand Princedom of Rus lands with the center in Kiev became a bitter battleground between Russia and Polish-Lithuania for the next 250 years. And meanwhile, while powers that be fought for the legacy of Old Rus, muslim Crimean tatars (vassals of Ottoman Empire) raided, burned, pillaged and took slaves from the southern frontier of both of these Eastern European powers.

It was during this time, that both ukranian nation and cossack hosts were taking their shape. But that's another story...

Quite interesting, so basically Ukraine due to its rule by Lithuania was more mixed culturally than their Muscovite brethren and thus developed different traits, differating them culturally from what we know call Russia. Plus, the bitter conflicts over Ukraine might have left scars on the people of the region, making them less likely to associate with any of the two countries.
I'd also like to know if Ukrainians were treated equally under modern Imperial Russia ...or even if they were considered a different people back then.

P.S.

Arrgh. me likes yer shanties! Huzzah!

Aye, shanties are the best think after wenches 'n booty.

[Lyttenburgh]

Quite interesting, so basically Ukraine due to its rule by Lithuania was more mixed culturally than their Muscovite brethren and thus developed different traits, differating them culturally from what we know call Russia. Plus, the bitter conflicts over Ukraine might have left scars on the people of the region, making them less likely to associate with any of the two countries.
I'd also like to know if Ukrainians were treated equally under modern Imperial Russia ...or even if they were considered a different people back then.

Right now I don't have all my books and sources to make a big accurate and interesting post. So, below is just my personal IMHO

After orthodox subjects of Poland-Lithuania both became the primary target of tatar raids, a stomping ground for numerous conflicts between Moscow and Vilno/Krakow, plus total lack of national elite due to the aforementioned facts, they adopted many traits of cossaks. Cossaks during this period (16-17th centauries) were truly "people of frontier". They had a form of democracy - cossaks "krug", i.e. circle, where all cossaks decided important issues of the whole Host, like election of ataman (chief of particular warband) or hetman (chief over chiefs), or whom attack next. If you like it, then yes - not so dissimilar to pirates. They lived literally on the edge (kray, край in russian) of the civilized world, so their land became known as U-krayna ("a [land] near edge").

Meanwhile, in the late 16th centaury Poland-Lithuania transformed into more or less united realm of Rzecz Pospolita (meaning, ironically enough, a "Republic"). Thanks’ partially to a dynastic crysis, a total (but faaaaabulous!) douchebag Anry Valois (future Henry III the last Valois king of France) Poland-Lithuania got itself a) A precedent of elective monarchy b) A tendency of growing power of local feudal lords (magnates), who in time became so powerful, that the king now was just first among equals. If Poland-Lithuania was a "Republic", it was a "Banana Republic" one. Magnates enriched themselves on grain export. The most bountiful soil was in the southern parts of the real - in Ukraine. The magnate, who control grain production here would become richer than king (sadly, true). The only condition - the grain MUST FLOW! No matter th cost. The fact, that this territories were populated by orthodox commoners, but ruled by catholic nobles, who delegated estates running (noble pans and panis had more pressing issues - like the latest french fashions!) and the tithe collecting to the Jews made things VERY complicated. Orthodox peasants were serf of their polish-lithuanian masters and their terms of serfdom were even more brutal, than in Russia at that time (sadly, but again true). As their brethren in Russia they protested this brutal conditions by running away and joining "free people" - cossacks.

Oh, and free people they were - to the point of being extremely egoistical and mercenary. In theory, their host was a bulwark, a first line of defense on the way of marauding tatars. Well, in reality it was not always the case. They defiantly weren't some kind of "holy warriors" battling muslim threat. As always in history, the situation was really complicated. E.G. 1: a lucky Crimean warlord after one of his raids brings back home beautiful slavian girl, makes her his concubine, she produces him long awaited son and he marries her. Later, hist son goes on the string of successful raids, captures a lot of slaves, among them - a beautiful slavian girls, fells in love, makes her his concubine, she gives birth to the son, etc, etc. E.G. 2: Cossacs raid (just for lulz and plunder (a raid for zipuni, поход за зипунами) or in retaliation the Wild Plain of tatars. They also captures a lot of prisoners, to exchange for their compatriots in the tatar slavery (or for selling to Turks avoiding middlemen - tatars). One particular tatar girls catches the eye of young cossack, he takes her as concubine, she gives hem a son, he marries her... Ok, now you got the picture. This situation was absolutely normal.

Cossack were a "border guard" of Polish-Lithuaninan southern border. They had autonomy, the right to elect their own leaders. In exchange central government supplied them with provision, arms, gunpowder and shot. Well, not all - only "registered" cossaks, who were registered in "Registry" (Reyestrovi kozaky, реестровые козаки). They were semi-elite of cossak host, while all the others had to invent ways to procure arms and ammo - like turning mercenary or bandit.

This "masterless" culture of cossaks, their virtual independence while living on the edge of civilized world and mercenary attitude towards any master in many ways shaped the Ukrainian mentality. Bogdan Khmelnytsky is known both in Russia and Ukraine as the leader of the successful cossack uprising, that managed for the first time to threw away the Polish yoke over Ukrainian lands. In the West he is known only for his epic level pogroms against the Jews. Also, his uprising was successful due to the 2 major factors a) Direct help from Khan of Crimean tatars b) The death of King Vladyslav of Poland and the resulting interregnum. After a couple of years, it became obvious that just on their own (after plundering, slave taking and burning tatars returned home) Ukraine can not survive. So the question was - whom to choose as a sovereign and protector? It wasn't as easy and clear-cut as often soviet (and russian) historiography paints the situation. The variants were 1) Catholic Poland (again!) that would compromise with cossacks, stop religious persecution and grant more autonomy plus some money/ammo/provision extra bonus would be nice 2) Protestants Sweden - a rising power at that time, more or less victorious after 30-years war, also - it's so far away, that just can't influence Ukraine inner policy directly 3) Muslim Ottoman Empire. Why all this clashes with tatars, when you can have a common master? Also - at that time Moldavia (a christian princedom) was a vassal of Turks and they for sure didn't suffer so much (cossacks, apparently either didn't know, or didn’t care about the sitiation in Serbia or Bulgaria 4) Orthodox Czar of Russia. Personally, Czar Alexi I (aka "The Quietest One") wanted Ukrainian cossaks as his subjects like a hole in the head - he already had very restive and unruly Don cossaks. Just a few years ago there were a series of major revolts in his realm. Treasury, as always in Russia, was empty. Ukrainian cossaks weren't enthusiastic either. They had their own vey independent Mitropolit of Kiev, as their spiritual leader, and were against any attempts to undermine their autonomy - especially in the spiritual matters.

Finally, atamans of cossacks chose Russia. But this moment of choosing between - Pereyaslavl Rada - is a fine historical example of the future modus operandi of the Ukranian elite. Instead of choosing future for their own country, they would opportunistically choose between some foreign candidates, finally choosing the one with the best terms, but will always have a betrayal as an option...

(but that's another story...)


P.S.


Arrgh! We in Russia we have some nice shanty bands! “Trebouchet”

[Camelza]

Quite interesting, so basically Ukraine due to its rule by Lithuania was more mixed culturally than their Muscovite brethren and thus developed different traits, differating them culturally from what we know call Russia. Plus, the bitter conflicts over Ukraine might have left scars on the people of the region, making them less likely to associate with any of the two countries.
I'd also like to know if Ukrainians were treated equally under modern Imperial Russia ...or even if they were considered a different people back then.

Right now I don't have al my books and sources to make a big accurate and interesting post. So, below is just my personal IMHO

After orthodox subjects of Poland-Lithuania both became the primary target of tatar raids, a stomping ground for numerous conflicts between Moscow and Vilno/Krakow, plus total lack of national elite due to the aforementioned facts, they adopted many traits of cossaks. Cossaks during this period (16-17th centauries) were truly "people of frontier". They had a form of democracy - cossaks "krug", i.e. circle, where all cossaks decided important issues of the whole Host, like election of ataman (chief of particular warband) or hetman (chief over chiefs), or whom attack next. If you like it, then yes - not so dissimilar to pirates. They lived literally on the edge (kray, край in russian) of the civilized world, so their land became known as U-krayna ("a [land] near edge").

Meanwhile, in the late 16th centaury Poland-Lithuania transformed into more or less united realm of Rzecz Pospolita (meaning, ironically enough, a "Republic"). Thanks’ partially to a dynastic crysis, a total (but faaaaabulous!) douchebag Anry Valois (future Henry III the last Valois king of France) Poland-Lithuania got itself a) A precedent of elective monarchy b) A tendency of growing power of local feudal lords (magnates), who in time became so powerful, that the king now was just first among equals. If Poland-Lithuania was a "Republic", it was a "Banana Republic" one. Magnates enriched themselves on grain export. The most bountiful soil was in the southern parts of the real - in Ukraine. The magnate, who control grain production here would become richer than king (sadly, true). The only condition - the grain MUST FLOW! No matter th cost. The fact, that this territories were populated by orthodox commoners, but ruled by catholic nobles, who delegated estates running (noble pans and panis had more pressing issues - like the latest french fashions!) and the tithe collecting to the Jews made things VERY complicated. Orthodox peasants were serf of their polish-lithuanian masters and their terms of serfdom were even more brutal, than in Russia at that time (sadly, but again true). As their brethren in Russia they protested this brutal conditions by running away and joining "free people" - cossacks.

Oh, and free people they were - to the point of being extremely egoistical and mercenary. In theory, their host was a bulwark, a first line of defense on the way of marauding tatars. Well, in reality it was not always the case. They defiantly weren't some kind of "holy warriors" battling muslim threat. As always in history, the situation was really complicated. E.G. 1: a lucky Crimean warlord after one of his raids brings back home beautiful slavian girl, makes her his concubine, she produces him long awaited son and he marries her. Later, hist son goes on the string of successful raids, captures a lot of slaves, among them - a beautiful slavian girls, fells in love, makes her his concubine, she gives birth to the son, etc, etc. E.G. 2: Cossacs raid (just for lulz and plunder (a raid for zipuni, поход за зипунами) or in retaliation the Wild Plain of tatars. They also captures a lot of prisoners, to exchange for their compatriots in the tatar slavery (or for selling to Turks avoiding middlemen - tatars). One particular tatar girls catches the eye of young cossack, he takes her as concubine, she gives hem a son, he marries her... Ok, now you got the picture. This situation was absolutely normal.

Cossack were a "border guard" of Polish-Lithuaninan southern border. They had autonomy, the right to elect their own leaders. In exchange central government supplied them with provision, arms, gunpowder and shot. Well, not all - only "registered" cossaks, who were registered in "Registry" (Reyestrovi kozaky, реестровые козаки). They were semi-elite of cossak host, while all the others had to invent ways to procure arms and ammo - like turning mercenary or bandit.

This "masterless" culture of cossaks, their virtual independence while living on the edge of civilized world and mercenary attitude towards any master in many ways shaped the Ukrainian mentality. Bogdan Khmelnytsky is known both in Russia and Ukraine as the leader of the successful cossack uprising, that managed for the first time to threw away the Polish yoke over Ukrainian lands. In the West he is known only for his epic level pogroms against the Jews. Also, his uprising was successful due to the 2 major factors a) Direct help from Khan of Crimean tatars b) The death of King Vladyslav of Poland and the resulting interregnum. After a couple of years, it became obvious that just on their own (after plundering, slave taking and burning tatars returned home) Ukraine can not survive. So the question was - whom to choose as a sovereign and protector? It wasn't as easy and clear-cut as often soviet (and russian) historiography paints the situation. The variants were 1) Catholic Poland (again!) that would compromise with cossacks, stop religious persecution and grant more autonomy plus some money/ammo/provision extra bonus would be nice 2) Protestants Sweden - a rising power at that time, more or less victorious after 30-years war, also - it's so far away, that just can't influence Ukraine inner policy directly 3) Muslim Ottoman Empire. Why all this clashes with tatars, when you can have a common master? Also - at that time Moldavia (a christian princedom) was a vassal of Turks and they for sure didn't suffer so much (cossacks, apparently either didn't know, or didn’t care about the sitiation in Serbia or Bulgaria 4) Orthodox Czar of Russia. Personally, Czar Alexi I (aka "The Quietest One") wanted Ukrainian cossaks as his subjects like a hole in the head - he already had very restive and unruly Don cossaks. Just a few years ago there were a series of major revolts in his realm. Treasury, as always in Russia, was empty. Ukrainian cossaks weren't enthusiastic either. They had their own vey independent Mitropolit of Kiev, as their spiritual leader, and were against any attempts to undermine their autonomy - especially in the spiritual matters.

Finally, atamans of cossacks chose Russia. But this moment of choosing between - Pereyaslavl Rada - is a fine historical example of the future modus operandi of the Ukranian elite. Instead of choosing future for their own country, they would opportunistically choose between some foreign candidates, finally choosing the one with the best terms, but will always have a betrayal as an option...

(but that's another story...)

Thanks, I think I got the picture. I didn't knew the cossacks were so important in Ukrainian history to be honest.
...also, it seems Poland is a fashion victim.

Arrgh! We in Russia we have some nice shanty bands! “Trebouchet”

Listened to some of their songs, they seem to be a bloody good bunch. I approve.

[Al-Orthodoxia]

I've been to a (Russian) Orthodox church service last Saturday, vesper. Russian in brackets because the liturgy is changed to my native language and all certain kind of nationalities take service there.

Pretty interesting, and the priest is a good guy. Certainly got me hooked on Russian spiritual and most of all, the cossacks.

That said, I'll raise my glass next time for the Cossacks.

[Great Kleomentia]

So, nice weather we're having?
Also, whats your favorite Slavic medieval state?
Apart from Serbia, mine would have to be Poland.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

The "reasonable" offer, reasonable according to EUstan, unrealistic demands according to most people in the rest of the World:

The Royal Serbian Government shall further undertake:

(1) To suppress any publication which incites to hatred and contempt of the Austro-Hungarian Monarchy and the general tendency of which is directed against its territorial integrity;

(2) To dissolve immediately the society styled "Narodna Odbrana," to confiscate all its means of propaganda, and to proceed in the same manner against other societies and their branches in Serbia which engage in propaganda against the Austro-Hungarian Monarchy. The Royal Government shall take the necessary measures to prevent the societies dissolved from continuing their activity under another name and form;

(3) To eliminate without delay from public instruction in Serbia, both as regards the teaching body and also as regards the methods of instruction, everything that serves, or might serve, to foment the propaganda against Austria-Hungary;

(4) To remove from the military service, and from the administration in general, all officers and functionaries guilty of propaganda against the Austro-Hungarian Monarchy whose names and deeds the Austro-Hungarian Government reserve to themselves the right of communicating to the Royal Government;

(5) To accept the collaboration in Serbia of representatives of the Austro-Hungarian Government for the suppression of the subversive movement directed against the territorial integrity of the Monarchy;

(6) To take judicial proceedings against accessories to the plot of the 28th of June who are on Serbian territory; delegates of the Austro-Hungarian Government will take part in the investigation relating thereto;

(7) To proceed without delay to the arrest of Major Voija Tankositch and of the individual named Milan Ciganovitch, a Serbian State employee, who have been compromised by the results of the magisterial inquiry at Serajevo;

(8) To prevent by effective measures the cooperation of the Serbian authorities in the illicit traffic in arms and explosives across the frontier, to dismiss and punish severely the officials of the frontier service at Shabatz Loznica guilty of having assisted the perpetrators of the Serajevo crime by facilitating their passage across the frontier;

(9) To furnish the Imperial and Royal Government with explanations regarding the unjustifiable utterances of high Serbian officials, both in Serbia and abroad, who, notwithstanding their official position, have not hesitated since the crime of the 28th of June to express themselves in interviews in terms of hostility to the Austro-Hungarian Government; and, finally,

(10) To notify the Imperial and Royal Government without delay of the execution of the measures comprised under the preceding heads.
The Austro-Hungarian Government expect the reply of the Royal Government at the latest by 5 o'clock on Saturday evening the 25th of July.

That... doesn't sound too realistic.

[Agritum]

I see you're talking about WWII. Can any of you Germanic idiots come up with an explanation why Germany attacked France in WWI, as I can see you're blaming it all on Serbs?

...could you calm down, man?

It isn't like the whole nation of Germany just logged on this thread to blame all of the Serbian people from WW1 to today.

[Conscentia]

I see you're talking about WWII. Can any of you Germanic idiots come up with an explanation why Germany attacked France in WWI, as I can see you're blaming it all on Serbs?

Ever heard of the Schlieffen Plan?

The Schlieffen Plan.
The Schlieffen Plan was the German General Staff's early-20th-century overall strategic plan for victory in a possible future war in which the German Empire might find itself fighting on two fronts: France to the west and Russia to the east. The First World War later became such a war, with both a Western and an Eastern Front.
The plan took advantage of Russia's slowness and expected differences in the three countries' speed in preparing for war. In short, it was the German plan to avoid a two-front war by concentrating troops in the West and quickly defeating the French and then, if necessary, rushing those troops by rail to the East to face the Russians before they had time to mobilize fully.

[Pretty Awesome Persons]

I see you're talking about WWII. Can any of you Germanic idiots come up with an explanation why Germany attacked France in WWI, as I can see you're blaming it all on Serbs?

>Germanic idiots
>speaking a Germanic language

[Polski Swiety Imperium]

RUSSIA VS POLAND

RUSSIARUSSIA
RUSSIARUSSIA
RUSSIARUSSIA
Is who I'm not supporting.

[Slavialand]

RUSSIA VS POLAND
RUSSIARUSSIA
RUSSIARUSSIA
RUSSIARUSSIA

Uuuuh no. This is a slavic thread not OMG KIL RASHA FER DE SOVIETZ!

[Bolkania]

RUSSIA VS POLAND

RUSSIARUSSIA
RUSSIARUSSIA
RUSSIARUSSIA
Is who I'm not supporting.

Bear in mind I hate to see inter-Slav violence, but a war between Russia and Poland is really a question of "How many parking spaces does Warsaw have for T-90s?".

[Vsenyslavia]

Hello.
I am finally here, my children. Bask in the slavic glory.


But for realz, Hi.