The Slavic Thread!

[Wytenigistan]

Saladin treated conquered territories much better than the Crusaders.

That's the actions of one Kurd, it doesn't mean all Muslim leaders were like that just like not all Christians massacred the non-believers.

yep, thats why blanket statements about any group of people are not a good thing.

[Great Kleomentia]

Saladin treated conquered territories much better than the Crusaders.

That's the actions of one Kurd, it doesn't mean all Muslim leaders were like that just like not all Christians massacred the non-believers.

True.

[The North Polish Union]

OOC:

My fascination for Russia started when I was a 6-year old playing Red Alert 2. I also loved watching the movie Anastasia and wondered if she was the same as Cinderella's step-sister. As I grew up, I began to wonder why the current Russian flag isn't the red field with a yellow hammer and sickle on the top so I began to do a little research. When I knew that Russia was once a Great Empire, I vowed to dedicate most of my life in praising its glory. Russian History is my forte and I am very enthusiastic when it comes to reading stuff about Russia. I also do not recognise any formal religion but I idolise some Slavic saints such as Saint-Tsar Nicholas II and Saint Olga of Kiev.

Да здравствует царя!

So just how high does that make you?

(I kid...)

[Bolkania]

OOC:

My fascination for Russia started when I was a 6-year old playing Red Alert 2. I also loved watching the movie Anastasia and wondered if she was the same as Cinderella's step-sister. As I grew up, I began to wonder why the current Russian flag isn't the red field with a yellow hammer and sickle on the top so I began to do a little research. When I knew that Russia was once a Great Empire, I vowed to dedicate most of my life in praising its glory. Russian History is my forte and I am very enthusiastic when it comes to reading stuff about Russia. I also do not recognise any formal religion but I idolise some Slavic saints such as Saint-Tsar Nicholas II and Saint Olga of Kiev.

Да здравствует царя!

I would say Alexander II is worth more to praise, but hey, that's me.

[Pretty Awesome Persons]

The only real Slavs are the Slovenes.

And must we count the Polacks?

Who else are they? Poles are slavs.

Return Prussian clay pls

[Vareiln]

Just yesterday everyone in one of my classes was spewing bullshit about Russia, past, present, and future, and I just had to sit there and remain silent.
It is a sad day when people would rather make snarky commentary based on misinformation than educate themselves on a fascinating culture with a rich history.
But, of course, its easier to go "ERHMAGERDS KOMMYUNEESM" and decry Putin's "OMG HE'S AGAINST TEH GAYS" while you yourself are spewing gay as an insult every five seconds and advocating that all social welfare be removed from everything.
TL;DR: The kids didn't know shit about what they were saying and were rather hypocritical. It's amazing the ignorance people have when it comes to Slavic nations.

[Bolkania]

Just yesterday everyone in one of my classes was spewing bullshit about Russia, past, present, and future, and I just had to sit there and remain silent.
It is a sad day when people would rather make snarky commentary based on misinformation than educate themselves on a fascinating culture with a rich history.
But, of course, its easier to go "ERHMAGERDS KOMMYUNEESM" and decry Putin's "OMG HE'S AGAINST TEH GAYS" while you yourself are spewing gay as an insult every five seconds and advocating that all social welfare be removed from everything.
TL;DR: The kids didn't know shit about what they were saying and were rather hypocritical. It's amazing the ignorance people have when it comes to Slavic nations.

I guess they will criticise the Saudi for their attitudes to Gays and Women. I'm about to cover the Russian revolution, thus I expect people to be saying Shit, but me guarding my mothers Russian blood mean I will respond about how Britain castrated their own top spy because he was gay.

[Vareiln]

I guess they will criticise the Saudi for their attitudes to Gays and Women. I'm about to cover the Russian revolution, thus I expect people to be saying Shit, but me guarding my mothers Russian blood mean I will respond about how Britain castrated their own top spy because he was gay.

BTW, what do you think about that story that Nazis killed gays? I think it's completely made up, as there is no proof for it. In fact, I think many Germans that supported Nazism passively or aggressively were gay.

It happened.

[Great Kleomentia]

OOC:

My fascination for Russia started when I was a 6-year old playing Red Alert 2. I also loved watching the movie Anastasia and wondered if she was the same as Cinderella's step-sister. As I grew up, I began to wonder why the current Russian flag isn't the red field with a yellow hammer and sickle on the top so I began to do a little research. When I knew that Russia was once a Great Empire, I vowed to dedicate most of my life in praising its glory. Russian History is my forte and I am very enthusiastic when it comes to reading stuff about Russia. I also do not recognise any formal religion but I idolise some Slavic saints such as Saint-Tsar Nicholas II and Saint Olga of Kiev.

Да здравствует царя!

Oh great, a Russophile, just what we need.
I kid, of course. Glad there's someone else that likes Russian Imperial history. Im pretty much all about monarchist history, so Russia fits well into my spectar ^^

[Pretty Awesome Persons]

Just yesterday everyone in one of my classes was spewing bullshit about Russia, past, present, and future, and I just had to sit there and remain silent.
It is a sad day when people would rather make snarky commentary based on misinformation than educate themselves on a fascinating culture with a rich history.
But, of course, its easier to go "ERHMAGERDS KOMMYUNEESM" and decry Putin's "OMG HE'S AGAINST TEH GAYS" while you yourself are spewing gay as an insult every five seconds and advocating that all social welfare be removed from everything.
TL;DR: The kids didn't know shit about what they were saying and were rather hypocritical. It's amazing the ignorance people have when it comes to Slavic nations.

Sort of on the same note, I feel the same way when I hear people say ignorant things about Mexico. Just three weeks ago, someone in my AP World class said that Liberia is better than Mexico. People form opinions about the country and people without really knowing anything. They talk about how Mexico is corrupt and undeveloped but don't know that the US helped Porfirio Diaz and Victoriano Huerta (dictators) and declared war on us for absolutely no reason other than muh manifest destiny and muh slaves. The land we lost was worth a fortune (California and Texas among other states) that could've greatly helped Mexico. They don't realize that the American government funneled guns to the cartels under the guise of finding cartel members AND LOST THE GUNS. Aside from the United States, foreign imperial powers pushed Mexico around since day one. France forcefully installing a monarchy, France again declaring war over some stupid cakes and irrational monarchists never let Mexico develop properly. And I swear if anyone says "Maximilian could've stabilized Mexico" I will scream because some people are so dense they don't realize that they had no problem with his ideas, they had problems that HE WAS AUSTRIAN AND HAD NO CONNECTION TO MEXICO AT ALL WHY IS HE RULING US.

Germany and Russia has always had our back though, so much love to my German and Slavic brothers. And срећан Дан државности, Србијa.

[Abasha]

Just yesterday everyone in one of my classes was spewing bullshit about Russia, past, present, and future, and I just had to sit there and remain silent.
It is a sad day when people would rather make snarky commentary based on misinformation than educate themselves on a fascinating culture with a rich history.
But, of course, its easier to go "ERHMAGERDS KOMMYUNEESM" and decry Putin's "OMG HE'S AGAINST TEH GAYS" while you yourself are spewing gay as an insult every five seconds and advocating that all social welfare be removed from everything.
TL;DR: The kids didn't know shit about what they were saying and were rather hypocritical. It's amazing the ignorance people have when it comes to Slavic nations.

Sort of on the same note, I feel the same way when I hear people say ignorant things about Mexico. Just three weeks ago, someone in my AP World class said that Liberia is better than Mexico. People form opinions about the country and people without really knowing anything. They talk about how Mexico is corrupt and undeveloped but don't know that the US helped Porfirio Diaz and Victoriano Huerta (dictators) and declared war on us for absolutely no reason other than muh manifest destiny and muh slaves. The land we lost was worth a fortune (California and Texas among other states) that could've greatly helped Mexico. They don't realize that the American government funneled guns to the cartels under the guise of finding cartel members AND LOST THE GUNS. Aside from the United States, foreign imperial powers pushed Mexico around since day one. France forcefully installing a monarchy, France again declaring war over some stupid cakes and irrational monarchists never let Mexico develop properly. And I swear if anyone says "Maximilian could've stabilized Mexico" I will scream because some people are so dense they don't realize that they had no problem with his ideas, they had problems that HE WAS AUSTRIAN AND HAD NO CONNECTION TO MEXICO AT ALL WHY IS HE RULING US.

Germany and Russia has always had our back though, so much love to my German and Slavic brothers. And срећан Дан државности, Србијa.

The Mexican monarchy would have worked if they weren't being screwed over so many times. Mexico is kind of like the bullied child of North and South America. You guys have lost a lot of land to the US and to the Central American countries. Texas becoming independent would have been fine with me if they hadn't immediately run to the US for help when they got afraid the Mexican Army would come.

Now the US is still destabilizing Mexico for some reason when it really deserves to be such a great country. I have a bunch of Mexican friends and they all agree with me. If it wasn't for the US monkeying about with the drug cartels and the Mexican government, there wouldn't be any issues of corruption or gang violence. Idiots, all of them!

By the way: Jebem ti Cirilicu, ali zivela Srbija!

[Abasha]

Just yesterday everyone in one of my classes was spewing bullshit about Russia, past, present, and future, and I just had to sit there and remain silent.
It is a sad day when people would rather make snarky commentary based on misinformation than educate themselves on a fascinating culture with a rich history.
But, of course, its easier to go "ERHMAGERDS KOMMYUNEESM" and decry Putin's "OMG HE'S AGAINST TEH GAYS" while you yourself are spewing gay as an insult every five seconds and advocating that all social welfare be removed from everything.
TL;DR: The kids didn't know shit about what they were saying and were rather hypocritical. It's amazing the ignorance people have when it comes to Slavic nations.

When I was in high school and we got to WWI everybody would be like, "AH... DA SERBS STARTED THE WAR. ERMMAGERD AM I RIGHT, TEACHERSIR?" Then I would have the one asshole who would be like, "Alisa is Serbian, her ancestors started WWI!" Then I would get pissed off and try to tell them about the Black Hand, the Austrian ultimatum, the multiple Serbian warnings, the German support of the Austrians, and the hatred and would lose them about halfway through.

Then, God forbid when we talked about Kosovo!

[EUstan]

Just yesterday everyone in one of my classes was spewing bullshit about Russia, past, present, and future, and I just had to sit there and remain silent.
It is a sad day when people would rather make snarky commentary based on misinformation than educate themselves on a fascinating culture with a rich history.
But, of course, its easier to go "ERHMAGERDS KOMMYUNEESM" and decry Putin's "OMG HE'S AGAINST TEH GAYS" while you yourself are spewing gay as an insult every five seconds and advocating that all social welfare be removed from everything.
TL;DR: The kids didn't know shit about what they were saying and were rather hypocritical. It's amazing the ignorance people have when it comes to Slavic nations.

When I was in high school and we got to WWI everybody would be like, "AH... DA SERBS STARTED THE WAR. ERMMAGERD AM I RIGHT, TEACHERSIR?" Then I would have the one asshole who would be like, "Alisa is Serbian, her ancestors started WWI!" Then I would get pissed off and try to tell them about the Black Hand, the Austrian ultimatum, the multiple Serbian warnings, the German support of the Austrians, and the hatred and would lose them about halfway through.

Then, God forbid when we talked about Kosovo!

Well, yes they started WWI. I dont see what is here false.

The Austrian ultimatum was that the two governments make an investigation in Serbia, it was a very reasonable offer. But Pašić and his crew of long-beard mountain racists rejected it, and the rest is history.

[Abasha]

When I was in high school and we got to WWI everybody would be like, "AH... DA SERBS STARTED THE WAR. ERMMAGERD AM I RIGHT, TEACHERSIR?" Then I would have the one asshole who would be like, "Alisa is Serbian, her ancestors started WWI!" Then I would get pissed off and try to tell them about the Black Hand, the Austrian ultimatum, the multiple Serbian warnings, the German support of the Austrians, and the hatred and would lose them about halfway through.

Then, God forbid when we talked about Kosovo!

Well, yes they started WWI. I dont see what is here false.

The Austrian ultimatum was that the two governments make an investigation in Serbia, it was a very reasonable offer. But Pašić and his crew of long-beard mountain racists rejected it, and the rest is history.

No, the ultimatum was made into terms that the Austrian government knew would be unacceptable to Serbia. Oh, and by the way, did you know that the Serbian ambassador to the Austro-Hungarian Empire warned Franz Ferdinand not to visit Sarajevo? Did you also know that it was Serbian Independence Day too? What a damn slap in the face, as he was there to oversee military exercises meant to fight against Serbia in a future war.

Does this seem like just wanting an investigation to you? This is the English version of the Austrian Ultimatum to Serbia:

On the 31st of March, 1909, the Serbian Minister in Vienna, on the instructions of the Serbian Government, made the following declaration to the Imperial and Royal Government:

"Serbia recognizes that the fait accompli regarding Bosnia has not affected her rights and consequently she will conform to the decisions that the Powers may take in conformity with Article 25 of the Treaty of Berlin. In deference to the advice of the Great Powers, Serbia undertakes to renounce from now onwards the attitude of protest and opposition which she has adopted with regard to the annexation since last autumn.

She undertakes, moreover, to modify the direction of her policy with regard to Austria-Hungary and to live in future on good neighbourly terms with the latter.

The history of recent years, and in particular the painful events of the 28th of June last, have shown the existence of a subversive movement with the object of detaching a part of the territories of Austria-Hungary from the Monarchy.

The movement, which had its birth under the eye of the Serbian Government, has gone so far as to make itself manifest on both sides of the Serbian frontier in the shape of acts of terrorism and a series of outrages and murders.

Far from carrying out the formal undertakings contained in the declaration of the 31st of March, 1909, the Royal Serbian Government has done nothing to repress these movements. It has permitted the criminal machinations of various societies and associations directed against the Monarchy, and has tolerated unrestrained language on the part of the press, the glorification of the perpetrators of outrages, and the participation of officers and functionaries in subversive agitation.

It has permitted an unwholesome propaganda in public instruction; in short, it has permitted all manifestations of a nature to incite the Serbian population to hatred of the Monarchy and contempt of its institutions.

This culpable tolerance of the Royal Serbian Government had not ceased at the moment when the events of the 28th of June last proved its fatal consequences to the whole world.

It results from the depositions and confessions of the criminal perpetrators of the outrage of the 28th of June that the Serajevo assassinations were planned in Belgrade; that the arms and explosives with which the murderers were provided had been given to them by Serbian officers and functionaries belonging to the Narodna Odbrana; and finally, that the passage into Bosnia of the criminals and their arms was organized and effected by the chiefs of the Serbian frontier service.

The above-mentioned results of the magisterial investigation do not permit the Austro-Hungarian Government to pursue any longer the attitude of expectant forbearance which they have maintained for years in face of the machinations hatched in Belgrade, and thence propagated in the territories of the Monarchy. The results, on the contrary, impose on them the duty of putting an end to the intrigues which form a perpetual menace to the tranquillity of the Monarchy.

To achieve this end the Imperial and Royal Government see themselves compelled to demand from the Royal Serbian Government a formal assurance that they condemn this dangerous propaganda against the Monarchy; in other words the whole series of tendencies, the ultimate aim of which is to detach from the Monarchy territories belonging to it and that they undertake to suppress by every means this criminal and terrorist propaganda.

In order to give a formal character to this undertaking the Royal Serbian Government shall publish on the front page of their "Official Journal" of the 13-26 of July the following declaration:

The Royal Government of Serbia condemn the propaganda directed against Austria-Hungary - i.e., the general tendency of which the final aim is to detach from the Austro-Hungarian Monarchy territories belonging to it, and they sincerely deplore the fatal consequences of these criminal proceedings.

The Royal Government regret that Serbian officers and functionaries participated in the above-mentioned propaganda and thus compromised the good neighbourly relations to which the Royal Government were solemnly pledged by their declaration of the 31st of March, 1909.

The Royal Government, who disapprove and repudiate all idea of interfering or attempting to interfere with the destinies of the inhabitants of any part whatsoever of Austria-Hungary, consider it their duty formally to warn officers and functionaries, and the whole population of the Kingdom, that henceforward they will proceed with the utmost rigor against persons who may be guilty of such machinations, which they will use all their efforts to anticipate and suppress."

This declaration shall simultaneously be communicated to the Royal army as an order of the day by His Majesty the King and shall be published in the "Official Bulletin" of the army.

The Royal Serbian Government shall further undertake:

(1) To suppress any publication which incites to hatred and contempt of the Austro-Hungarian Monarchy and the general tendency of which is directed against its territorial integrity;

(2) To dissolve immediately the society styled "Narodna Odbrana," to confiscate all its means of propaganda, and to proceed in the same manner against other societies and their branches in Serbia which engage in propaganda against the Austro-Hungarian Monarchy. The Royal Government shall take the necessary measures to prevent the societies dissolved from continuing their activity under another name and form;

(3) To eliminate without delay from public instruction in Serbia, both as regards the teaching body and also as regards the methods of instruction, everything that serves, or might serve, to foment the propaganda against Austria-Hungary;

(4) To remove from the military service, and from the administration in general, all officers and functionaries guilty of propaganda against the Austro-Hungarian Monarchy whose names and deeds the Austro-Hungarian Government reserve to themselves the right of communicating to the Royal Government;

(5) To accept the collaboration in Serbia of representatives of the Austro-Hungarian Government for the suppression of the subversive movement directed against the territorial integrity of the Monarchy;

(6) To take judicial proceedings against accessories to the plot of the 28th of June who are on Serbian territory; delegates of the Austro-Hungarian Government will take part in the investigation relating thereto;

(7) To proceed without delay to the arrest of Major Voija Tankositch and of the individual named Milan Ciganovitch, a Serbian State employee, who have been compromised by the results of the magisterial inquiry at Serajevo;

(8) To prevent by effective measures the cooperation of the Serbian authorities in the illicit traffic in arms and explosives across the frontier, to dismiss and punish severely the officials of the frontier service at Shabatz Loznica guilty of having assisted the perpetrators of the Serajevo crime by facilitating their passage across the frontier;

(9) To furnish the Imperial and Royal Government with explanations regarding the unjustifiable utterances of high Serbian officials, both in Serbia and abroad, who, notwithstanding their official position, have not hesitated since the crime of the 28th of June to express themselves in interviews in terms of hostility to the Austro-Hungarian Government; and, finally,

(10) To notify the Imperial and Royal Government without delay of the execution of the measures comprised under the preceding heads.
The Austro-Hungarian Government expect the reply of the Royal Government at the latest by 5 o'clock on Saturday evening the 25th of July."

That ultimatum was impossible for Serbia to fulfill in 48 hours given the communications that they had then and the fact that the Serbian government didn't get their copy of the ultimatum until the deadline was almost up.

This was the Serbian response:
"[Serbia will] introduce ... a provision into the press law providing for the most severe punishment of incitement to hatred and contempt of the [A-H] Monarchy...

The Serbian govt.] possesses no proof ... that the Narodna Odbrana and other similar societies have committed up to the present any criminal act of this nature ... Nevertheless, [Serbia] will ... dissolve the Narodna Obrana and every other society which...

[Serbia will] eliminate without delay from public instruction ... everything that serves or might serve to foment the propaganda against [A-H], whenever [Austria] furnish them with facts and proofs...

[Serbia] also agree to remove from the military service all such persons as the judicial inquiry may have proved to be guilty of acts directed against the integrity of the territory of [A-H], and they expect [Austria] to communicate ... the names and acts of these officers for the purpose of the proceedings which are to be taken against them.

[The Serbian govt. does] not clearly grasp the meaning or the scope of the demand ... that Serbia shall undertake to accept the collaboration of the representatives of [A-H], but they declare that they will admit such collaboration as agrees with the principle of international law, with criminal procedure, and with good neighbourly relations.

...As regards the participation in this inquiry [which Serbia intends to hold] of Austro-Hungarian agents... [Serbia] cannot accept such an arrangement, as it would be a violation of the Constitution...

[States it has not yet been possible to arrest one of the persons named; request proofs of guilt from Austria]

[agrees to reinforce measures against illegal trafficking of arms and explosives across the frontier with Bosnia-Herzegovina]

[offers explanations of anti-Austrian comments by Serb officials if Austria sends examples of their actually having been made]

[Serbia will duly notify the measures taken, but if Austria is not satisfied with the reply] the Serbian government . . are ready . . to accept a pacific understanding, either by referring this question to the decision of the International Tribunal of the Hague [i.e., the World Court], or to the Great Powers..."

Real war-mongers right there! Austria was trying to violate the rights of Serbia and her citizens by having people arrested without proof of guilt, the whole thing was madness! Not to mention the Austrians invaded us, not the other way around.

[Lyttenburgh]

Then I would get pissed off and try to tell them about the Black Hand, the Austrian ultimatum, the multiple Serbian warnings, the German support of the Austrians, and the hatred and would lose them about halfway through.

I'm glad that the Чрна Рука was mentioned here. I;d like to ask all resident serbs (+ all the people "in the theme"), what do you think about this organisation?

Namely:
1) What so you think was the ultimate political goal of the Black Hand members? Were they nationalist, monarchist, socialist or some sort of amalgamation of such views?

2) The Black Hand's role in the overthroving of Obrenović dynasty. Was it (ultimately) for better or for worse?

3) Are there any books on Black/White hand organisations and their fate?

[EUstan]

No, the ultimatum was made into terms that the Austrian government knew would be unacceptable to Serbia. Oh, and by the way, did you know that the Serbian ambassador to the Austro-Hungarian Empire warned Franz Ferdinand not to visit Sarajevo?Did you also know that it was Serbian Independence Day too? What a damn slap in the face, as he was there to oversee military exercises meant to fight against Serbia in a future war.

Wait, are you complaining that Franz Ferdinand did not had the right to oversee a millitary excercise in his monarchy just because a another foreing country had Independence day?

Wait, wait does that means that Nikolić should not go to Preševo valley just because Albania or Kosovo are having independece day?

Does this seem like just wanting an investigation to you? This is the English version of the Austrian Ultimatum to Serbia:

On the 31st of March, 1909, the Serbian Minister in Vienna, on the instructions of the Serbian Government, made the following declaration to the Imperial and Royal Government:

No, it is not becuase the ultimatum was given in 1914. Also, to be honest I did not ready the rest of the text since it would take to much time.

...

Also, I need the source of the real ultimatum since this is to long and you with purpose use some part of context.

Also, the second what shows that you text is really doubtfull is that you are refering to the "Austro-Hungarian" government. You know there was no unified A-H governmnet from 1867.?

A-H had three governments Austrian, Hungarian and the governmnet of Kingdom of Croatia. The first was the one who wanted the war while the other two opposed the war and made everything to save peace. There was even a declaration of the hungarian prime minister Istwan Tisza who tried to prevented it. That is also why the ultimatum was only to make an investigation in Serbia which is prety reasonable and peacefull as today all governments are cooperating to prevent terrorism.

And yes, Serbia under the Karađorđević dynasty (since the May coup of 1903) was indeed hostile and imperialistic toward the Monarchy.

[Pretty Awesome Persons]

Sort of on the same note, I feel the same way when I hear people say ignorant things about Mexico. Just three weeks ago, someone in my AP World class said that Liberia is better than Mexico. People form opinions about the country and people without really knowing anything. They talk about how Mexico is corrupt and undeveloped but don't know that the US helped Porfirio Diaz and Victoriano Huerta (dictators) and declared war on us for absolutely no reason other than muh manifest destiny and muh slaves. The land we lost was worth a fortune (California and Texas among other states) that could've greatly helped Mexico. They don't realize that the American government funneled guns to the cartels under the guise of finding cartel members AND LOST THE GUNS. Aside from the United States, foreign imperial powers pushed Mexico around since day one. France forcefully installing a monarchy, France again declaring war over some stupid cakes and irrational monarchists never let Mexico develop properly. And I swear if anyone says "Maximilian could've stabilized Mexico" I will scream because some people are so dense they don't realize that they had no problem with his ideas, they had problems that HE WAS AUSTRIAN AND HAD NO CONNECTION TO MEXICO AT ALL WHY IS HE RULING US.

Germany and Russia has always had our back though, so much love to my German and Slavic brothers. And срећан Дан државности, Србијa.

The Mexican monarchy would have worked if they weren't being screwed over so many times. Mexico is kind of like the bullied child of North and South America. You guys have lost a lot of land to the US and to the Central American countries. Texas becoming independent would have been fine with me if they hadn't immediately run to the US for help when they got afraid the Mexican Army would come.

Now the US is still destabilizing Mexico for some reason when it really deserves to be such a great country. I have a bunch of Mexican friends and they all agree with me. If it wasn't for the US monkeying about with the drug cartels and the Mexican government, there wouldn't be any issues of corruption or gang violence. Idiots, all of them!

By the way: Jebem ti Cirilicu, ali zivela Srbija!

I actually sympathize with Maximilian. He supported the liberals and for that reason the conservatives (who brought him over) later betrayed him. France also refused to back him up. His last words were "May my blood which is about to be shed, be for the good of the country. Viva Mexico, viva la independencia!"
It's strange because although I identify as a libertarian, I would have no problems with a monarchy. As long as the guy/girl isn't crazy. And is Mexican (in Mexico's case). Democracy is for suckers.

дуго живети ћирилица абецеда!

[Abasha]

Then I would get pissed off and try to tell them about the Black Hand, the Austrian ultimatum, the multiple Serbian warnings, the German support of the Austrians, and the hatred and would lose them about halfway through.

I'm glad that the Чрна Рука was mentioned here. I;d like to ask all resident serbs (+ all the people "in the theme"), what do you think about this organisation?

Namely:
1) What so you think was the ultimate political goal of the Black Hand members? Were they nationalist, monarchist, socialist or some sort of amalgamation of such views?

2) The Black Hand's role in the overthroving of Obrenović dynasty. Was it (ultimately) for better or for worse?

3) Are there any books on Black/White hand organisations and their fate?

Okay, well I will take the honor of answering you as a Serb!

1. I think the ultimate political goal of the Blank Hand is a bit hard to see for anyone. They were nationalists, monarchists, radicals, liberals, and an amalgamation of other beliefs which often conflicted each other. I think their ultimate goal was probably to form a massive Serbian-ruled Yugoslavia that would conquer all of the Balkans and the Austrian Empire, which was under strict control by the army but had a liberal constitution.

2. I am generally neutral on the Black Hand, but them assassinating Alexander and Draga was fucking ridiculous, especially what they did to their bodies. They assassinated him presumably because Alexander was going to make Draga's brother heir presumptive, which wasn't the case. So, basically the killed them because they didn't like who he picked to be his wife. Then they put the fucking Karadordevic Dynasty in power, and only two of them were any good at all, Alexander I and Peter I. They were good for Serbia in the short run, but bad in the end as they failed epically at protecting Serbia from foreigners and were weak to foreign intervention, as seen in the Regent Paul coup. Plus the Obrenovic Dynasty gave Serbia its independence and acted as strong, independent rulers. After all, the Balkan Wars were won on the back of the army that the Obrenovic family built.

3. I am sure that there are but they are probably in Serbian Cyrillic, which I can't read, and I have not seen any English books on them, though I have never worked.

[EUstan]

1) What so you think was the ultimate political goal of the Black Hand members? Were they nationalist, monarchist, socialist or some sort of amalgamation of such views?

2) The Black Hand's role in the overthroving of Obrenović dynasty. Was it (ultimately) for better or for worse?

3) Are there any books on Black/White hand organisations and their fate?

1. They were generally nationalist and monarchist as their ultimate goal was to create a Greater Serbia (which would be transmitted in Yugoslavia, just as the later Kingdom SHS later become).
2. One of the leader of the Black Hand was Dragutin Dimitrijević Apis, he was preparing the assasination on archduke Ferdinand but he also participated in the May coup where the Obrenović dynasty was overthrown.
3.Most of them become high position politcian in post-war Yugoslavia.

[Abasha]

No, the ultimatum was made into terms that the Austrian government knew would be unacceptable to Serbia. Oh, and by the way, did you know that the Serbian ambassador to the Austro-Hungarian Empire warned Franz Ferdinand not to visit Sarajevo?Did you also know that it was Serbian Independence Day too? What a damn slap in the face, as he was there to oversee military exercises meant to fight against Serbia in a future war.

Wait, are you complaining that Franz Ferdinand did not had the right to oversee a millitary excercise in his monarchy just because a another foreing country had Independence day?

Wait, wait does that means that Nikolić should not go to Preševo valley just because Albania or Kosovo are having independece day?

Does this seem like just wanting an investigation to you? This is the English version of the Austrian Ultimatum to Serbia:

On the 31st of March, 1909, the Serbian Minister in Vienna, on the instructions of the Serbian Government, made the following declaration to the Imperial and Royal Government:

No, it is not becuase the ultimatum was given in 1914. Also, to be honest I did not ready the rest of the text since it would take to much time.

...

Also, I need the source of the real ultimatum since this is to long and you with purpose use some part of context.

Also, the second what shows that you text is really doubtfull is that you are refering to the "Austro-Hungarian" government. You know there was no unified A-H governmnet from 1867.?

A-H had three governments Austrian, Hungarian and the governmnet of Kingdom of Croatia. The first was the one who wanted the war while the other two opposed the war and made everything to save peace. There was even a declaration of the hungarian prime minister Istwan Tisza who tried to prevented it. That is also why the ultimatum was only to make an investigation in Serbia which is prety reasonable and peacefull as today all governments are cooperating to prevent terrorism.

And yes, Serbia under the Karađorđević dynasty (since the May coup of 1903) was indeed hostile and imperialistic toward the Monarchy.

Bosnia is Serbian land and Austria illegally annexed it and took control to cock block Serbia simply because they didn't want it to become a good country. I also know that the Hungarians were against it, though I have never heard anything of the Croatians being hostile. Oh, and when somebody tells you, "Don't visit, you will probably got shot." and you do it anyways... What kind of idiot are you?

You act as if the Austrians didn't hate the Serbs and want them gone. The whole ultimatum was an excuse for trying to crush Serbia because Serbia's independence encouraged the minorities within the Austro-Hungarian Empire to rise up and rebel and try to become independent.

By the way, the document that I showed is the real ultimatum from 1914, and here is the source that I copied and pasted from. You can read it word for word: http://www.firstworldwar.com/source/aus ... imatum.htm

[Abasha]

The Mexican monarchy would have worked if they weren't being screwed over so many times. Mexico is kind of like the bullied child of North and South America. You guys have lost a lot of land to the US and to the Central American countries. Texas becoming independent would have been fine with me if they hadn't immediately run to the US for help when they got afraid the Mexican Army would come.

Now the US is still destabilizing Mexico for some reason when it really deserves to be such a great country. I have a bunch of Mexican friends and they all agree with me. If it wasn't for the US monkeying about with the drug cartels and the Mexican government, there wouldn't be any issues of corruption or gang violence. Idiots, all of them!

By the way: Jebem ti Cirilicu, ali zivela Srbija!

I actually sympathize with Maximilian. He supported the liberals and for that reason the conservatives (who brought him over) later betrayed him. France also refused to back him up. His last words were "May my blood which is about to be shed, be for the good of the country. Viva Mexico, viva la independencia!"
It's strange because although I identify as a libertarian, I would have no problems with a monarchy. As long as the guy/girl isn't crazy. And is Mexican (in Mexico's case). Democracy is for suckers.

дуго живети ћирилица абецеда!

No Serbian monarchs of Mexico while you are around then? xD

[EUstan]

Bosnia is Serbian land and Austria illegally annexed it and took control to cock block Serbia simply because they didn't want it to become a good country.

No, its not Serbian land as the majority of Bosnian inhabitans did not want to join Serbia.

Bosnia was first an Ottoman province. Than in 1878 A-H got the right to occupied it, but remained de iure Ottoman province and than in 1908 it gor de iure annexed by A-H. Serbia had no claim on it, and even at first it complained about being under Ottoman Empire.

Even the Young Turks protested because of the annexation.

"Don't visit, you will probably got shot." and you do it anyways... What kind of idiot are you?

And again, he was the head a state. Hearing to threats of an ambasador is not his job especially as that ambasador has nothing to do with Bosnia. also source for the "warningr".

The whole ultimatum was an excuse for trying to crush Serbia because Serbia's independence encouraged the minorities within the Austro-Hungarian Empire to rise up and rebel and try to become independent.

This is a white supramist and religious bigoted myth. I would rather ignore it.

By the way, the document that I showed is the real ultimatum from 1914, and here is the source that I copied and pasted from. You can read it word for word: http://www.firstworldwar.com/source/aus ... imatum.htm

Did you actually read all the demands?

[Shofercia]

When I was in high school and we got to WWI everybody would be like, "AH... DA SERBS STARTED THE WAR. ERMMAGERD AM I RIGHT, TEACHERSIR?" Then I would have the one asshole who would be like, "Alisa is Serbian, her ancestors started WWI!" Then I would get pissed off and try to tell them about the Black Hand, the Austrian ultimatum, the multiple Serbian warnings, the German support of the Austrians, and the hatred and would lose them about halfway through.

Then, God forbid when we talked about Kosovo!

Well, yes they started WWI. I dont see what is here false.

The Austrian ultimatum was that the two governments make an investigation in Serbia, it was a very reasonable offer. But Pašić and his crew of long-beard mountain racists rejected it, and the rest is history.

The Austrian ultimatum was a very reasonable offer.

[EUstan]

Well, yes they started WWI. I dont see what is here false.

The Austrian ultimatum was that the two governments make an investigation in Serbia, it was a very reasonable offer. But Pašić and his crew of long-beard mountain racists rejected it, and the rest is history.

The Austrian ultimatum was a very reasonable offer.

Let us switch another caracters. Some Georgian nationalists kills Putin with the help of the Georgian government.

Russia offers that the two governments make an investigation in Tbilisi.

Georgia refused and starting to dick waving.

Russia had enough and attacks.

According to shorfencia Georgia was the rogue caracter, but not Serbia.

[Shofercia]

The Austrian ultimatum was a very reasonable offer.

Let us switch another caracters. Some Georgian nationalists kills Putin with the help of the Georgian government.

Russia offers that the two governments make an investigation in Tbilisi.

Georgia refused and starting to dick waving.

Russia had enough and attacks.

According to shorfencia Georgia was the rogue caracter, but not Serbia.

Shorfencia? Really?

Well at least you're entertaining. Anyways, Georgia attacked a Russian Peacekeeping Base and Russian Civilians. That's a de facto declaration of war. If a rogue agency in Georgia was to kill Putin, (who's actually not guarded by inept idiots, but that's beside the point,) we'd go after the rogue agents with our secret service guys; we wouldn't start a World War over that.