The Slavic Thread!

[Carmadin]

*ignores recent history conversation and goes back to hot women *

Ukies are too attractive! I'm a perfect example of that! /narcissm

@Shof: I try to follow the crowd...

Ukrainian? I prefer Kazakh more.

That was me being concieted for a joke, not my serious opinion

[Shofercia]

Great News for Pan-Slavism! Patriarch Kirill and Archbishop Josef Michalek signed a historic document, calling for unity and forgiveness between Russians and Poles:

WARSAW, Poland (AP) — The leaders of Russia's Orthodox church and Poland's Catholic church signed a document Friday that urges their nations to forgive each other for past wrongs.

The signing in Warsaw during the first visit to Poland by a Russia patriarch has been described by the churches as a historic act of reconciliation and the establishment of a bridge between the denominations.

"We appeal to our believers to ask for the forgiveness of wrongs, injustice and every evil committed against each other," the document said. "We are certain that this is the first and the most important step toward rebuilding mutual trust, which is a necessary element of a lasting community and full reconciliation between people."

The document was signed during a ceremony at Warsaw's Royal Castle by Russian Orthodox Patriarch Kirill and Archbishop Jozef Michalik, the Polish church's highest-ranking leader.

The document that Michalik and Kirill signed mentions the "open enmity, even fighting between our nations" in the past and calls for a "brotherly dialogue" in all walks of life. Church leaders said it is not another political declaration, but a religion-motivated call to the hearts and minds of ordinary people in both nations.

Kirill stressed that serving Christian religion obliged church leaders to promote the reconciliation.

Sauce: http://news.yahoo.com/russian-polish-ch ... 03109.html

I think it's pretty damn awesome

What do you guys think?

[OMGeverynameistaken]

I doubt the Poles will accept.

I've talked to maybe a dozen or so Poles online, of those, one of them had no really strong feelings because he preferred Poland under the Soviets. He said, to paraphrase, he preferred being oppressed by a heartless bureaucracy a long way away to being oppressed by a heartless theocracy at home.

The others seemed to have a pretty deep seated dislike of the Russians, as far as I could tell. To take one particular example, one fellow insisted that general Suvorov was the greatest monster of the 18th century because of Praga and Izmail. He was quite unwilling to accept that the massacres which took place in both instances were quite within the standard practice of the 18th century, since neither city was willing to surrender. If you force an army to storm your city, you're going to have civilian casualties.

I imagine there are similar feelings in Russia, but they probably stem from a bit further in the past.

[Shofercia]

I doubt the Poles will accept.

I've talked to maybe a dozen or so Poles online, of those, one of them had no really strong feelings because he preferred Poland under the Soviets. He said, to paraphrase, he preferred being oppressed by a heartless bureaucracy a long way away to being oppressed by a heartless theocracy at home.

The others seemed to have a pretty deep seated dislike of the Russians, as far as I could tell. To take one particular example, one fellow insisted that general Suvorov was the greatest monster of the 18th century because of Praga and Izmail. He was quite unwilling to accept that the massacres which took place in both instances were quite within the standard practice of the 18th century, since neither city was willing to surrender. If you force an army to storm your city, you're going to have civilian casualties.

I imagine there are similar feelings in Russia, but they probably stem from a bit further in the past.

Poles have already accepted. It was signed by a Russian and a Pole

And yeah, Russians aren't exactly fans of the whole Polish Intervention during the Times of Trouble, but we got over it, especially when we were fighting side by side with the Poles against Nazis.

[Voerdeland]

Great News for Pan-Slavism! Patriarch Kirill and Archbishop Josef Michalek signed a historic document, calling for unity and forgiveness between Russians and Poles:

WARSAW, Poland (AP) — The leaders of Russia's Orthodox church and Poland's Catholic church signed a document Friday that urges their nations to forgive each other for past wrongs.

The signing in Warsaw during the first visit to Poland by a Russia patriarch has been described by the churches as a historic act of reconciliation and the establishment of a bridge between the denominations.

"We appeal to our believers to ask for the forgiveness of wrongs, injustice and every evil committed against each other," the document said. "We are certain that this is the first and the most important step toward rebuilding mutual trust, which is a necessary element of a lasting community and full reconciliation between people."

The document was signed during a ceremony at Warsaw's Royal Castle by Russian Orthodox Patriarch Kirill and Archbishop Jozef Michalik, the Polish church's highest-ranking leader.

The document that Michalik and Kirill signed mentions the "open enmity, even fighting between our nations" in the past and calls for a "brotherly dialogue" in all walks of life. Church leaders said it is not another political declaration, but a religion-motivated call to the hearts and minds of ordinary people in both nations.

Kirill stressed that serving Christian religion obliged church leaders to promote the reconciliation.

Sauce: http://news.yahoo.com/russian-polish-ch ... 03109.html

I think it's pretty damn awesome

What do you guys think?

Dunno how this is viewed by ordinary Russians, but considering the atmosphere in Poland, currently there's no chance for any reconciliation, regardless of appeals from few old men in black dresses.

[Voerdeland]

Great News for Pan-Slavism! Patriarch Kirill and Archbishop Josef Michalek signed a historic document, calling for unity and forgiveness between Russians and Poles:



Sauce: http://news.yahoo.com/russian-polish-ch ... 03109.html

I think it's pretty damn awesome

What do you guys think?

Dunno how this is viewed by ordinary Russians, but considering the atmosphere in Poland, currently there's no chance for any reconciliation, regardless of appeals from few old men in black dresses.

Also, their document is full of reactionary bullshit.

[Frinskalland]

Ukrainian? I prefer Kazakh more.

That was me being concieted for a joke, not my serious opinion

Oh I know a couple of guys who are really into Ukrainian women

[Bordurian]

I doubt the Poles will accept.

I've talked to maybe a dozen or so Poles online, of those, one of them had no really strong feelings because he preferred Poland under the Soviets. He said, to paraphrase, he preferred being oppressed by a heartless bureaucracy a long way away to being oppressed by a heartless theocracy at home.

The others seemed to have a pretty deep seated dislike of the Russians, as far as I could tell. To take one particular example, one fellow insisted that general Suvorov was the greatest monster of the 18th century because of Praga and Izmail. He was quite unwilling to accept that the massacres which took place in both instances were quite within the standard practice of the 18th century, since neither city was willing to surrender. If you force an army to storm your city, you're going to have civilian casualties.

I imagine there are similar feelings in Russia, but they probably stem from a bit further in the past.

Poles have already accepted. It was signed by a Russian and a Pole

And yeah, Russians aren't exactly fans of the whole Polish Intervention during the Times of Trouble, but we got over it, especially when we were fighting side by side with the Poles against Nazis.

My family, shall never really trust most Russians. I don't feel as extreme as them. However, I have no love for the Russians.

[Lysandrion]

Actually I don't really understand what this whole "reconciliation" stuff is about. What I know from personal experience and observations, relations between individual Poles and Russians are usually quite normal. I think that most of Poles are more wary of the Russian state (especially under the peace-loving democrat Vladimir Vladimirovich) and manifestations of Russian imperialism than of the Russian people. Most of normal Poles, I mean - the really paraonid fanatics are stronger in their mouth than in their numbers, though. So in my opinion, if the governments of both states will become able to peacefully reach an understanding about contemporary issues like energetics, trade, this god-damn Smolensk affair... though I am not sure if it is possible to reach any sensible understanding with an autocrat like Putin, who seems to expect that the whole world will humbly fold to his demandings. Especially when there are wishy-washy weaklings on the other side of the table.

[Shofercia]

Actually I don't really understand what this whole "reconciliation" stuff is about. What I know from personal experience and observations, relations between individual Poles and Russians are usually quite normal. I think that most of Poles are more wary of the Russian state (especially under the peace-loving democrat Vladimir Vladimirovich) and manifestations of Russian imperialism than of the Russian people. Most of normal Poles, I mean - the really paraonid fanatics are stronger in their mouth than in their numbers, though. So in my opinion, if the governments of both states will become able to peacefully reach an understanding about contemporary issues like energetics, trade, this god-damn Smolensk affair... though I am not sure if it is possible to reach any sensible understanding with an autocrat like Putin, who seems to expect that the whole world will humbly fold to his demandings. Especially when there are wishy-washy weaklings on the other side of the table.

I agree with you, most Russians and Poles have no problems, but some rabid nationalists, on both sides need to shut up. "You invaded us during the Time of Troubles!" "Yeah, well you partitioned us four times!" "Yeah well..." "No U!"

So I agree with ya

In terms of the Smolensk Affair, the Russians returned it to Poland, but if there's anything else we can do, let us know, and we'll gladly do it. It's a horrible tragedy that affected both sides, and should be handled efficiently by both sides.

In terms of Putin - it's the only part of your post that I disagree. We love Putin. He's not the greatest leader, (that Honor belongs to Alexander Nevsky,) but he is the best leader we've had since Csar Alexander the Liberator. And there aren't many Russians left to reminiscence over his role, since it ended in 1881. The leaders since then just haven't been up to the task, except Putin, and arguably Medvedev.

The policies of the last two Romanovs drove us to rebellion, so they're bad. Lenin signed the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk, and later was unable to keep Stalin from coming to power. Stalin had the Gulags, Purges and Collectivization. Brezhnev redefined stagnation. Gorbachev wrecked the country. Yeltsin wrecked Russia again. So really, the only Soviet leader that comes close to Putin is Khrushchev, but he was couped, which led to Brezhnev's disastrous rule. USSR thrive in spite of the terrible leadership on top, not because of it.

And we know that Putin isn't angelic. However, Putin repossess money that the Yeltsin cronies stole from Russia's Natural Resources, (some call it stealing, I don't,) wins wars, the economy under Putin has been improving, and his policies generally help the people, at the expense of the super-rich, which I'm ok with. Sure he's not as pro-freedom as I'd like him to be, but what other Russian leader, after Csar Alexander II, except Medvedev, was more pro-freedom than Putin, and didn't wreck the country? Cause if you have no country, freedom's pointless, as you'll just be killed by a mob, and your death won't be investigated.

In terms of foreign policy, I think there's a lot of hype, and none of the hype covers Putin's intent. For instance, Putin likes Pan-Slavism, and sooner or later, he'll have to adopt the modern version, which involves all countries being treated as equals. Russia had a chance to be the dominant Pan-Slavic power, but lost it because the youthful Csar was foolish enough to trust the Brits. Yes you Csar Alexander I.

Today - the only way that Pan-Slavism can thrive, is that everyone must have an equal say, and Putin needs to understand that, and I think he will. How has Putin been Imperialist towards Poland, aside from blocking NATO's Missile "Defense"?

[Lysandrion]

We love Putin. He's not the greatest leader, (that Honor belongs to Alexander Nevsky,) but he is the best leader we've had since Csar Alexander the Liberator.

I have no doubt that many, many people in Russia do love him - have seen evidence - and agree that, in terms of efficiency, he is better than most of Russian leaders in last decades. What is more, I assume that this is at least partially because of his less democratic attitude than e.g. Gorbachev - who started reforms from the wrong side (he tried to start with freeing everyone - and then he was not allowed to do the rest. Deng in China was much smarter). My personal view is that the country with strong autoritharian traditions (and Russia definitely has such traditions) should not immediately jump into the deep democracy (and vice versa) as I do not perceive democracy as the universally best and a must-have system. What i say is that as an autocrat, Putin can be really a pain-in-the-ass as a partner for other governments.

wins wars

Which is never something your neighbours like to see .

and his policies generally help the people, at the expense of the super-rich,

This is something I cannot properly judge, as I have never lived in Russia, but from the distant perspective it looks like he pretty much relies on 'oligarchs' (though maybe not as strongly as they rely on his favour), but knowing he cannot trust them, from time to time decides to sacrifice one or two big fish in order to frighten the rest and satisfy the people's need for social justice. Still, the wealth gap in Russia seems quite frightening.

For instance, Putin likes Pan-Slavism, and sooner or later, he'll have to adopt the modern version, which involves all countries being treated as equals.

I am sure he likes it - as any sensible Russian leader, but i am sceptical about him adopting the modern version of it. I was never really convinced to the whole idea, as it seemed disturbingly similar to "the Tzar as the protector of Orthodox faith all over the world" stuff (being an excuse to meddling in domestic affairs of Russia's neighbours). Anyway, I doubt if Putin would really accept the idea of equality in the Pan-Slavic movement (though he is smart enough to make such declarations). He is the leader of Russia, he is not a freedom-lover and he's not the type who sacrifices interests for ideas - good for him, possibly good for Russians, but not so good for the rest.

How has Putin been Imperialist towards Poland, aside from blocking NATO's Missile "Defense"?

I didn't say he was directly imperialist towards Poland, but that the Poles are wary of traditional Russian imperialism, which in the past used to be a feature of Russian politics. And Putin's regime sometimes reminds us about it with its actions - missile-shield is one thing (though understandable - Putin dislikes the shield as much as I dislike Russian missiles in Kaliningrad), then we had clashes about the natural gas delivering in the past years, minor incidents like "the polish meat affair"... And Russian pilots from time to time playing Top Gun over some baltic republics. These may not be great atrocities, but with other nations in the region we do not have such trouble. And even if we have, well - they are usually much smaller than Russian Federation .

[Bordurian]

How has Putin been Imperialist towards Poland, aside from blocking NATO's Missile "Defense"?

I didn't say he was directly imperialist towards Poland, but that the Poles are wary of traditional Russian imperialism, which in the past used to be a feature of Russian politics. And Putin's regime sometimes reminds us about it with its actions - missile-shield is one thing (though understandable - Putin dislikes the shield as much as I dislike Russian missiles in Kaliningrad), then we had clashes about the natural gas delivering in the past years, minor incidents like "the polish meat affair"... And Russian pilots from time to time playing Top Gun over some baltic republics. These may not be great atrocities, but with other nations in the region we do not have such trouble. And even if we have, well - they are usually much smaller than Russian Federation .

Poles hold (I can only speak for my family) resentment towards the Russians for the years of communism they had to endure. They also (I can speak for most at this point) view Russians as agressors that provoke the Poles.

[Lysandrion]

Poles hold (I can only speak for my family) resentment towards the Russians for the years of communism they had to endure.

Ithink there is something more than just that. Through the ages Poles and Russians were very much like the two sides of the same Slavic coin. Both nations have built significant, ambitious - and rivaling - political organisms*, though based on different cultural and ideological basis. Too close, too similar, too different. It is like the long-time family quarrel - and everyone knows that conflicts between relatives are the most fierce ones.

*When we speak about the Rzeczpospolita, we should not forget about Lithuanians - though they do not seem very proud of this common heritage, so - whatever.

[Bordurian]

Poles hold (I can only speak for my family) resentment towards the Russians for the years of communism they had to endure.

Ithink there is something more than just that. Through the ages Poles and Russians were very much like the two sides of the same Slavic coin. Both nations have built significant, ambitious - and rivaling - political organisms*, though based on different cultural and ideological basis. Too close, too similar, too different. It is like the long-time family quarrel - and everyone knows that conflicts between relatives are the most fierce ones.

*When we speak about the Rzeczpospolita, we should not forget about Lithuanians - though they do not seem very proud of this common heritage, so - whatever.

Polish legend even goes back to the founding of the nation by Lech. His brother, Rus. He, founded Russia according to legend. You raise a good point about the Lithuanians. Pilsudski was born in modern Lithuania. Their current capital Vilinus (Wilno) was once a Polish city.

[UnitedMacedonia]

greeting from Macedonia
love your thread just slow down a bit with the war posts and more with the girls please

[SynTech]

I love the Slavic people and the culture. Great people that have stuck together through thick and thin throughout history. And that's not even mentioning the women. Slavic women are definitely some of the most beautiful women in the world, up there with the Scandinavians.

Scandinavians And current Croats and Bosnians have same genetic marker, scientificly recently prooved. Some kidn of distant brothers.

[Bordurian]

I love the Slavic people and the culture. Great people that have stuck together through thick and thin throughout history. And that's not even mentioning the women. Slavic women are definitely some of the most beautiful women in the world, up there with the Scandinavians.

Scandinavians And current Croats and Bosnians have same genetic marker, scientificly recently prooved. Some kidn of distant brothers.

Like Hungarians, Finns, and Estonians.

[Shofercia]

We love Putin. He's not the greatest leader, (that Honor belongs to Alexander Nevsky,) but he is the best leader we've had since Csar Alexander the Liberator.

I have no doubt that many, many people in Russia do love him - have seen evidence - and agree that, in terms of efficiency, he is better than most of Russian leaders in last decades. What is more, I assume that this is at least partially because of his less democratic attitude than e.g. Gorbachev - who started reforms from the wrong side (he tried to start with freeing everyone - and then he was not allowed to do the rest. Deng in China was much smarter). My personal view is that the country with strong autoritharian traditions (and Russia definitely has such traditions) should not immediately jump into the deep democracy (and vice versa) as I do not perceive democracy as the universally best and a must-have system. What i say is that as an autocrat, Putin can be really a pain-in-the-ass as a partner for other governments.

Thank you for the response. The thing about Gorbachev and Yeltsin, is that under them, human rights in Russia weren't universal. Sure you had human rights apply to a large segment of the population, but even more were left without them, and I'd rather have some human rights for all people, than all human rights for some people. Of course I'd rather have all human rights for all people, but that's not an option in Russia right now.

wins wars

Which is never something your neighbours like to see .

How about this: Putin doesn't start wars

and his policies generally help the people, at the expense of the super-rich,

This is something I cannot properly judge, as I have never lived in Russia, but from the distant perspective it looks like he pretty much relies on 'oligarchs' (though maybe not as strongly as they rely on his favour), but knowing he cannot trust them, from time to time decides to sacrifice one or two big fish in order to frighten the rest and satisfy the people's need for social justice. Still, the wealth gap in Russia seems quite frightening.

Not necessarily - he forces oligarchs to pay taxes, and ties industries, such as GAZPROM, to the Government, meaning that instead of the super-rich pocketing quite a bit of GAZPROM's profits, as is the case with Halliburton in the US, the profits go on to help out Russian Social Services, like providing free education and a stipend for students. The rich who pay luxury taxes do well, others don't, so if you're paying taxes and not killing people for profit, and not harshly exploiting your workers, or stealing from UR/CPRF/LDPR/FR, then you're ok as an Oligarch in Russia.

For instance, Putin likes Pan-Slavism, and sooner or later, he'll have to adopt the modern version, which involves all countries being treated as equals.

I am sure he likes it - as any sensible Russian leader, but i am sceptical about him adopting the modern version of it. I was never really convinced to the whole idea, as it seemed disturbingly similar to "the Tzar as the protector of Orthodox faith all over the world" stuff (being an excuse to meddling in domestic affairs of Russia's neighbours). Anyway, I doubt if Putin would really accept the idea of equality in the Pan-Slavic movement (though he is smart enough to make such declarations). He is the leader of Russia, he is not a freedom-lover and he's not the type who sacrifices interests for ideas - good for him, possibly good for Russians, but not so good for the rest.

Thing is, there's no way that Russia can expand into Eastern Europe at the present. And it would be pointless for Russia to do so. Russia cannot dominate Poland, as was the case under the Warsaw Pact. Russia can't attack the Czech Republic on a whim. The reason that Russia was a bit paranoid about Eastern Europe, is because Russia has generally been invaded though Easter Europe. If we can defend each other as Slavic Brothers, than there's no need for us to be that paranoid, and no need for us to attack each other.

How has Putin been Imperialist towards Poland, aside from blocking NATO's Missile "Defense"?

I didn't say he was directly imperialist towards Poland, but that the Poles are wary of traditional Russian imperialism, which in the past used to be a feature of Russian politics. And Putin's regime sometimes reminds us about it with its actions - missile-shield is one thing (though understandable - Putin dislikes the shield as much as I dislike Russian missiles in Kaliningrad), then we had clashes about the natural gas delivering in the past years, minor incidents like "the polish meat affair"... And Russian pilots from time to time playing Top Gun over some baltic republics. These may not be great atrocities, but with other nations in the region we do not have such trouble. And even if we have, well - they are usually much smaller than Russian Federation .

Ahh, Natural Gas, good times

Russia: "Ukraine, pay for gas!"
Ukraine: "Never!"
Russia: "Ok, we stop gas delivery!"
Ukraine: "We'll steal whats left!"
Rest of Europe: "Fuuuck, we're cooold!"

Polish meat affair - haven't heard of it, but if Anishenko was involved, I'm sorry in advance

In terms of Top Gun over Baltics - why is that an issue for you guys? And we only do it to governments that are very unfriendly to ours.

[Viet Trung]

Any Yugoslavs in here?

[Disserbia]

I love the Slavic people and the culture. Great people that have stuck together through thick and thin throughout history. And that's not even mentioning the women. Slavic women are definitely some of the most beautiful women in the world, up there with the Scandinavians.

Scandinavians And current Croats and Bosnians have same genetic marker, scientificly recently prooved. Some kidn of distant brothers.

Wouldn't that depend on how the cookie crumbles? Also can you link me to it. I'm not trying to start a debate I'm actually genuinely curious about this.

Thing is, there's no way that Russia can expand into Eastern Europe at the present. And it would be pointless for Russia to do so. Russia cannot dominate Poland, as was the case under the Warsaw Pact. Russia can't attack the Czech Republic on a whim. The reason that Russia was a bit paranoid about Eastern Europe, is because Russia has generally been invaded though Easter Europe. If we can defend each other as Slavic Brothers, than there's no need for us to be that paranoid, and no need for us to attack each other.

How big of a legitimate concern do you think that is. I guess it would have to do with what happens with the EU, but I think Europe has other threats now. That being said that system of alliance would be pretty effective, so I guess it shouldn't be changed unless it could be improved upon, it all depends on how close you'd want to be with west europe.

[Scooby Doo and Friends]

Some Polish blood here. After reading several books on the Polish-Soviet War following the First World War, Stalin's outright refusal to assist Polish insurgencies throughout the country to regain independence from the Third Reich, and the Soviet betrayal of Eastern Europe at large, I have come to know the way Russian governments have operated since the Tsardom have been wholly built on achieving hegemony.

From August to October in 1944, Operation Tempest, or what is more commonly referred to as the Warsaw Uprising commenced. The Polish Armia Krajowa (Home Army) fought alone and with almost no outside support against the Third Reich. Even as the Byelorussian Front of the Soviet military approached, they did very little to help their supposed allies. Great Britain and the United States alike wished to provide them with supplies on many occasions, however the Soviets forbade it. The Soviets did make a small number of 'drops', however these were done without parachutes and most of the goods were damaged or unusable. The British did manage to deliver by air a small number of specially trained commandos along with parts and blueprints for designing clandestine weapons, although it would prove fruitless. The Polish eventually surrendered after three months of heavy fighting while the Soviets waited at the Vistula. Once the Germans exited the city completely after it had been virtually obliterated, the 'liberating' communist army occupied what remained and officially established socialist rule in Poland.

Oh, and to this day the Russian Government denies any participation in the murder of well over a thousand Polish troops and officers in the Katyn Forest.



I have no problem with the Russian people. Just their government.

[Voerdeland]

Some Polish blood here. After reading several books on the Polish-Soviet War following the First World War, Stalin's outright refusal to assist Polish insurgencies throughout the country

No, it was only in Warsaw. In other regions of Poland (such as Lithuania or Belarus ) the Red Army actually assisted the rebels. As soon as the Germans were pulled out of the particular area, however, the Soviets forced the partisans to join the new Polish army. Those who refused were arrested and either sent to labour camps or shot.

Oh, and to this day the Russian Government denies any participation in the murder of well over a thousand Polish troops and officers in the Katyn Forest.

About 20 thousand, to be exact.

[Shofercia]

Some Polish blood here. After reading several books on the Polish-Soviet War following the First World War, Stalin's outright refusal to assist Polish insurgencies throughout the country to regain independence from the Third Reich, and the Soviet betrayal of Eastern Europe at large, I have come to know the way Russian governments have operated since the Tsardom have been wholly built on achieving hegemony.

From August to October in 1944, Operation Tempest, or what is more commonly referred to as the Warsaw Uprising commenced. The Polish Armia Krajowa (Home Army) fought alone and with almost no outside support against the Third Reich. Even as the Byelorussian Front of the Soviet military approached, they did very little to help their supposed allies. Great Britain and the United States alike wished to provide them with supplies on many occasions, however the Soviets forbade it. The Soviets did make a small number of 'drops', however these were done without parachutes and most of the goods were damaged or unusable. The British did manage to deliver by air a small number of specially trained commandos along with parts and blueprints for designing clandestine weapons, although it would prove fruitless. The Polish eventually surrendered after three months of heavy fighting while the Soviets waited at the Vistula. Once the Germans exited the city completely after it had been virtually obliterated, the 'liberating' communist army occupied what remained and officially established socialist rule in Poland.

Oh, and to this day the Russian Government denies any participation in the murder of well over a thousand Polish troops and officers in the Katyn Forest.

(Image)

I have no problem with the Russian people. Just their government.

That's incorrect. First: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/no ... n-massacre
Second: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... sacre.html

From the Guardian Article, since I like it more:

In a symbolic admission of guilt, Russia's parliament has declared that Joseph Stalin ordered his secret police to execute 22,000 Polish army officers and civilians in 1940, in one of the greatest mass murders of the 20th century...In the wake of the crash, Russia's prime minister, Vladimir Putin, made unequivocal statements about Soviet responsibility for the Katyn massacre and urged reconciliation. Historian Natalya Lebedeva, a Russian member of the two countries' intergovernmental commission on "especially complex questions", told the Guardian that Putin's words had helped the healing process. "Both Russia and Poland realise it is time to stop the confrontations," she added...A change to pro-Russian leadership in Ukraine and the prospect of Russia joining the US missile defence shield also helped. "On a human level, Poles were also very touched by so many Russians coming to our embassy in Moscow to show sympathy after the Smolensk disaster," he added.

In terms of the Warsaw Uprising, the Red Army couldn't assist as they were tired. Breaching the river, while unprepared, would've meant massive casualties. The Russians have just destroyed Army Group Center, and were now against another Army Group, that already fortified.



The Russians needed to rest up before continuing. They also needed to replenish supplies. Not until January was the Red Army combat ready to once again resume offensives. And Churchill was a major douche bag here, because he knew that the Red Army was in no position to assist, and yet he gave the "go ahead" anyways. UK attaches were with the Red Army - they saw the condition. You don't just maul Nazi Germany's best Army Group, in a majorly successful offensive, without needing a massive break after the mission. The Red Army needed 5 months. Additionally, offensives that were previously launched with poor preparation, like Operation Mars, ended up being disastrous.

And I partially agree with Voerdeland:

No, it was only in Warsaw. In other regions of Poland (such as Lithuania or Belarus ) the Red Army actually assisted the rebels.

although I'm not sure if Belarus and Lithuania are parts of Poland

[Voerdeland]

although I'm not sure if Belarus and Lithuania are parts of Poland

They were before the war, and moving the Polish border slightly to the east of the Curzon line was seriously considered by the allies. Also, Vilnius and surrounding areas (Wileńszczyzna in Polish) have a large Polish minority, but that's yet another difficult political issue.

[Shofercia]

Thing is, there's no way that Russia can expand into Eastern Europe at the present. And it would be pointless for Russia to do so. Russia cannot dominate Poland, as was the case under the Warsaw Pact. Russia can't attack the Czech Republic on a whim. The reason that Russia was a bit paranoid about Eastern Europe, is because Russia has generally been invaded though Easter Europe. If we can defend each other as Slavic Brothers, than there's no need for us to be that paranoid, and no need for us to attack each other.

How big of a legitimate concern do you think that is. I guess it would have to do with what happens with the EU, but I think Europe has other threats now. That being said that system of alliance would be pretty effective, so I guess it shouldn't be changed unless it could be improved upon, it all depends on how close you'd want to be with west europe.

Imagine if this alliance existed in 1938. Hitler invades Czechoslovakia, all of the Slavs rise up against him. We get a radically different World. No massive purges for the Red Army, and the Slavs are counterattacking, so Germany's screwed. UK/France/US are pacifists. I doubt Il Duce would have been able to do much. Czechoslovakia would be united, and the 1968 government would be encourages by the USSR, not suppressed by the USSR. Yugoslavia would be united, and would spend more energy figuring out how to stay united, and less energy on fighting foreign aggression. It'd be a radically different World.

Russian borders have always been a major concern. Be it the Mongols, the Poles, the French, the Germans, etc, Russia gets invaded quite often. Currently, the borders are split into several organizational fronts: Mainland European & Finnish-European, Caucasian, Chinese West, Stan Border, Chinese East, Pacific, Arctic. Last invasion was in 1999, by IIPB, but Western Media doesn't talk about that, because it humiliates Gorbachev/Yeltsin. "Welcome President Putin, and, oh yeah, we're being invaded, again!"

It's a major concern. Do we want into the EU? Fuck no. Unlike other states that are clamoring to get in, we would say "neyt" even if we were invited on much better terms. This is because we don't want to be tied to the Euro, we don't want another parliament, we don't want more inefficient bureaucracy, and whatever we need can be covered by the Russo-Schengen Agreement, by the WTO, and by other similar international treaties, and the Council of Europe, and the United Nations.

Personally, I think that with a few exceptions, like Italy, Russia's a lot closer to Eastern Europe than Western Europe. And such an alliance, that's only defensive in nature, would benefit all sides, and wouldn't infringe on other freedoms.