Understanding Leftist Mentality

[Jinos]

You don't need reports or studies to know that if people are giving money for nothing, they have less incentive to work. That being said, there are LOTS of cases of people who don't work because they don't want the alternative of trying to find work on their own, even if they are capable of it. Whether it's heroin addicts in Europe being given allowance by the government (not because they are addicts but because they are unemployed) or people in the US who don't want to milk the welfare system even though they have jobs, people are going to abuse anything that is free. You can't assume that welfare will only be given to the truly needy because it never is.

Of course I don't assume that welfare will only be given to the truly needy. What I know is that there are more truly needy benefiting from it than heroin addicts or those that want to "milk the system", unless you have evidence to the contrary. The good, if you will, outweighs the bad.

And no, cutting off welfare is not going to help those people whose bootstraps have been cut short by the nature of current society. It isn't going to help those facing discrimination (because of race, age or because they just got out of prison), those with a disability, those that are unlucky or those just in a place where there is no work. Major changes are needed in society to address the conditions that make so that there will always be people unemployed, regardless of their desire to work. Welfare does not create those conditions, it provides a safety net to ensure those adversely affected by those conditions have a chance to get to a better situation.

And yes they may have less incentive to work - slightly. Welfare doesn't (at least where I'm from) pay for a luxurious or even comfortable life.You want even an average quality life - yeah, welfare isn't paying for that. In Australia at the moment if you live in a capital city an unemployment benefit, with maximum rent assistant, will leave you practically nothing after rent, bills and just enough food get by.

There's no investment because third world industries can't compete globally and get hammered or taken over by multinational corporations.

At that point the World Bank makes big loans the governments of those developing nations, loans with big strings attached, like "Privatize your natural resources" and then mutlinationals come in to take over.

Free trade and predatory lending/debt control has destroyed many nations, like Jamaica.

[Yandere Schoolgirls]

You don't have to keep your savings in the dollar or any other sort of fiat currency; you can leave your savings in precious metals such as gold, silver or platinum, and as of matter of fact that is what I would suggest to anyone who plans on saving.

precious metals have no fixed value.

Nothing does, but precious metals have always been valuable throughout human society and make an excellent medium of trade. Gold and silver are easy to carry, aren't susceptible to high amounts of inflation and last for a very long time which is why it's a lot more reliable and economical than paper or plastic money.

You are trolling. As for the stupid claim that if the government is good enough, people will be able to save, it is wrong. Not all jobs pay well.

It's not a stupid claim. You're looking at the now, and you aren't realizing the cause of poverty or poor wages. Which are almost always due to government intervention in domestic market with little to no exceptions.

[Rick Rollin]

Of course I don't assume that welfare will only be given to the truly needy. What I know is that there are more truly needy benefiting from it than heroin addicts or those that want to "milk the system", unless you have evidence to the contrary. The good, if you will, outweighs the bad.

And no, cutting off welfare is not going to help those people whose bootstraps have been cut short by the nature of current society. It isn't going to help those facing discrimination (because of race, age or because they just got out of prison), those with a disability, those that are unlucky or those just in a place where there is no work. Major changes are needed in society to address the conditions that make so that there will always be people unemployed, regardless of their desire to work. Welfare does not create those conditions, it provides a safety net to ensure those adversely affected by those conditions have a chance to get to a better situation.

And yes they may have less incentive to work - slightly. Welfare doesn't (at least where I'm from) pay for a luxurious or even comfortable life.You want even an average quality life - yeah, welfare isn't paying for that. In Australia at the moment if you live in a capital city an unemployment benefit, with maximum rent assistant, will leave you practically nothing after rent, bills and just enough food get by.

There's no investment because third world industries can't compete globally and get hammered or taken over by multinational corporations.

At that point the World Bank makes big loans the governments of those developing nations, loans with big strings attached, like "Privatize your natural resources" and then mutlinationals come in to take over.

Free trade and predatory lending/debt control has destroyed many nations, like Jamaica.

Explain.

precious metals have no fixed value.

Nothing does, but precious metals have always been valuable throughout human society and make an excellent medium of trade. Gold and silver are easy to carry, aren't susceptible to high amounts of inflation and last for a very long time which is why it's a lot more reliable and economical than paper or plastic money.

Then why did we switch? Because what you are saying is a lie.

You are trolling. As for the stupid claim that if the government is good enough, people will be able to save, it is wrong. Not all jobs pay well.

It's not a stupid claim. You're looking at the now, and you aren't realizing the cause of poverty or poor wages. Which are almost always due to government intervention in domestic market with little to no exceptions.

There are many exceptions.

[Yandere Schoolgirls]

Then why did we switch? Because what you are saying is a lie.

Because having an elastic money supply is an easy way to tax people without them knowing it since taxes are generally unpopular.

[The Black Forrest]

I love being a welfare queen, don't you?

No. I'd have to get a sex change to be a queen.

I'll have to do with Eternal Welfare Emperor.

Well? You can still be a queen even though you are male

[The Black Forrest]

precious metals have no fixed value.

Nothing does, but precious metals have always been valuable throughout human society and make an excellent medium of trade. Gold and silver are easy to carry, aren't susceptible to high amounts of inflation and last for a very long time which is why it's a lot more reliable and economical than paper or plastic money.

You are trolling. As for the stupid claim that if the government is good enough, people will be able to save, it is wrong. Not all jobs pay well.

It's not a stupid claim. You're looking at the now, and you aren't realizing the cause of poverty or poor wages. Which are almost always due to government intervention in domestic market with little to no exceptions.

Problem is they can be artifically propped up. Before we didn't have the level of communication which allows interests to move on new mines when discovered. For example DeBeers......

[Yandere Schoolgirls]

Nothing does, but precious metals have always been valuable throughout human society and make an excellent medium of trade. Gold and silver are easy to carry, aren't susceptible to high amounts of inflation and last for a very long time which is why it's a lot more reliable and economical than paper or plastic money.



It's not a stupid claim. You're looking at the now, and you aren't realizing the cause of poverty or poor wages. Which are almost always due to government intervention in domestic market with little to no exceptions.

Problem is they can be artifically propped up. Before we didn't have the level of communication which allows interests to move on new mines when discovered. For example DeBeers......

And your savings being worth more, because some one for whatever reason decided to destroy a bunch of gold is bad because?

[The Black Forrest]

Problem is they can be artifically propped up. Before we didn't have the level of communication which allows interests to move on new mines when discovered. For example DeBeers......

And your savings being worth more, because some one for whatever reason decided to destroy a bunch of gold is bad because?

And the market get's flooded with gold and your savings goes *poof*......

[Socialdemokraterne]

You do realize that not every household has enough income to support the family inside, pay the bills, and establish a nice emergency fund on the side, right?

The answer to your rant is quite simple. Savings. Saving is a healthy habit that cushions people in the case of a major catastrophic event. So yes, if you were suddenly injured, laid off or became ill it was due to yours or an another persons bad habits or lack of good habits. Which is why a society that encourages good habits through the lack of state power and the increase individual power is desirable.

You missed a part of my rant. A very important one.

[AiliailiA]

Then why did we switch? Because what you are saying is a lie.

Because having an elastic money supply is an easy way to tax people without them knowing it since taxes are generally unpopular.

So it's a 2.7% annual tax on holding cash. Big whoop. Serves you right for being stupid enough to hold cash.

[Yandere Schoolgirls]

And your savings being worth more, because some one for whatever reason decided to destroy a bunch of gold is bad because?

And the market get's flooded with gold and your savings goes *poof*......

Wait, I think we're both on a different subject. The market isn't going to be flooded with a spikes of new gold since gold is being mined at a rather constant rate, and all of the easy to acquire gold has already been found.

[AiliailiA]

Mining gold is a huge waste of human effort. There are massive surpluses of it which exist out-of-the-ground but aren't being used for anything (like jewelry or electrical contacts), but we keep digging up more because people think it should be valuable.

[Yandere Schoolgirls]

Mining gold is a huge waste of human effort. There are massive surpluses of it which exist out-of-the-ground but aren't being used for anything (like jewelry or electrical contacts), but we keep digging up more because people think it should be valuable.

It is valuable though, so I don't quite get where you're going with this

[Grave_n_idle]

Mining gold is a huge waste of human effort. There are massive surpluses of it which exist out-of-the-ground but aren't being used for anything (like jewelry or electrical contacts), but we keep digging up more because people think it should be valuable.

It is valuable though, so I don't quite get where you're going with this

It has utility, but it's value is really determined by artificially imposed rarity. Which is why it's a ridiculously bad idea to try to base 'value 'on it - as anyone who has paid any attention to history should know.

[Yandere Schoolgirls]

It is valuable though, so I don't quite get where you're going with this

It has utility, but it's value is really determined by artificially imposed rarity. Which is why it's a ridiculously bad idea to try to base 'value 'on it - as anyone who has paid any attention to history should know.

It's not an artificially imposed rarity, and I really don't see where you're going with this? We place values on everything from cars to cellphone.

[Risottia]

It's not an artificially imposed rarity

Yes it is artificial. Most of the gold that has been mined is stored in bank caveaus and not utilized. Just kept artificially out of the market.

[Trotskylvania]

It has utility, but it's value is really determined by artificially imposed rarity. Which is why it's a ridiculously bad idea to try to base 'value 'on it - as anyone who has paid any attention to history should know.

It's not an artificially imposed rarity, and I really don't see where you're going with this? We place values on everything from cars to cellphone.

Cellphones and cars permit other productive economic activities, and generally raise the happiness and well-being for those who have them. A lump of gold on someone's ring finger, on the other hand, will provide a short-term, dubious happiness, and then probably sit in a jewelry box gathering dust, never once having actually made someone's life better, or improved the total level of happiness or productivity of society.

[Laerod]

It has utility, but it's value is really determined by artificially imposed rarity. Which is why it's a ridiculously bad idea to try to base 'value 'on it - as anyone who has paid any attention to history should know.

It's not an artificially imposed rarity, and I really don't see where you're going with this? We place values on everything from cars to cellphone.

And real estate and tulips. What could possibly go wrong?

[Grave_n_idle]

It's not an artificially imposed rarity, and I really don't see where you're going with this? We place values on everything from cars to cellphone.

Indeed, we do. Which is why it would be just as silly to index currency against cars or cellphones.

[AiliailiA]

It's not an artificially imposed rarity, and I really don't see where you're going with this? We place values on everything from cars to cellphone.

Cellphones and cars permit other productive economic activities, and generally raise the happiness and well-being for those who have them. A lump of gold on someone's ring finger, on the other hand, will provide a short-term, dubious happiness, and then probably sit in a jewelry box gathering dust, never once having actually made someone's life better, or improved the total level of happiness or productivity of society.

Gold for jewelry I acknowledge as being a use. I personally find it an unattractive metal but if other people like it and get pleasure from wearing it, well fine.

Wikipedia tells me 165,000 metric tons of gold have been mined in human history. That's 35 grams for each man woman and child on earth now (about US$ 1750 worth).

[Yandere Schoolgirls]

It's not an artificially imposed rarity, and I really don't see where you're going with this? We place values on everything from cars to cellphone.

Cellphones and cars permit other productive economic activities, and generally raise the happiness and well-being for those who have them. A lump of gold on someone's ring finger, on the other hand, will provide a short-term, dubious happiness, and then probably sit in a jewelry box gathering dust, never once having actually made someone's life better, or improved the total level of happiness or productivity of society.

You don't understand, Gold and silver have demand as a currency because of their reliability and have been generally used as a preferred medium of transaction since the dawn of civilization.

edit* Also, I would like to add that anyone in their right minds would prefer gold to paper currency which consistently loses values as it is inflated

[Our Most Resplendent Goddess Sen]

Gold is worth money because people think it's worth money, just like everything else people attach price tags to. It has no inherent value because the very idea of value is a human social construct. In fact, if the niceties of civilization were stripped away it would be valued less than goddamned near everything else (including paper money) because its only practical use for an average person is that of a paperweight. Gold fanatics love to go on about how it will still be worth something when the fiat monetary system collapses, but in the case of that sort of societal collapse I sure as fuck wouldn't take gold in exchange for something useful like food or tools or ammunition, and I really doubt anybody else would either. Fuck, I'd take paper money first because I could at least burn it.

[Khadgar]

Cellphones and cars permit other productive economic activities, and generally raise the happiness and well-being for those who have them. A lump of gold on someone's ring finger, on the other hand, will provide a short-term, dubious happiness, and then probably sit in a jewelry box gathering dust, never once having actually made someone's life better, or improved the total level of happiness or productivity of society.

You don't understand, Gold and silver have demand as a currency because of their reliability and have been generally used as a preferred medium of transaction since the dawn of civilization.

edit* Also, I would like to add that anyone in their right minds would prefer gold to paper currency which consistently loses values as it is inflated

Anyone in their right minds knows that gold coinage can be cut with other metals, thus devaluing the currency. It's not even a new trick.

[Yandere Schoolgirls]

Anyone in their right minds knows that gold coinage can be cut with other metals, thus devaluing the currency. It's not even a new trick.

Sure, but you can't whim a billion ounces of gold into existence in one day, but you can whim a billion dollars into existence

[New England and The Maritimes]

Anyone in their right minds knows that gold coinage can be cut with other metals, thus devaluing the currency. It's not even a new trick.

Sure, but you can't whim a billion ounces of gold into existence in one day, but you can whim a billion dollars into existence

So you want the world economy to collapse in a deflationary crisis because... gold makes it more difficult to expand the money supply, imposing needless limits on growth? Why do you hate capitalism?