Liberal, conservative, etc... meaningless words?

[Hayteria]

For my 500th post on the new board I figured I'd retry a topic I've tried a couple times before... ideology labels. Or, more specifically, cliched ideology labels so often used to associate large numbers of separate opinions with each other at the same time. ("Liberal" and "conservative" would be the first to come to my mind.) What they supposedly mean seems to depend on who you ask.

Some would claim that the difference is in traditionalism, as in that "conservatism" is traditional, that "liberals" diverge from tradition. Well, for this to work, first you must make a claim as to what "traditionalism" is, which often falls back on "doing what our ancestors did"; and even then, it depends on which era of ancestors you're referring to. What's considered "traditional" seems to change over time, ironically. But even then, that would suggest that at the very least, diverging from what's considered "liberal" isn't necessarily "conservative"; not agreeing with the opinions associated with liberalism doesn't automatically suggest traditionalist intentions; if anything it may suggest one's even less conventional in their thinking.

Others would claim that the idea isn't so much that "liberalism" is untraditional as that "liberal" traditions emphasize equality and "conservative" traditions emphasize the avoidance of "socialist policy"; even that would depend on what one would then consider equality, as some would find it fairer to spread the wealth, others claim it's fairer to let resources go where they tend to. But even then, there's some who are considered "conservative" who've implemented some policies arguably more "socialist" then their "liberal" predecessors, like how in the US, George W. Bush supposedly increased federal government spending more than Bill Clinton did, and increased the federal government's role in education. At the very least, it depends on what aspects of policy one's referring to.

Isn't it better to look at ideas on their own merits, rather than for what semi-meaningful word can be slapped on them?

[The Black Forrest]

They should be.

In the US; the Cons have turned liberal into a dirty word.

But I don't mind it as it's a good way to identify the troggies......

[Basement-Cat]

'Progressive' is the most meaningless word of all time.

[UnhealthyTruthseeker]

Labels lead to a collectivistic mindset. We begin to be incapable of debating policy and only debate party X vs. party Y. This point has been reached in America. Republicans are against Democrat ideas because Democrats proposed them, and vice versa. Notice how one can't criticize a right wing talking point without being automatically assumed to be an "Obama worshiper."

[Peddieville]

Basically, labels are a way of arguing with out having to make sense. Opponent's logic unfailable? Got ethics on his side? Call him a socialist, or a facist.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

Labels lead to a collectivistic mindset. We begin to be incapable of debating policy and only debate party X vs. party Y. This point has been reached in America. Republicans are against Democrat ideas because Democrats proposed them, and vice versa. Notice how one can't criticize a right wing talking point without being automatically assumed to be an "Obama worshiper."

The problem with that reasoning is that, as the social entities that we are, we use labels all the time. I think only a chosen few can forgo them. The collective mindset is already in full swing, UT.

[Hayteria]

Labels lead to a collectivistic mindset. We begin to be incapable of debating policy and only debate party X vs. party Y. This point has been reached in America. Republicans are against Democrat ideas because Democrats proposed them, and vice versa. Notice how one can't criticize a right wing talking point without being automatically assumed to be an "Obama worshiper."

Ugh, I hate the one. Like how people who support public healthcare are straw-manned as supporting Obama even though they claim it's not about Obama himself but about public healthcare?

[Soyut]

Meh, religion, political parties, same bullshit.

[UnhealthyTruthseeker]

The problem with that reasoning is that, as the social entities that we are, we use labels all the time. I think only a chosen few can forgo them. The collective mindset is already in full swing, UT.

Mark my words, if we do destroy ourselves sometime in the future, it will probably be do to the cognitive failure that is social psychology.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

The problem with that reasoning is that, as the social entities that we are, we use labels all the time. I think only a chosen few can forgo them. The collective mindset is already in full swing, UT.

Mark my words, if we do destroy ourselves sometime in the future, it will probably be do to the cognitive failure that is social psychology.

You have dabbled far more than me into these topics, UT. What do you propose to be done to eliminate labels? Is it even possible? We are too conditioned to function this way that I don't see a clear path as to what could be done.

[South Lorenya]

In the US; the Cons have turned liberal into a dirty word.

Only in the areas crazy enough to vote for dubya; nobody claims about it up here in NY.

[Shawilde]

To be fair, there is a purpose to these terms, and they do, in fact, make sense.

For instance, if I say that my economic views are essentially Liberal in nature most people would understand what this means. Likewise if i were to say that they were socialist or social democratic and so on. Where we run into problems is when people don't actually know what these terms mean. This is, in particular, a problem in the US where the American definition of "Liberal" is rather vague, at the best of times. In that the whole political establishment in the US is considerably to the right of most every other Western state, Liberalism in the US is used interchangeably with "Left", where as in most of the world Liberals and Leftists tend to find themselves on opposite sides of the aisle. This is what Obama was making reference to when he said that European leaders had been puzzled at the recent protests in the US claiming him to be a communist and what have you--correctly adding that in their countries he would most likely be considered a conservative of some sort of another. This is true of most of the Democratic Party, really, especially his cabinet.

[Hayteria]

Liberalism in the US is used interchangeably with "Left", where as in most of the world Liberals and Leftists tend to find themselves on opposite sides of the aisle.

Hmm? What exactly do you mean by that one? Here in Canada "Liberalism" and "Left" seem to be associated with each other too.

[Dolphin Girl]

Liberalism in the US is used interchangeably with "Left", where as in most of the world Liberals and Leftists tend to find themselves on opposite sides of the aisle.

Hmm? What exactly do you mean by that one? Here in Canada "Liberalism" and "Left" seem to be associated with each other too.

An economic liberal is usually a proponent of a free market in some way, shape, or form. The opposite of that would be a socialist who is in favour of a heavily-regulated or planned economy. Canada is like the US in that liberalism is being associated with the left because the opposition has aligned itself further right.

[Free Commonalities]

Overused and a bit shaky. I tend towards being liberal, but not on many issues. The individual issues and personal conscience matter. It is more important for a person to be able to make responsible decisions based on careful thought.

[Hayteria]

Liberalism in the US is used interchangeably with "Left", where as in most of the world Liberals and Leftists tend to find themselves on opposite sides of the aisle.

Hmm? What exactly do you mean by that one? Here in Canada "Liberalism" and "Left" seem to be associated with each other too.

An economic liberal is usually a proponent of a free market in some way, shape, or form. The opposite of that would be a socialist who is in favour of a heavily-regulated or planned economy. Canada is like the US in that liberalism is being associated with the left because the opposition has aligned itself further right.

Ah, as in how "liberal" in economics is used by some to refer to laissez-faire, whereas others use it to refer to regulation. Ironic how the same word in the context of the same subject is used to refer to things that are almost opposites. XD

[Insertdecentnamehere]

They should be.

In the US; the Cons have turned liberal into a dirty word.

But I don't mind it as it's a good way to identify the troggies......

And vice-versa. It works both ways.

[LOL ANARCHY NUBZ]

all labels are bad. Except "anarchist"