Creationism vs Evolution thread.

[Tlaceceyaya]

And if the being had always been there, why could not matter have?

Because God is mentioned in the Bible at the beginning of time, matter isn't, he created it.

God is mentioned in the bible, so he's true.
The bible is true because God is real.

Do you not see the flaw in that?

[Chaoclypse]

Vault 1, you still haven't given us reason why we should believe in the Bible.

Also: http://www.11points.com/books/11_things ... _do_anyway

Do you follow all of these? According to James 2:10, (For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it.), if you eat shellfish (Leviticus 11:10) it's as bad as murder.

[The Rich Port]

It's amazing how 90% of the poll is composed of the bunk options.

Oh well. At least the bunkers only get 1 vote, same as me.

[Chaoclypse]

You can't, actually.

Yes, you can. Been done.

"But," he said, "you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live."- Exodus 33:20
No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father’s side, he has made him known. - John 1:18
No one has ever seen God; if we love one another, God abides in us and his love is perfected in us. - John 4:12

Looks like all them artists were frauds.

[Aquahelper]

Vault 1, you still haven't given us reason why we should believe in the Bible.

Also: http://www.11points.com/books/11_things ... _do_anyway

Do you follow all of these? According to James 2:10, (For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it.), if you eat shellfish (Leviticus 11:10) it's as bad as murder.

the post misses the basic tenet of christianity that Jesus came to disband the old law, and put in a new law "not of the letter, for the letter kills" Your link is pointless.

As to why we should believe the bible. For at least the new testament, I like to quote C.S. Lewis "Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse." I like to think that hundreds of people would be able to see past any lie the deciples of Jesus made, simply because they existed in the time that Jesus would have walked the earth, that and the very notion of Jesus is basically death to whoever speaks if its not true simply because it means blasphemy against God.

my view on evolution are found on this page: viewtopic.php?f=20&t=175410&start=1825

[Tlaceceyaya]

Vault 1, you still haven't given us reason why we should believe in the Bible.

Also: http://www.11points.com/books/11_things ... _do_anyway

Do you follow all of these? According to James 2:10, (For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it.), if you eat shellfish (Leviticus 11:10) it's as bad as murder.

the post misses the basic tenet of christianity that Jesus came to disband the old law, and put in a new law "not of the letter, for the letter kills" Your link is pointless.

As to why we should believe the bible. For at least the new testament, I like to quote C.S. Lewis "Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse." I like to think that hundreds of people would be able to see past any lie the deciples of Jesus made, simply because they existed in the time that Jesus would have walked the earth, that and the very notion of Jesus is basically death to whoever speaks if its not true simply because it means blasphemy against God.

There is also a part where it says that Jesus came to uphold the old law.

[Ifreann]

You can't, actually.

Yes, you can. Been done.

You can, in 2 or 3 dimensions, draw the entity that, being omnipotent, could take on literally any appearance?

Neither IQ tests nor the SATs test for intelligence or stupidity.

Really? Then what do IQ tests test for?

Ability to do well in IQ tests.

The probability of a standard deck of cards(excluding jokers) appearing in any particular order is, if I remember my maths properly, 1 in 52!, which Google puts at 8.06581752 × 10⁶⁷. Does this mean that I could take 5 decks and, with those 260 cards, do something scientifically impossible? Wolfram Alpha puts it at 1 in 3.8301958608361692351174979856044918752795567523... × 10^516 that they would be in any particular order.

And this is a very fitting example.

As you can see, the probability of cards being in that particular order by accident is pretty much nil.

Actually the probability of that many cards cards being in that particular order for any reason are 1 in 3.8301958608361692351174979856044918752795567523... × 10⁵¹⁶.

But add an intelligent being - you - arranging them in that order, and it all falls into place.

That's how atoms got arranged into living organisms.

Haha. But you assume I was intelligently arranging the cards. Personally I'm a fan of a riffle shuffle, but you could just as easily throw all the cards on the ground and pick them up in the order that a beetle runs over them and the numbers would be the same. There's no reason that such unlikely things need intelligent input to occur.

[Aquahelper]

the post misses the basic tenet of christianity that Jesus came to disband the old law, and put in a new law "not of the letter, for the letter kills" Your link is pointless.

As to why we should believe the bible. For at least the new testament, I like to quote C.S. Lewis "Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse." I like to think that hundreds of people would be able to see past any lie the deciples of Jesus made, simply because they existed in the time that Jesus would have walked the earth, that and the very notion of Jesus is basically death to whoever speaks if its not true simply because it means blasphemy against God.

There is also a part where it says that Jesus came to uphold the old law.

no, again a mischaracterization of basic christian theology. Christian theology holds that jesus is come to fulfil the law in that the law requires the death of imperfect humanity and can only give true life by being a good person, good being perfect. Since people are not perfect, the law is not fulfilled until one who is able comes and fulfills in. In that sense, yes he upholds the law by fulfilling it and allowing a new one to take its place.

my views on evolution are: viewtopic.php?f=20&t=175410&start=1825 if you are interested.

[Chaoclypse]

Vault 1, you still haven't given us reason why we should believe in the Bible.

Also: http://www.11points.com/books/11_things ... _do_anyway

Do you follow all of these? According to James 2:10, (For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it.), if you eat shellfish (Leviticus 11:10) it's as bad as murder.

the post misses the basic tenet of christianity that Jesus came to disband the old law, and put in a new law "not of the letter, for the letter kills" Your link is pointless.

Jesus disbanded the old law? Oh really.

"It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid." (Luke 16:17 NAB)

"Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation, for no prophecy ever came through human will; but rather human beings moved by the holy Spirit spoke under the influence of God." (2 Peter 20-21 NAB)

“For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 5:18-19 RSV) (Said by Jesus)

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place." (Matthew 5:17 NAB) (Said by Jesus also!)

Huh. That seems just a bit contradictory with what you said.

As to why we should believe the bible. For at least the new testament, I like to quote C.S. Lewis "Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse." I like to think that hundreds of people would be able to see past any lie the deciples of Jesus made, simply because they existed in the time that Jesus would have walked the earth, that and the very notion of Jesus is basically death to whoever speaks if its not true simply because it means blasphemy against God.

There's a little thing called gullibility. Why do you think the Heaven's Gate cult members all committed suicide?

[Risottia]

The failure of the Aquinas was exactly his idea that there could be a rational theology (as underlined by Kant and Goedel).
Hence, no form of religion can be founded on rationality. Hence, it's irrational. Period.

But what if take the quotient of the integer number of synagogues and cathedrals, would that be rational?

Definitely.
Unless you're taking a/b where a is the number of cathedrals and b the number of synagogues... in SAUDI ARABIA!
If you do it, your head asplode.

[Risottia]

Because science is 35% lies, 35% communist propaganda, and 35% glorified math.

Corollary: at least 5% of science is lies, communist propaganda and glorified math AT THE SAME TIME.

[Aquahelper]

the post misses the basic tenet of christianity that Jesus came to disband the old law, and put in a new law "not of the letter, for the letter kills" Your link is pointless.

Jesus disbanded the old law? Oh really.

"It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid." (Luke 16:17 NAB)

"Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation, for no prophecy ever came through human will; but rather human beings moved by the holy Spirit spoke under the influence of God." (2 Peter 20-21 NAB)

“For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 5:18-19 RSV) (Said by Jesus)

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place." (Matthew 5:17 NAB) (Said by Jesus also!)

Huh. That seems just a bit contradictory with what you said.

As to why we should believe the bible. For at least the new testament, I like to quote C.S. Lewis "Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse." I like to think that hundreds of people would be able to see past any lie the deciples of Jesus made, simply because they existed in the time that Jesus would have walked the earth, that and the very notion of Jesus is basically death to whoever speaks if its not true simply because it means blasphemy against God.

There's a little thing called gullibility. Why do you think the Heaven's Gate cult members all committed suicide?

you're still mischaracterizing basic christian theology and the fact that at the point Jesus said all that, the law had not yet been fulfilled (i.e. he didn't die and resurrect yet). as for 2 Peter, prophesy and law are not the same. Whatever website or list you're taking these verses form is not adhering to basic christian theology and conventional christian understanding of scripture. You can do the same thing with any text and prooftext, it doesn't make it right.

there is a thing called gullibility, but you're basically saying that thousands of people would follow something that people pretended? Certainly not, when there are doubtless hundreds of people alive that have seen jesus at that time, and that saw him die. You would be classified as insane if you went around yelling "I saw a man rise from the dead." Gullibility yes, but certainly not to that extent, and certainly not when its against the religious establishment at that time.

[Ifreann]

Because science is 35% lies, 35% communist propaganda, and 35% glorified math.

Corollary: at least 5% of science is lies, communist propaganda and glorified math AT THE SAME TIME.

2 + 2 = Workers controlling the means of productions leads to a utopia.

[Chaoclypse]

Jesus disbanded the old law? Oh really.

"It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid." (Luke 16:17 NAB)

"Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation, for no prophecy ever came through human will; but rather human beings moved by the holy Spirit spoke under the influence of God." (2 Peter 20-21 NAB)

“For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 5:18-19 RSV) (Said by Jesus)

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place." (Matthew 5:17 NAB) (Said by Jesus also!)

Huh. That seems just a bit contradictory with what you said.



There's a little thing called gullibility. Why do you think the Heaven's Gate cult members all committed suicide?

you're still mischaracterizing basic christian theology and the fact that at the point Jesus said all that, the law had not yet been fulfilled (i.e. he didn't die and resurrect yet). as for 2 Peter, prophesy and law are not the same. Whatever website or list you're taking these verses form is not adhering to basic christian theology and conventional christian understanding of scripture. You can do the same thing with any text and prooftext, it doesn't make it right.

there is a thing called gullibility, but you're basically saying that thousands of people would follow something that people pretended? Certainly not, when there are doubtless hundreds of people alive that have seen jesus at that time, and that saw him die. You would be classified as insane if you went around yelling "I saw a man rise from the dead." Gullibility yes, but certainly not to that extent, and certainly not when its against the religious establishment at that time.

In other words, Jesus not only abolished the old testament, but also parts of the new testament (the parts where he said all of the bible should be upheld). What other parts did he abolish when he "died and resurrected", I wonder? Seems to me you're trying to make your beliefs fit the scripture, especially since you're just discarding parts of it at will. Don't you think God's word would take into account what would happen later, and make sure that the scripture isn't so obviously contradictory that the only way of making it not contradictory is to just discard it, saying it's the Lord's will?

Do you have evidence that "hundreds of people" saw Jesus rise from the grave?

[Vault 1]

Ability to do well in IQ tests.

So... why is it used to test intelligence, then?

Haha. But you assume I was intelligently arranging the cards. Personally I'm a fan of a riffle shuffle, but you could just as easily throw all the cards on the ground and pick them up in the order that a beetle runs over them and the numbers would be the same. There's no reason that such unlikely things need intelligent input to occur.

No, that would not produce a particular order. That would produce a random order.

Creating life from atoms is akin to stacking an 8-deck shoe such that the sequence of cards produces the exact sequence of the digits of Pi in triskadecimal.

[Aquahelper]

you're still mischaracterizing basic christian theology and the fact that at the point Jesus said all that, the law had not yet been fulfilled (i.e. he didn't die and resurrect yet). as for 2 Peter, prophesy and law are not the same. Whatever website or list you're taking these verses form is not adhering to basic christian theology and conventional christian understanding of scripture. You can do the same thing with any text and prooftext, it doesn't make it right.

there is a thing called gullibility, but you're basically saying that thousands of people would follow something that people pretended? Certainly not, when there are doubtless hundreds of people alive that have seen jesus at that time, and that saw him die. You would be classified as insane if you went around yelling "I saw a man rise from the dead." Gullibility yes, but certainly not to that extent, and certainly not when its against the religious establishment at that time.

In other words, Jesus not only abolished the old testament, but also parts of the new testament (the parts where he said all of the bible should be upheld). What other parts did he abolish when he "died and resurrected", I wonder? Seems to me you're trying to make your beliefs fit the scripture.

Do you have evidence that "hundreds of people" saw Jesus rise from the grave?

take luke for example, since you're so intent on not actually reading what it means and putting it out there in the context of historical-critical exegesis. The theme of luke is the universality of christianity and the law is what limits people form accepting Judaism because of its laws concerning the actions of jews (you can convert, its just not easy). The point Jesus makes in this verse (you must also consider the preceding) is that the law was finished with John the baptist and that Jesus represented the beginning of the kingdom in which the old law has passed. The law remains, but it is fulfilled in the Kingdom and the life of those in the kingdom, christians, is no longer bound by the letter of the law, but by the spirit.

I never said people saw him rise from the grave, i said that there would be hundreds able to dispute the disciples by being eyewitnesses of Jesus' life on earth if they lied.

[Vault 1]

Corollary: at least 5% of science is lies, communist propaganda and glorified math AT THE SAME TIME.

"Communism is Soviet power plus the electrification of the entire country"
V.Lenin, 1920

Can find out some things about Soviet power based on that one.

[Chaoclypse]

In other words, Jesus not only abolished the old testament, but also parts of the new testament (the parts where he said all of the bible should be upheld). What other parts did he abolish when he "died and resurrected", I wonder? Seems to me you're trying to make your beliefs fit the scripture.

Do you have evidence that "hundreds of people" saw Jesus rise from the grave?

take luke for example, since you're so intent on not actually reading what it means and putting it out there in the context of historical-critical exegesis. The theme of luke is the universality of christianity and the law is what limits people form accepting Judaism because of its laws concerning the actions of jews (you can convert, its just not easy). The point Jesus makes in this verse (you must also consider the preceding) is that the law was finished with John the baptist and that Jesus represented the beginning of the kingdom in which the old law has passed. The law remains, but it is fulfilled in the Kingdom and the life of those in the kingdom, christians, is no longer bound by the letter of the law, but by the spirit.

So the law was too hard for people to follow, so Jesus said they didn't need to follow all that? Sounds like a smart PR move.

"Hey guys, join Christianity! New-and-improved rules are easier AND more convenient!!"

I never said people saw him rise from the grave, i said that there would be hundreds able to dispute the disciples by being eyewitnesses of Jesus' life on earth if they lied.

There are hundreds of eyewitnesses of aliens, loch ness monsters and the like, too. And their accounts are far more recent, unlike the 2000 year old accounts in the Bible.

[The Alma Mater]

I never said people saw him rise from the grave, i said that there would be hundreds able to dispute the disciples by being eyewitnesses of Jesus' life on earth if they lied.

Were any of them still alive when the Bibleverses in question were written ?
And is there any reason to assume their words would make it into the writings if they were too inconvenient ?

[Aquahelper]

take luke for example, since you're so intent on not actually reading what it means and putting it out there in the context of historical-critical exegesis. The theme of luke is the universality of christianity and the law is what limits people form accepting Judaism because of its laws concerning the actions of jews (you can convert, its just not easy). The point Jesus makes in this verse (you must also consider the preceding) is that the law was finished with John the baptist and that Jesus represented the beginning of the kingdom in which the old law has passed. The law remains, but it is fulfilled in the Kingdom and the life of those in the kingdom, christians, is no longer bound by the letter of the law, but by the spirit.

So the law was too hard for people to follow, so Jesus said they didn't need to follow all that? Sounds like a PR move.

I never said people saw him rise from the grave, i said that there would be hundreds able to dispute the disciples by being eyewitnesses of Jesus' life on earth if they lied.

There are hundreds of eyewitnesses of aliens, loch ness monsters and the like, too. And their accounts are far more recent, unlike the 2000 year old accounts in the Bible.

if you want to put it that way, then yes it was a PR move, but it was a PR move that allows for those that believe in Christ to have freedom from the bondage of sin, within the framework of Christian theology, and I, as a Christian, don't mind that PR move and it doesn't detract at all from the message of Christianity.

There were eyewitnesses yes, but they dont go against the social order that surrounds you. When you get stoned for your beliefs (UFO people and loch ness observers certainly dont) you must very well be certain of what your believe. (and martyrs are recorded in the Bible, so people who could have seen both Jesus and the followers of him after his death were the ones that stoned).

I never said people saw him rise from the grave, i said that there would be hundreds able to dispute the disciples by being eyewitnesses of Jesus' life on earth if they lied.

Were any of them still alive when the Bible verses in question were written ?
And is there any reason to assume their words would make it into the writings if they were too inconvenient ?

yes. John was written ~AD 90 and there could have been people who saw jesus alive at that point. Also, though we today dont call it certain, oral records can actually be surprisingly accurate even after several generations.

The bible covers failures of people as well as successes, if you wanted to selectively add or subtract verses, i'd actually leave out many more. (failings of the disciples, failings in the old testament of people like david)

[Farnhamia]

take luke for example, since you're so intent on not actually reading what it means and putting it out there in the context of historical-critical exegesis. The theme of luke is the universality of christianity and the law is what limits people form accepting Judaism because of its laws concerning the actions of jews (you can convert, its just not easy). The point Jesus makes in this verse (you must also consider the preceding) is that the law was finished with John the baptist and that Jesus represented the beginning of the kingdom in which the old law has passed. The law remains, but it is fulfilled in the Kingdom and the life of those in the kingdom, christians, is no longer bound by the letter of the law, but by the spirit.

So the law was too hard for people to follow, so Jesus said they didn't need to follow all that? Sounds like a PR move.

I never said people saw him rise from the grave, i said that there would be hundreds able to dispute the disciples by being eyewitnesses of Jesus' life on earth if they lied.

There are hundreds of eyewitnesses of aliens, loch ness monsters and the like, too. And their accounts are far more recent, unlike the 2000 year old accounts in the Bible.

The real PR move came when Paul put together the mission to the gentiles. That's when the dietary laws and the requirement for circumcision went, because those two together were a deal breaker. The Early Church, without Saint Paul, would have assimilated back into mainstream Judaism in a couple of generations. By taking Jesus' message to non-Jews, Paul reached a much larger audience, one with money and power.

[Aquahelper]

So the law was too hard for people to follow, so Jesus said they didn't need to follow all that? Sounds like a PR move.



There are hundreds of eyewitnesses of aliens, loch ness monsters and the like, too. And their accounts are far more recent, unlike the 2000 year old accounts in the Bible.

The real PR move came when Paul put together the mission to the gentiles. That's when the dietary laws and the requirement for circumcision went, because those two together were a deal breaker. The Early Church, without Saint Paul, would have assimilated back into mainstream Judaism in a couple of generations. By taking Jesus' message to non-Jews, Paul reached a much larger audience, one with money and power.

I disagree about reassimiliation. they were basically divided after the Bar Kokhba revolt which divided jewish people who beleived in bar kokhba from jewish christians at that time.

what happened to the original purpose of this thread . . . .

[Chaoclypse]

So the law was too hard for people to follow, so Jesus said they didn't need to follow all that? Sounds like a PR move.



There are hundreds of eyewitnesses of aliens, loch ness monsters and the like, too. And their accounts are far more recent, unlike the 2000 year old accounts in the Bible.

The real PR move came when Paul put together the mission to the gentiles. That's when the dietary laws and the requirement for circumcision went, because those two together were a deal breaker. The Early Church, without Saint Paul, would have assimilated back into mainstream Judaism in a couple of generations. By taking Jesus' message to non-Jews, Paul reached a much larger audience, one with money and power.

Damn. They really cut corners for more believers, huh.

The real PR move came when Paul put together the mission to the gentiles. That's when the dietary laws and the requirement for circumcision went, because those two together were a deal breaker. The Early Church, without Saint Paul, would have assimilated back into mainstream Judaism in a couple of generations. By taking Jesus' message to non-Jews, Paul reached a much larger audience, one with money and power.

I disagree about reassimiliation. they were basically divided after the Bar Kokhba revolt which divided jewish people who beleived in bar kokhba from jewish christians at that time.

what happened to the original purpose of this thread . . . .

The premise of God has to be proved in order for Creationism to be consistent. I don't think we're straying TOO far.

[The Alma Mater]

what happened to the original purpose of this thread . . . .

As always, all creationists were able to do was attacking evolution, without giving any reason whatsoever why that would make their own idea correct.
Then a pretty good troll showed up and pretended to be a creationist. That was fun.

Now we turn elsewhere, since it seems unlikely a creationist who actually has something useful to tell will appear.

[Aquahelper]

Well i'm leaving for another 70 pages again (maybe?), i still see no great division between science and religion.