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2nd amendment

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Safed
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2nd amendment

Postby Safed » Tue Apr 17, 2012 9:32 am

Before you reply, I want to point out that this is not trolling/flamebait or w/e but an honest question.

Why do some citizens of the USA believe they have a "God-given right to bear arms" when the actual second amendment was not written in such a way as to condone the carrying of firearms by civilians.

The second amendment goes as follows:
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
(from http://www.usconstitution.net/)

The key bit here is the Well regulated Militia. This amendment was made because when it was written, in the 1790s, the USA did not want a standing army, although they lived in a hostile country whereby a standing armed force was necessary. This amendment was a way round the problem, a way to get a properly trained and armed militia to use in times of conflict or defence, in part due to the contribution made by militias, or minutemen in the war of independence.

I think a lot of the confusion comes down to people just quoting the second half of this amendment, nicely ignoring the militia part. Another ( admittedly forced) example of this is just quoting half a famous line from Shakespear, when Romeo says "Yonder window breaks," now, he is a vandal rather than someone who claims to be in love, although considering the romance lasted 3 days and was between a 17 and 13 year old. That is beside the point.

Anyway, back to the 2nd amendment, I'm genuinely interested as to what others, mainly Americans, think about this, I'm sure my post isn't original in its nature but I'm wondering, I'm also aware that the right to carry is far too a contentious issue for anything to ever actually be done about it.

tl;dr basically, the right to carry results from misreading the 2nd amendment of the US constitution, is this purposeful or do people just genuinely not take an interest in a feature that is supposed to be a major part of their history?

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Neo Arcad
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Postby Neo Arcad » Tue Apr 17, 2012 9:36 am

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Faaris Ahmad
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Postby Faaris Ahmad » Tue Apr 17, 2012 9:37 am

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Galloism
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Postby Galloism » Tue Apr 17, 2012 9:38 am

Venicilian: wow. Jesus hung around with everyone. boys, girls, rich, poor(mostly), sick, healthy, etc. in fact, i bet he even went up to gay people and tried to heal them so they would be straight.
The Parkus Empire: Being serious on NSG is like wearing a suit to a nude beach.
New Kereptica: Since power is changed energy over time, an increase in power would mean, in this case, an increase in energy. As energy is equivalent to mass and the density of the government is static, the volume of the government must increase.


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Ifreann
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Postby Ifreann » Tue Apr 17, 2012 9:39 am

Safed wrote:Before you reply, I want to point out that this is not trolling/flamebait or w/e but an honest question.

Why do some citizens of the USA believe they have a "God-given right to bear arms" when the actual second amendment was not written in such a way as to condone the carrying of firearms by civilians.

Because their God told them so, one assumes.

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Sorratsin
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Postby Sorratsin » Tue Apr 17, 2012 9:40 am

Safed wrote:The key bit here is the Well regulated Militia. This amendment was made because when it was written, in the 1790s, the USA did not want a standing army, although they lived in a hostile country whereby a standing armed force was necessary. This amendment was a way round the problem, a way to get a properly trained and armed militia to use in times of conflict or defence, in part due to the contribution made by militias, or minutemen in the war of independence.


You do not understand how the constitution works. It was not made to "do" anything, it is a set of restrictions on government power.

The only restricted government power that can be read out of the 2nd amendment is arbitrarily denying the citizenry of the right to have firearms.

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Jagalonia
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Postby Jagalonia » Tue Apr 17, 2012 9:41 am

I see somone was watching colbert last night. ;)
Tokyoni wrote:Hitler's mustache looks weird. Adam Smith was a drunken fatass. There, I've just pwned fascism and capitalism by such "logic".
Edlichbury wrote:OOC: If Knootoss can claim alcohol is a biological weapon, I can claim sentient Milk-People.
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lolz ensued
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fridge.setTempC(100);
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Raeyh
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Postby Raeyh » Tue Apr 17, 2012 9:41 am

Sorratsin wrote:
Safed wrote:The key bit here is the Well regulated Militia. This amendment was made because when it was written, in the 1790s, the USA did not want a standing army, although they lived in a hostile country whereby a standing armed force was necessary. This amendment was a way round the problem, a way to get a properly trained and armed militia to use in times of conflict or defence, in part due to the contribution made by militias, or minutemen in the war of independence.


You do not understand how the constitution works. It was not made to "do" anything, it is a set of restrictions on government power.

The only restricted government power that can be read out of the 2nd amendment is arbitrarily denying the citizenry of the right to have firearms.


Why would they point out a well regulated militia being needed if they were planning on just letting everyone have guns?

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Ifreann
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Postby Ifreann » Tue Apr 17, 2012 9:42 am

Sorratsin wrote:
Safed wrote:The key bit here is the Well regulated Militia. This amendment was made because when it was written, in the 1790s, the USA did not want a standing army, although they lived in a hostile country whereby a standing armed force was necessary. This amendment was a way round the problem, a way to get a properly trained and armed militia to use in times of conflict or defence, in part due to the contribution made by militias, or minutemen in the war of independence.


You do not understand how the constitution works. It was not made to "do" anything, it is a set of restrictions on government power.

The only restricted government power that can be read out of the 2nd amendment is arbitrarily denying the citizenry of the right to have firearms.

Restricting government power is doing something. You can tell because "restrict" is a verb :P

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Ifreann
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Postby Ifreann » Tue Apr 17, 2012 9:42 am

Raeyh wrote:
Sorratsin wrote:
You do not understand how the constitution works. It was not made to "do" anything, it is a set of restrictions on government power.

The only restricted government power that can be read out of the 2nd amendment is arbitrarily denying the citizenry of the right to have firearms.


Why would they point out a well regulated militia being needed if they were planning on just letting everyone have guns?

Because a well regulated militia being needed is why they were planning on just letting everyone have guns.
Last edited by Ifreann on Tue Apr 17, 2012 9:43 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Galloism
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Postby Galloism » Tue Apr 17, 2012 9:42 am

Raeyh wrote:
Sorratsin wrote:
You do not understand how the constitution works. It was not made to "do" anything, it is a set of restrictions on government power.

The only restricted government power that can be read out of the 2nd amendment is arbitrarily denying the citizenry of the right to have firearms.


Why would they point out a well regulated militia being needed if they were planning on just letting everyone have guns?

Why would they have written it in such a way that the prefatory clause did not limit the operative clause if they didn't mean it?
Venicilian: wow. Jesus hung around with everyone. boys, girls, rich, poor(mostly), sick, healthy, etc. in fact, i bet he even went up to gay people and tried to heal them so they would be straight.
The Parkus Empire: Being serious on NSG is like wearing a suit to a nude beach.
New Kereptica: Since power is changed energy over time, an increase in power would mean, in this case, an increase in energy. As energy is equivalent to mass and the density of the government is static, the volume of the government must increase.


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Jagalonia
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Postby Jagalonia » Tue Apr 17, 2012 9:42 am

Ifreann wrote:
Sorratsin wrote:
You do not understand how the constitution works. It was not made to "do" anything, it is a set of restrictions on government power.

The only restricted government power that can be read out of the 2nd amendment is arbitrarily denying the citizenry of the right to have firearms.

Restricting government power is doing something. You can tell because "restrict" is a verb :P

A thousand curses on you and your basic grammar skills!
Tokyoni wrote:Hitler's mustache looks weird. Adam Smith was a drunken fatass. There, I've just pwned fascism and capitalism by such "logic".
Edlichbury wrote:OOC: If Knootoss can claim alcohol is a biological weapon, I can claim sentient Milk-People.
Senestrum wrote:Russians took the maximum allowable missile performances from the ABM treaty as design goals.
lolz ensued
Ifreann wrote:
Computer Land wrote:I don't want someone hacking my fridge :meh:

fridge.setTempC(100);
sysout("I'm melting! I'm meeeeelting! Oh what a world, what world!");
I'm Amish...Problem?
Unsigable. >.>
I am a Magnificent Titan who likes to Devour Heroes
All tech.

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Raeyh
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Founded: Feb 24, 2012
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Postby Raeyh » Tue Apr 17, 2012 9:43 am

Galloism wrote:
Raeyh wrote:
Why would they point out a well regulated militia being needed if they were planning on just letting everyone have guns?

Why would they have written it in such a way that the prefatory clause did not limit the operative clause if they didn't mean it?


They could have just left it out.

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Ifreann
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Postby Ifreann » Tue Apr 17, 2012 9:44 am

Jagalonia wrote:
Ifreann wrote:Restricting government power is doing something. You can tell because "restrict" is a verb :P

A thousand curses on you and your basic grammar skills!

I'm on par with a primary school student. 8)

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Galloism
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Postby Galloism » Tue Apr 17, 2012 9:44 am

Raeyh wrote:
Galloism wrote:Why would they have written it in such a way that the prefatory clause did not limit the operative clause if they didn't mean it?


They could have just left it out.

Or they could have said "for use in the militia".

In any case, it's all sort of irrelevant. All males in the US are members of the militia.
Venicilian: wow. Jesus hung around with everyone. boys, girls, rich, poor(mostly), sick, healthy, etc. in fact, i bet he even went up to gay people and tried to heal them so they would be straight.
The Parkus Empire: Being serious on NSG is like wearing a suit to a nude beach.
New Kereptica: Since power is changed energy over time, an increase in power would mean, in this case, an increase in energy. As energy is equivalent to mass and the density of the government is static, the volume of the government must increase.


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Linux and the X
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Postby Linux and the X » Tue Apr 17, 2012 9:45 am

I think the first comma leads to confusion. The version ratified only has one comma:
A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

The reasoning may have been militias, but the operative portion does not include such a limit.
If you see I've made a mistake in my wording or a factual detail, telegram me and I'll fix it. I'll even give you credit for pointing it out, if you'd like.
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Raeyh
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Postby Raeyh » Tue Apr 17, 2012 9:46 am

Galloism wrote:
Raeyh wrote:
They could have just left it out.

Or they could have said "for use in the militia".

In any case, it's all sort of irrelevant. All males in the US are members of the militia.


That's a pretty poorly regulated militia if I don't even realize it exists.

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Galloism
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Postby Galloism » Tue Apr 17, 2012 9:47 am

Raeyh wrote:
Galloism wrote:Or they could have said "for use in the militia".

In any case, it's all sort of irrelevant. All males in the US are members of the militia.


That's a pretty poorly regulated militia if I don't even realize it exists.

Then you need to go back and read DC v Heller too.
Venicilian: wow. Jesus hung around with everyone. boys, girls, rich, poor(mostly), sick, healthy, etc. in fact, i bet he even went up to gay people and tried to heal them so they would be straight.
The Parkus Empire: Being serious on NSG is like wearing a suit to a nude beach.
New Kereptica: Since power is changed energy over time, an increase in power would mean, in this case, an increase in energy. As energy is equivalent to mass and the density of the government is static, the volume of the government must increase.


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Jagalonia
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Founded: Jun 22, 2010
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Postby Jagalonia » Tue Apr 17, 2012 9:47 am

Ifreann wrote:
Jagalonia wrote:A thousand curses on you and your basic grammar skills!

I'm on par with a primary school student. 8)

:O Watch out! It's an 8th grader!
Tokyoni wrote:Hitler's mustache looks weird. Adam Smith was a drunken fatass. There, I've just pwned fascism and capitalism by such "logic".
Edlichbury wrote:OOC: If Knootoss can claim alcohol is a biological weapon, I can claim sentient Milk-People.
Senestrum wrote:Russians took the maximum allowable missile performances from the ABM treaty as design goals.
lolz ensued
Ifreann wrote:
Computer Land wrote:I don't want someone hacking my fridge :meh:

fridge.setTempC(100);
sysout("I'm melting! I'm meeeeelting! Oh what a world, what world!");
I'm Amish...Problem?
Unsigable. >.>
I am a Magnificent Titan who likes to Devour Heroes
All tech.

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Safed
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Posts: 496
Founded: Jun 21, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby Safed » Tue Apr 17, 2012 9:47 am

Jagalonia wrote:I see somone was watching colbert last night. ;)


I have no idea what colbert is...

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Raeyh
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Founded: Feb 24, 2012
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Postby Raeyh » Tue Apr 17, 2012 9:49 am

Galloism wrote:
Raeyh wrote:
That's a pretty poorly regulated militia if I don't even realize it exists.

Then you need to go back and read DC v Heller too.


Supreme Court justices can make mistakes, too.

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Jagalonia
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Founded: Jun 22, 2010
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Postby Jagalonia » Tue Apr 17, 2012 9:50 am

Safed wrote:
Jagalonia wrote:I see somone was watching colbert last night. ;)


I have no idea what colbert is...

....The colbert report....?

Are you even human...?
Tokyoni wrote:Hitler's mustache looks weird. Adam Smith was a drunken fatass. There, I've just pwned fascism and capitalism by such "logic".
Edlichbury wrote:OOC: If Knootoss can claim alcohol is a biological weapon, I can claim sentient Milk-People.
Senestrum wrote:Russians took the maximum allowable missile performances from the ABM treaty as design goals.
lolz ensued
Ifreann wrote:
Computer Land wrote:I don't want someone hacking my fridge :meh:

fridge.setTempC(100);
sysout("I'm melting! I'm meeeeelting! Oh what a world, what world!");
I'm Amish...Problem?
Unsigable. >.>
I am a Magnificent Titan who likes to Devour Heroes
All tech.

User avatar
Galloism
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 72165
Founded: Aug 20, 2005
Father Knows Best State

Postby Galloism » Tue Apr 17, 2012 9:50 am

Raeyh wrote:
Galloism wrote:Then you need to go back and read DC v Heller too.


Supreme Court justices can make mistakes, too.

Nevertheless, the law of the land is that all male citizens are members of the militia.
Venicilian: wow. Jesus hung around with everyone. boys, girls, rich, poor(mostly), sick, healthy, etc. in fact, i bet he even went up to gay people and tried to heal them so they would be straight.
The Parkus Empire: Being serious on NSG is like wearing a suit to a nude beach.
New Kereptica: Since power is changed energy over time, an increase in power would mean, in this case, an increase in energy. As energy is equivalent to mass and the density of the government is static, the volume of the government must increase.


User avatar
Galloism
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 72165
Founded: Aug 20, 2005
Father Knows Best State

Postby Galloism » Tue Apr 17, 2012 9:50 am

Jagalonia wrote:
Safed wrote:
I have no idea what colbert is...

....The colbert report....?

Are you even human...?

To be fair, I've never seen it either.
Venicilian: wow. Jesus hung around with everyone. boys, girls, rich, poor(mostly), sick, healthy, etc. in fact, i bet he even went up to gay people and tried to heal them so they would be straight.
The Parkus Empire: Being serious on NSG is like wearing a suit to a nude beach.
New Kereptica: Since power is changed energy over time, an increase in power would mean, in this case, an increase in energy. As energy is equivalent to mass and the density of the government is static, the volume of the government must increase.


User avatar
Neo Arcad
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 11242
Founded: Jan 29, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Neo Arcad » Tue Apr 17, 2012 9:50 am

Raeyh wrote:
Galloism wrote:Then you need to go back and read DC v Heller too.


Supreme Court justices can make mistakes, too.


Right, but see, when they make "mistakes", the "mistakes" are codified as laws. Unfair? Possibly. Best system yet found? Definitely.
Ostroeuropa wrote:Two shirtless men on a pushback with handlebar moustaches and a kettle conquered India, at 17:04 in the afternoon on a Tuesday. They rolled the bike up the hill and demanded that the natives set about acquiring bureaucratic records.

Des-Bal wrote:Modern politics is a series of assholes and liars trying to be more angry than each other until someone lets a racist epithet slip and they all scatter like roaches.

NSLV wrote:Introducing the new political text from acclaimed author/yak, NEO ARCAD, an exploration of nuclear power in the Middle East and Asia, "Nuclear Penis: He Won't Call You Again".

This is the best region ever. You know you want it.

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