Israel vs. Palestine

[Ruridova]

And isn't the Israeli Muslim birthrate higher than the Israeli Jewsih birthrate? If that's true and it stays true, Israel will either have to become secular or wind up in a position similar to South Africa under apartheid, although that's not exactly likely.

If current birthrate trends continue, in 20 years, Israel (1948 Israel, not 1967 "Israel") will be nothing but Bedouin and Ultra-orthodox Jews. Now THAT will be fun to watch.

So, Apartheid South Africa?

[Forster Keys]

Sadly. We need Palestine under the control of a mild faction and Israel under someone like Yitzakh Rabin(he was the one who was actually willling to negotiate before a hyper-Zionist shot him, right?). And that's gonna be hard to pull off.

Palestine IS under the control of a mild faction. For the last 3 years, Israel has been training PA military units to kill and arrest militants better. Abu Mazen is more concerned with getting as many people to sign up for his Wataniya mobile company, and Fayyad is concerned with getting people to take out loans from his bank to buy cars and houses. Hell, even the Palestinian equivalent of Joe Sixpack (Ahmed Shisha?) is tired of violence. Nobody wants their (just bought, with a fresh mortgage) house to get bulldozed. There is VERY LITTLE support for militancy in the territories now. Unfortunately, Israel views this as weakness and an excuse to build more settlements.

Doesn't seem like that with Gaza. Also I was under the impression that their economy and employment rates were horrifically low.

[Forster Keys]

Actually Muslim opinion does matter, it is a country belonging to the Palestinians who are MUSLIM

What about the 20% or so of Palestinians who are Christian. Do they not have a right to their land?

About half that I thought.

[Vitaphone Racing]

If current birthrate trends continue, in 20 years, Israel (1948 Israel, not 1967 "Israel") will be nothing but Bedouin and Ultra-orthodox Jews. Now THAT will be fun to watch.

So, Apartheid South Africa?

It's why Palestinians want a single state and Israelis lean towards a two state solution; in a few decades time, Palestine WILL overrun Israel and considering the seething hate that the vast majority of Palestinians have for Jews, it isn't going to be pretty.

[DogDoo 7]

Sadly. We need Palestine under the control of a mild faction and Israel under someone like Yitzakh Rabin(he was the one who was actually willling to negotiate before a hyper-Zionist shot him, right?). And that's gonna be hard to pull off.

I think so on all counts. Fatah's mellowed out to the point where it can negotiate, as has Avoda as far as I know. But the mood in both nations doesn't work entirely in the favour of those parties.

The thing is, Palestine needs BOTH Fatah and Hamas, or else they suffer under unbelievable corruption (see the last 3 years in both West Bank and Gaza Strip). Of course, there's Bargouti and his Third Way, but there's also the whole "he's in prison for life" thing.

[Forster Keys]

I think so on all counts. Fatah's mellowed out to the point where it can negotiate, as has Avoda as far as I know. But the mood in both nations doesn't work entirely in the favour of those parties.

The thing is, Palestine needs BOTH Fatah and Hamas, or else they suffer under unbelievable corruption (see the last 3 years in both West Bank and Gaza Strip). Of course, there's Bargouti and his Third Way, but there's also the whole "he's in prison for life" thing.

This situation is buggered.

[Ruridova]

So, Apartheid South Africa?

It's why Palestinians want a single state and Israelis lean towards a two state solution; in a few decades time, Palestine WILL overrun Israel and considering the seething hate that the vast majority of Palestinians have for Jews, it isn't going to be pretty.

Israelis lean towards a two state solution?! I haven't seen much support for the two-state in Israel or Palestine, only from people outside the conflict(Excluding some Fatah officials and Yitzakh Rabin).

I think so on all counts. Fatah's mellowed out to the point where it can negotiate, as has Avoda as far as I know. But the mood in both nations doesn't work entirely in the favour of those parties.

The thing is, Palestine needs BOTH Fatah and Hamas, or else they suffer under unbelievable corruption (see the last 3 years in both West Bank and Gaza Strip). Of course, there's Bargouti and his Third Way, but there's also the whole "he's in prison for life" thing.

Hmmm. So, we need another Rabin Israel and Fatah/Avoda in Palestine, somehow finding a way to get the hyper-Zionists who assassinated Rabin I and Hamas to shut up and go along? So we know how to get a two-state solution, but how do we pull this off?

[Forster Keys]

It's why Palestinians want a single state and Israelis lean towards a two state solution; in a few decades time, Palestine WILL overrun Israel and considering the seething hate that the vast majority of Palestinians have for Jews, it isn't going to be pretty.

Israelis lean towards a two state solution?! I haven't seen much support for the two-state in Israel or Palestine, only from people outside the conflict(Excluding some Fatah officials and Yitzakh Rabin).

The thing is, Palestine needs BOTH Fatah and Hamas, or else they suffer under unbelievable corruption (see the last 3 years in both West Bank and Gaza Strip). Of course, there's Bargouti and his Third Way, but there's also the whole "he's in prison for life" thing.

Hmmm. So, we need another Rabin Israel and Fatah/Avoda in Palestine, somehow finding a way to get the hyper-Zionists who assassinated Rabin I and Hamas to shut up and go along? So we know how to get a two-state solution, but how do we pull this off?

Avoda is the Israeli Labour Party which Rabin belonged to, but essentially yes.

[Vitaphone Racing]

It's why Palestinians want a single state and Israelis lean towards a two state solution; in a few decades time, Palestine WILL overrun Israel and considering the seething hate that the vast majority of Palestinians have for Jews, it isn't going to be pretty.

Israelis lean towards a two state solution?! I haven't seen much support for the two-state in Israel or Palestine, only from people outside the conflict(Excluding some Fatah officials and Yitzakh Rabin).

When Israel is pressured to take a stance on peace, they instantly suggest a two state solution where they have control of Palestine's exterior borders. Obviously this will never happen.

The thing is, Palestine needs BOTH Fatah and Hamas, or else they suffer under unbelievable corruption (see the last 3 years in both West Bank and Gaza Strip). Of course, there's Bargouti and his Third Way, but there's also the whole "he's in prison for life" thing.

Hmmm. So, we need another Rabin Israel and Fatah/Avoda in Palestine, somehow finding a way to get the hyper-Zionists who assassinated Rabin I and Hamas to shut up and go along? So we know how to get a two-state solution, but how do we pull this off?

By getting a rifle and lining all the extremists from both sides up along a wall. I know it's not what you wanted to hear, but there will be no solution while these two sides hate each other for no reason at all.

[Ruridova]

Avoda is the Israeli Labour Party which Rabin belonged to, but essentially yes.

So, edit: we need Avoda in Israel and Fatah in Palestine. Then we have a chance of getting the two-state solution and ending this multi-decade shitstorm?

[DogDoo 7]

What about the 20% or so of Palestinians who are Christian. Do they not have a right to their land?

About half that I thought.

It's about 10% currently living there, but Christians are statistically more likely to be in the Palestinian Diaspora*.

*EDIT: Diaspora includes Palestinians with Israeli citizenship.

[The UK in Exile]

Israelis lean towards a two state solution?! I haven't seen much support for the two-state in Israel or Palestine, only from people outside the conflict(Excluding some Fatah officials and Yitzakh Rabin).

When Israel is pressured to take a stance on peace, they instantly suggest a two state solution where they have control of Palestine's exterior borders. Obviously this will never happen.

Hmmm. So, we need another Rabin Israel and Fatah/Avoda in Palestine, somehow finding a way to get the hyper-Zionists who assassinated Rabin I and Hamas to shut up and go along? So we know how to get a two-state solution, but how do we pull this off?

By getting a rifle and lining all the extremists from both sides up along a wall. I know it's not what you wanted to hear, but there will be no solution while these two sides hate each other for no reason at all.

lining people up and putting them against a wall is pretty much thedefinition of extremist.

[Forster Keys]

Avoda is the Israeli Labour Party which Rabin belonged to, but essentially yes.

So, edit: we need Avoda in Israel and Fatah in Palestine. Then we have a chance of getting the two-state solution and ending this multi-decade shitstorm?

Essentially. It was moving towards that I thought before the most recent shitstorm.

[Forster Keys]

About half that I thought.

It's about 10% currently living there, but Christians are statistically more likely to be in the Palestinian Diaspora.

Really? So a sort of Lebanon situation. Interesting.

[Ruridova]

By getting a rifle and lining all the extremists from both sides up along a wall. I know it's not what you wanted to hear, but there will be no solution while these two sides hate each other for no reason at all.

That would only create more hate.

So, edit: we need Avoda in Israel and Fatah in Palestine. Then we have a chance of getting the two-state solution and ending this multi-decade shitstorm?

Essentially. It was moving towards that I thought before the most recent shitstorm.

Then we need it to keep headig that way.

[Vitaphone Racing]

When Israel is pressured to take a stance on peace, they instantly suggest a two state solution where they have control of Palestine's exterior borders. Obviously this will never happen.

By getting a rifle and lining all the extremists from both sides up along a wall. I know it's not what you wanted to hear, but there will be no solution while these two sides hate each other for no reason at all.

lining people up and putting them against a wall is pretty much thedefinition of extremist.

[Vitaphone Racing]

By getting a rifle and lining all the extremists from both sides up along a wall. I know it's not what you wanted to hear, but there will be no solution while these two sides hate each other for no reason at all.

That would only create more hate.

So what can you do? You can't preach tolerance to children and expect them to follow when all they have been taught is hate. What you need to understand is that many Israelis and many Palestinians don't want peace with each other.

[DogDoo 7]

Israelis lean towards a two state solution?! I haven't seen much support for the two-state in Israel or Palestine, only from people outside the conflict(Excluding some Fatah officials and Yitzakh Rabin).
Hmmm. So, we need another Rabin Israel and Fatah/Avoda in Palestine, somehow finding a way to get the hyper-Zionists who assassinated Rabin I and Hamas to shut up and go along? So we know how to get a two-state solution, but how do we pull this off?

Avoda is the Israeli Labour Party which Rabin belonged to, but essentially yes.

Only the Israeli right-wing can make progress, since if the right-wing disagrees with the direction of government, they resort to violence. Menachem Begin in 1979, Rabin only got Peace with Jordan in 1994 because Netanyahu went along because Israel got to keep almost all the water, and Ariel Sharon(!!!) getting Israel out of Gaza (well, ok, they went back in later)

[Angleter]

Avoda is the Israeli Labour Party which Rabin belonged to, but essentially yes.

So, edit: we need Avoda in Israel and Fatah in Palestine. Then we have a chance of getting the two-state solution and ending this multi-decade shitstorm?

Ehud Olmert's Kadima government made an offer, in many ways better than that offered by Barak, in 2008.

[DogDoo 7]

So, edit: we need Avoda in Israel and Fatah in Palestine. Then we have a chance of getting the two-state solution and ending this multi-decade shitstorm?

Ehud Olmert's Kadima government made an offer, in many ways better than that offered by Barak, in 2008.

Any offer that doesn't cede most of East Jerusalem is pointless. (old city can be some joint national park thingy with religious custodianship of holy sites)

[Ruridova]

Ehud Olmert's Kadima government made an offer, in many ways better than that offered by Barak, in 2008.

Any offer that doesn't cede most of East Jerusalem is pointless. (old city can be some joint national park thingy with religious custodianship of holy sites)

Wasn't that the origial UN plan? Israeli capital at Tel Aviv, Palestinian capital at Ramallah, Jerusalem is in neither nation?

[FPCCOS]

Actually Muslim opinion does matter, it is a country belonging to the Palestinians who are MUSLIM

What about the 20% or so of Palestinians who are Christian. Do they not have a right to their land?

Of course Palestinian Christians have a right to their land, I am sorry if you thought I was suggesting otherwise and so do indigenous Jews who were in Palestine before the influx of Zionists.

[Evraim]

There really isn't genocide occuring in Israel either.

FPCCOS, I do intend to respond to your rather polished and lovely post as soon as I am able. Also, may I address you by something slightly less robotic? If not, I won't push the issue, and I had no intention of insulting you by asking...

Right, so now read my post again, and then stop accusing me of saying things that I'm not. thanks.

I didn't accuse you of anything. I was merely adding an additional claim. None of the above countries are committing genocide.

[Evraim]

OK, so its legal for the UN to take land belonging to one people and give it it those who have stolen other pieces of land belonging to the same people. Really? But somehow, in this really ludicrous world, a person who fights to defend their land, people and religion against oppressors is deemed a terrorist and their attempt to get their land back is somehow illegal?

All of the land prior the the United Nations partition was legally purchased, not stolen. Likewise, Jews and Arabs were both involved in the revolution against Ottoman governance. Also, I define a terrorist as an individual who attempts to murder non-combatants. The militant arm of Hezbollah, Hamas, the PLO, the Irgun, and the Lehi would all have been classified a terrorist organization at some point in their history by such a definition.

As for an earlier poster who said that Palestine was never under a state... where have you learnt history? Teletubbies?[

Palestine has been under a governing state for at least the past 1350 years. It was the Caliph Umar Ibn Khattab (the 3rd rightly guided caliph) who conquered Jerusalem and granted protection to its non-Muslim population, pledging to protect the Church of St Mary in Jerusalem and the Jews were allowed back into Jerusalem for the first time in a long time. So please don't portray the Muslims as evil. Muslims were the ones that allowed the Jews back into Jerusalem. After the Caliphs, it was under Ottoman rule, until the Arab nationalist revolt, after which it became a British mandate. After which what has to be the saddest chapter in its long history, being subjugated by the Israelis. Palestine was under a state. PLEASE use your god-given brain.

Palestine has indeed been a constituent part of larger political entities, but it has never possessed its own state. Also, as a number of sources have demonstrated, Jews were not always so well treated. Pogroms and massacres did occur, and with increasing frequency as Jews from Europe immigrated to the Levant. That is not an acceptable alternative to Zionism.

Some of the previous posters have insinuated that Palestine under the control of the Palestinians will result in persecution and discrimination of the Jews, however if Islamic law is applied and not just a secular state, it will lead to a golden age of peace between followers of the three Abrahamic religions. In Islam, Jews and Christians are referred to as the People of the Book and enjoy certain rights and privileges as do all non-Muslims in an Islamic state.

Perhaps Israelis would prefer not to live under theocratic laws, especially so considering a large number of them are Atheists? Furthermore, Islamic Law has not always proven so reliable in the past. Where was the law in Cordoba? Where was the law in Meshed? Where was the law in Granada? What of the Damascus Affair?

According to Mark R. Cohen, during the rise of Islam, the first encounters between Muslims and Jews resulted in persecution when Muhammad expelled or killed the Jewish tribes of Medina. He adds that this encounter was an exception rather than a rule.[7]

Traditionally Jews living in Muslim lands, known as dhimmis, were allowed to practice their religion and to administer their internal affairs but subject to certain conditions.[8] They had to pay the jizya (a per capita tax imposed on free adult non-Muslim males) to Muslims.[9] Dhimmis had an inferior status under Islamic rule. They had several social and legal disabilities such as prohibitions against bearing arms or giving testimony in courts in cases involving Muslims.[10] Contrary to popular belief, the Quran did not allow Muslims to force Jews to wear distinctive clothing. Obadyah the Proselyte reported in 1100 A.D, that the Caliph had created this rule himself:

The Caliph of Baghdad, al-Muqtadi [1075-1094], had given power to his vizier, Abu Shuja, [who] imposed that each male Jew should wear a yellow badge on his headgear. This was one distinctive sign on the head and the other was on the neck- a piece of lead of the weight of a silver dinar hanging round the neck of every Jew and inscribed with the word dhimmi to signify that the Jew had to pay poll-tax. Jews also had to wear girdles round their wastes. Abu Shuja further imposed two signs on Jewish women. They had to wear a black and a red shoe, and each woman had to have a small brass bell on her neck or shoe, which would tinkle and thus announce the separation of Jewish from Gentile [Muslim] women. He assigned cruel Muslim men to spy upon Jewish women, in order to oppress them with all kinds of curses, humiliation, and spite. The Gentile population used to mock all the Jews, and the mob and their children used to beat up the Jews in all the streets of Baghdad. When a Jew died, who had not paid up the poll-tax [jizya] to the full and was in debt for a small or large amount, the Gentiles did not permit burial until the poll-tax was paid. If the deceased left nothing of value, the Gentiles demanded that other Jews should, with their own money, meet the debt owed by the deceased in poll-tax; otherwise they [threatened] they would burn the body. (Scheiber, A. "The Origins of Obadyah, the Norman Proselyte" Journal of Jewish Studies (Oxford), Vol. 5, 1954, p. 37.)

In Moorish Spain, ibn Hazm and Abu Ishaq focused their anti-Jewish writings on the latter allegation. This was also the chief motivation behind the 1066 Granada massacre, when "[m]ore than 1,500 Jewish families, numbering 4,000 persons, fell in one day",[11] and in Fez in 1033, when 6,000 Jews were killed.[12] There were further massacres in Fez in 1276 and 1465.[13]

The Damascus affair occurred in 1840, when a French monk and his servant disappeared in Damascus. Immediately following, a charge of ritual murder was brought against a large number of Jews in the city including children who were tortured. The consuls of England, France and Germany as well as Ottoman authorities, Christians, Muslims and Jews all played a great role in this affair.[14] Following the Damascus affair, Pogroms spread through the Middle East and North Africa. Pogroms occurred in: Aleppo (1850, 1875), Damascus (1840, 1848, 1890), Beirut (1862, 1874), Dayr al-Qamar (1847), Jerusalem (1847), Cairo (1844, 1890, 1901–02), Mansura (1877), Alexandria (1870, 1882, 1901–07), Port Said (1903, 1908), Damanhur (1871, 1873, 1877, 1891), Istanbul (1870, 1874), Buyukdere (1864), Kuzguncuk (1866), Eyub (1868), Edirne (1872), Izmir (1872, 1874).[15] There was a massacre of Jews in Baghdad in 1828.[12] There was another massacre in Barfurush in 1867.[12]

In 1839, in the eastern Persian city of Meshed, a mob burst into the Jewish Quarter, burned the synagogue, and destroyed the Torah scrolls. This is known as the Allahdad incident. It was only by forcible conversion that a massacre was averted.[16]

In 1941, following Rashid Ali's pro-Axis coup, riots known as the Farhud broke out in Baghdad in which approximately 180 Jews were killed and about 240 were wounded, 586 Jewish-owned businesses were looted and 99 Jewish houses were destroyed.[17]


Border police discovered on March 2, 1974 the bodies of (clockwise from top left: Fara Zeibak, Mazal Zeibak, Eva Saad and Lulu Zeibak, in a cave in the Zabdani Mountains.During the Holocaust, the Middle East was in turmoil. Britain prohibited Jewish immigration to the British Mandate of Palestine. In Cairo the Jewish Lehi (also known as the Stern Gang) assassinated Lord Moyne in 1944 fighting as part of its campaign against British closure of Palestine to Jewish immigration, complicating British-Arab-Jewish relations. While the Allies and the Axis were fighting for the oil-rich region, the Mufti of Jerusalem Amin al-Husayni staged a pro-Nazi coup in Iraq and organized the Farhud pogrom which marked the turning point for about 150,000 Iraqi Jews who, following this event and the hostilities generated by the war with Israel in 1948, were targeted for violence, persecution, boycotts, confiscations, and near complete expulsion in 1951. The coup failed and the mufti fled to Berlin, where he actively supported Hitler. In Egypt, with a Jewish population of about 75,000, young Anwar Sadat was imprisoned for conspiring with the Nazis and promised them that "no British soldier would leave Egypt alive" (see Military history of Egypt during World War II) leaving the Jews of that region defenseless. In the French Vichy territories of Algeria and Syria plans had been drawn up for the liquidation of their Jewish populations were the Axis powers to triumph.

The tensions of the Arab-Israeli conflict were also a factor in the rise of animosity to Jews all over the Middle East, as hundreds of thousands of Jews fled as refugees, the main waves being soon after the 1948 and 1956 wars. In reaction to the Suez Crisis of 1956, the Egyptian government expelled almost 25,000 Egyptian Jews and confiscated their property, and sent approximately 1,000 more Jews to prisons and detention camps. The population of Jewish communities of Muslim Middle East and North Africa was reduced from about 900,000 in 1948 to less than 8,000 today.

On March 2, 1974, the bodies of four Syrian Jewish girls were discovered by border police in a cave in the Zabdani Mountains northwest of Damascus. Fara Zeibak 24, her sisters Lulu Zeibak 23, Mazal Zeibak 22 and their cousin Eva Saad 18, had contracted with a band of smugglers to flee Syrian to Lebanon and eventually to Israel. The girl’s bodies were found raped, murdered and mutilated. The police also found the remains of two Jewish boys, Natan Shaya 18 and Kassem Abadi 20, victims of an earlier massacre.[18] Syrian authorities deposited the bodies of all six in sacks before the homes of their parents in the Jewish ghetto in Damascus.[19]

Note to all posters. This is an intellectual debate, please present arguments that make sense. Do not make irrelevant and misleading comparisons (e.g Syria and Iran)

Noted.

Do not insult members of another religion and do not disregard the points of others without proper research and investigation. Because it seems that many people on this forum topic do not want to truly understand the valid points made by others and are only trying to present their viewpoint as the correct viewpoint. Many on this forum also disregard cited evidence and this is not right if we are to reach the truth about Israel Vs Palestine.

I concur - to an extent.

What about the 20% or so of Palestinians who are Christian. Do they not have a right to their land?

Of course Palestinian Christians have a right to their land, I am sorry if you thought I was suggesting otherwise and so do indigenous Jews who were in Palestine before the influx of Zionists.

Aren't the Jews living in the region now indigenous? After all, most of them were probably born and raised in Israel.

[Hamas]

Aren't the Jews living in the region now indigenous? After all, most of them were probably born and raised in Israel.

Very funny.