Israel vs. Palestine

[Forster Keys]

I will get it one day!!

Israel was created by th UK after WW1 as they were the ones under control of palestine after the ottoman empire was destroyed...

All the problems started from then on...

The land that would later become known as Israel fell under British administration as a mandate after WW1. As Jafas said, it was largely the work of the UN, and to a much greater extent the rapidly growing Jewish community within the mandate, that lead to Israel's declaration of independence in 1947.

[The UK in Exile]

Because I don't think the religion of Islam played a role in the conflict, especially after studying this topic in depth. Oh and also you haven't make a very convincing case.

Whether or not Palestinians want peace it has nothing to do with Islam and you still havent given me any reason to believe otherwise.

I asked you what Hamas' religious agenda is, you haven't told me, so unless you do I have to assume bs.

Neither have you. Especially when you're using personal anecdotes to back yourself up, but whatever you say.

I never said Islam itself has to do with the conflict. But the toxic mix of religion and politics does. Why can't you accept that?

Really? You're asking me what Hamas' agenda is? It's a Christfucking Islamist one. As if that wasn't obvious already.

Anyway, here's a few quotes from Hamas' charter which are just so choice.

Israel will rise and will remain erect until Islam eliminates it as it had eliminated its predecessors.

The Islamic World is burning. It is incumbent upon each one of us to pour some water, little as it may be, with a view of extinguishing as much of the fire as he can, without awaiting action by the others.

The Islamic Resistance Movement draws its guidelines from Islam; derives from it its thinking, interpretations and views about existence, life and humanity; refers back to it for its conduct; and is inspired by it in whatever step it takes.

The Movement welcomes all Muslims who share its beliefs and thinking, commit themselves to its course of action, keep its secrets and aspire to join its ranks in order to carry out their duty.

Allah will reward them.

I could go on and on, but you get the idea...or not. Clearly, Hamas' agenda isn't at all influenced by religion.

israeli tanks crashing through peoples home are probably a bigger influence tbh.

the underlined paragragh pretty much outright states that the beliefs and goals of hamas and the beliefs and goals of muslims are two separate things.

[DogDoo 7]

The current situation is so depressing because the Status Quo (settlements and occupation) is basically Israel's BEST choice, in that they can use the resources of the West Bank (land, water, Dead Sea) AND they don't have to accept the indigenous residents of the land as members of the country. It may not be the best long-term choice, but when your country is barely 64 years old, 5 years in the future seems like forever. Also, not helping matters is that the PA seems to have really cracked down on militancy in the West Bank (possibly because Fayyad and Abu Mazen are getting kickbacks from the Israelis?), so the Israelis don't feel that they need to do anything, since inside '48 you can't even tell there's an occupation at all. I don't see anything changing until the Israelis are willing to make real economic/religious/territorial sacrifices. Maybe a few carefully placed bombs (for maximum publicity and minimal casualties, such as outside Jerusalem City Hall in the middle of the night) could shake things up.

[FPCCOS]

The current situation is so depressing because the Status Quo (settlements and occupation) is basically Israel's BEST choice, in that they can use the resources of the West Bank (land, water, Dead Sea) AND they don't have to accept the indigenous residents of the land as members of the country. It may not be the best long-term choice, but when your country is barely 64 years old, 5 years in the future seems like forever. Also, not helping matters is that the PA seems to have really cracked down on militancy in the West Bank (possibly because Fayyad and Abu Mazen are getting kickbacks from the Israelis?), so the Israelis don't feel that they need to do anything, since inside '48 you can't even tell there's an occupation at all. I don't see anything changing until the Israelis are willing to make real economic/religious/territorial sacrifices. Maybe a few carefully placed bombs (for maximum publicity and minimal casualties, such as outside Jerusalem City Hall in the middle of the night) could shake things up.

The status quo is benefiting Israel. However, people are overlooking the fact that it shouldn't exist, just as Nazi Germany shouldn't have existed in its time, I mean the Nazi regime and not Germany itself.

[Forster Keys]

The current situation is so depressing because the Status Quo (settlements and occupation) is basically Israel's BEST choice, in that they can use the resources of the West Bank (land, water, Dead Sea) AND they don't have to accept the indigenous residents of the land as members of the country. It may not be the best long-term choice, but when your country is barely 64 years old, 5 years in the future seems like forever. Also, not helping matters is that the PA seems to have really cracked down on militancy in the West Bank (possibly because Fayyad and Abu Mazen are getting kickbacks from the Israelis?), so the Israelis don't feel that they need to do anything, since inside '48 you can't even tell there's an occupation at all. I don't see anything changing until the Israelis are willing to make real economic/religious/territorial sacrifices. Maybe a few carefully placed bombs (for maximum publicity and minimal casualties, such as outside Jerusalem City Hall in the middle of the night) could shake things up.

The situation does not need more terrorism. It'll solidify and intensify the bullheaded attitude on both sides. Plus it's reprehensible.

[Forster Keys]

The current situation is so depressing because the Status Quo (settlements and occupation) is basically Israel's BEST choice, in that they can use the resources of the West Bank (land, water, Dead Sea) AND they don't have to accept the indigenous residents of the land as members of the country. It may not be the best long-term choice, but when your country is barely 64 years old, 5 years in the future seems like forever. Also, not helping matters is that the PA seems to have really cracked down on militancy in the West Bank (possibly because Fayyad and Abu Mazen are getting kickbacks from the Israelis?), so the Israelis don't feel that they need to do anything, since inside '48 you can't even tell there's an occupation at all. I don't see anything changing until the Israelis are willing to make real economic/religious/territorial sacrifices. Maybe a few carefully placed bombs (for maximum publicity and minimal casualties, such as outside Jerusalem City Hall in the middle of the night) could shake things up.

The status quo is benefiting Israel. However, people are overlooking the fact that it shouldn't exist, just as Nazi Germany shouldn't have existed in its time, I mean the Nazi regime and not Germany itself.

Israel exists now. All potential solutions to the problem have to accommodate that. Disestablishing it is a pipe dream, and it almost certainly involves mass murder.

[FPCCOS]

The status quo is benefiting Israel. However, people are overlooking the fact that it shouldn't exist, just as Nazi Germany shouldn't have existed in its time, I mean the Nazi regime and not Germany itself.

Israel exists now. All potential solutions to the problem have to accommodate that. Disestablishing it is a pipe dream, and it almost certainly involves mass murder.

Yes, unfortunately it exists. However, I see no reason why they can't be allowed to establish their state somewhere else, maybe if the US gives them land. I am of Arab heritage and I can tell you that the Palestinians and all Muslims for that matter will never accept the existence of the State of Israel. Eventually, Palestine will be taken back from the Israelis. And there's one more thing that you understand, Palestinians are even more unlikely to accept Israel because Palestine is seen as belonging to all Muslims and not just the Palestinians, as the Muslims are all one nation (the Ummah). No matter how people try to persuade you that the Muslims will accept Israel, they will never do such a thing. Maybe a minority of Muslims accept Israel, however they do not represent mainstream Muslim opinion.

[DogDoo 7]

The current situation is so depressing because the Status Quo (settlements and occupation) is basically Israel's BEST choice, in that they can use the resources of the West Bank (land, water, Dead Sea) AND they don't have to accept the indigenous residents of the land as members of the country. It may not be the best long-term choice, but when your country is barely 64 years old, 5 years in the future seems like forever. Also, not helping matters is that the PA seems to have really cracked down on militancy in the West Bank (possibly because Fayyad and Abu Mazen are getting kickbacks from the Israelis?), so the Israelis don't feel that they need to do anything, since inside '48 you can't even tell there's an occupation at all. I don't see anything changing until the Israelis are willing to make real economic/religious/territorial sacrifices. Maybe a few carefully placed bombs (for maximum publicity and minimal casualties, such as outside Jerusalem City Hall in the middle of the night) could shake things up.

The situation does not need more terrorism. It'll solidify and intensify the bullheaded attitude on both sides. Plus it's reprehensible.

What's wrong with coordinated non-fatal bombings of structures around the country? I seem to recall that it was very effective at getting the British to leave.

[Forster Keys]

Israel exists now. All potential solutions to the problem have to accommodate that. Disestablishing it is a pipe dream, and it almost certainly involves mass murder.

Yes, unfortunately it exists. However, I see no reason why they can't be allowed to establish their state somewhere else, maybe if the US gives them land.

Not going to happen. Many Israelis, Jewish or otherwise have grown up in Israel speaking Hebrew. They know nothing else. Why try and forcibly dislocate them?

I am of Arab heritage and I can tell you that the Palestinians and all Muslims for that matter will never accept the existence of the State of Israel.

Well that is a shame then.

Eventually, Palestine will be taken back from the Israelis.

Perhaps, perhaps not.

And there's one more thing that you understand, Palestinians are even more unlikely to accept Israel because Palestine is seen as belonging to all Muslims and not just the Palestinians, as the Muslims are all one nation (the Ummah). No matter how people try to persuade you that the Muslims will accept Israel, they will never do such a thing. Maybe a minority of Muslims accept Israel, however they do not represent mainstream Muslim opinion.

One nation? Islam doesn't seem very united at the moment. And I really don't follow with the whole "this land belongs to this people" philosophy. If I was either devoutly Jewish or Muslim I might be of a radically different opinion of course. Idyllically the whole region could unite under one secular state, but that seems far away.

[DogDoo 7]

Israel exists now. All potential solutions to the problem have to accommodate that. Disestablishing it is a pipe dream, and it almost certainly involves mass murder.

Yes, unfortunately it exists. However, I see no reason why they can't be allowed to establish their state somewhere else, maybe if the US gives them land. I am of Arab heritage and I can tell you that the Palestinians and all Muslims for that matter will never accept the existence of the State of Israel. Eventually, Palestine will be taken back from the Israelis. And there's one more thing that you understand, Palestinians are even more unlikely to accept Israel because Palestine is seen as belonging to all Muslims and not just the Palestinians, as the Muslims are all one nation (the Ummah). No matter how people try to persuade you that the Muslims will accept Israel, they will never do such a thing. Maybe a minority of Muslims accept Israel, however they do not represent mainstream Muslim opinion.

It doesn't really matter what Muslims think, just as it shouldn't really matter what Jews think. It DOES matter what Palestinians and Israelis think, since they're the people living there. Unfortunately for you, the Israelis had bigger guns (and more fighters) in 1948, and won a war of survival. And now it's considered socially unacceptable to invade countries for conquest, just as it's considered socially unacceptable to appropriate holy places from other religions. So Israel gets to stay, and they don't get to knock down Al Aqsa and build a temple.

[Ruridova]

Idyllically the whole region could unite under one secular state, but that seems far away.

The closest we can get to that are two seperate non-secular states.

[Forster Keys]

The situation does not need more terrorism. It'll solidify and intensify the bullheaded attitude on both sides. Plus it's reprehensible.

What's wrong with coordinated non-fatal bombings of structures around the country? I seem to recall that it was very effective at getting the British to leave.

Not really, their troops were taking quite a lot of casualties from groups like Irgun IIRC. The King David Hotel Bombing wasn't without fatalities either.

[Forster Keys]

Idyllically the whole region could unite under one secular state, but that seems far away.

The closest we can get to that are two seperate non-secular states.

Even that seems far off. Since Hamas negates the secular, and Israel's not really budging on the whole statehood issue.

[Ruridova]

The closest we can get to that are two seperate non-secular states.

Even that seems far off. Since Hamas negates the secular, and Israel's not really budging on the whole statehood issue.

Sadly. We need Palestine under the control of a mild faction and Israel under someone like Yitzakh Rabin(he was the one who was actually willling to negotiate before a hyper-Zionist shot him, right?). And that's gonna be hard to pull off.

[DogDoo 7]

Idyllically the whole region could unite under one secular state, but that seems far away.

The closest we can get to that are two seperate non-secular states.

I could see Palestine ending up secular. They have a large Christian population and they don't really have fundamentalists (besides the KILL ALL JEWS/ISRAELIS FOR ALLAH!!! people, who wouldn't be relevant in this scenario anyway).

[FPCCOS]

Yes, unfortunately it exists. However, I see no reason why they can't be allowed to establish their state somewhere else, maybe if the US gives them land. I am of Arab heritage and I can tell you that the Palestinians and all Muslims for that matter will never accept the existence of the State of Israel. Eventually, Palestine will be taken back from the Israelis. And there's one more thing that you understand, Palestinians are even more unlikely to accept Israel because Palestine is seen as belonging to all Muslims and not just the Palestinians, as the Muslims are all one nation (the Ummah). No matter how people try to persuade you that the Muslims will accept Israel, they will never do such a thing. Maybe a minority of Muslims accept Israel, however they do not represent mainstream Muslim opinion.

It doesn't really matter what Muslims think, just as it shouldn't really matter what Jews think. It DOES matter what Palestinians and Israelis think, since they're the people living there. Unfortunately for you, the Israelis had bigger guns (and more fighters) in 1948, and won a war of survival. And now it's considered socially unacceptable to invade countries for conquest, just as it's considered socially unacceptable to appropriate holy places from other religions. So Israel gets to stay, and they don't get to knock down Al Aqsa and build a temple.

Actually Muslim opinion does matter, it is a country belonging to the Palestinians who are MUSLIM

[Ruridova]

The closest we can get to that are two seperate non-secular states.

I could see Palestine ending up secular. They have a large Christian population and they don't really have fundamentalists (besides the KILL ALL JEWS/ISRAELIS FOR ALLAH!!! people, who wouldn't be relevant in this scenario anyway).

And isn't the Israeli Muslim birthrate higher than the Israeli Jewsih birthrate? If that's true and it stays true, Israel will either have to become secular or wind up in a position similar to South Africa under apartheid, although that's not exactly likely.

[Ruridova]

It doesn't really matter what Muslims think, just as it shouldn't really matter what Jews think. It DOES matter what Palestinians and Israelis think, since they're the people living there. Unfortunately for you, the Israelis had bigger guns (and more fighters) in 1948, and won a war of survival. And now it's considered socially unacceptable to invade countries for conquest, just as it's considered socially unacceptable to appropriate holy places from other religions. So Israel gets to stay, and they don't get to knock down Al Aqsa and build a temple.

Actually Muslim opinion does matter, it is a country belonging to the Palestinians who are MUSLIM

I think he's trying to say that this is not about Judaism and Islam, it's about Israel and Palestine.

[DogDoo 7]

Even that seems far off. Since Hamas negates the secular, and Israel's not really budging on the whole statehood issue.

Sadly. We need Palestine under the control of a mild faction and Israel under someone like Yitzakh Rabin(he was the one who was actually willling to negotiate before a hyper-Zionist shot him, right?). And that's gonna be hard to pull off.

Palestine IS under the control of a mild faction. For the last 3 years, Israel has been training PA military units to kill and arrest militants better. Abu Mazen is more concerned with getting as many people to sign up for his Wataniya mobile company, and Fayyad is concerned with getting people to take out loans from his bank to buy cars and houses. Hell, even the Palestinian equivalent of Joe Sixpack (Ahmed Shisha?) is tired of violence. Nobody wants their (just bought, with a fresh mortgage) house to get bulldozed. There is VERY LITTLE support for militancy in the territories now. Unfortunately, Israel views this as weakness and an excuse to build more settlements.

[DogDoo 7]

It doesn't really matter what Muslims think, just as it shouldn't really matter what Jews think. It DOES matter what Palestinians and Israelis think, since they're the people living there. Unfortunately for you, the Israelis had bigger guns (and more fighters) in 1948, and won a war of survival. And now it's considered socially unacceptable to invade countries for conquest, just as it's considered socially unacceptable to appropriate holy places from other religions. So Israel gets to stay, and they don't get to knock down Al Aqsa and build a temple.

Actually Muslim opinion does matter, it is a country belonging to the Palestinians who are MUSLIM

What about the 20% or so of Palestinians who are Christian. Do they not have a right to their land?

[Absurd Ramblings]

It is the Earth's root chakra, base raw unharnessed power where Moses ate magickal mushrooms and "recieved" the Law.

Who the hell cares about such small things as "Israel" and "Palestine"?

[Forster Keys]

Even that seems far off. Since Hamas negates the secular, and Israel's not really budging on the whole statehood issue.

Sadly. We need Palestine under the control of a mild faction and Israel under someone like Yitzakh Rabin(he was the one who was actually willling to negotiate before a hyper-Zionist shot him, right?). And that's gonna be hard to pull off.

I think so on all counts. Fatah's mellowed out to the point where it can negotiate, as has Avoda as far as I know. But the mood in both nations doesn't work entirely in the favour of those parties.

[Forster Keys]

It doesn't really matter what Muslims think, just as it shouldn't really matter what Jews think. It DOES matter what Palestinians and Israelis think, since they're the people living there. Unfortunately for you, the Israelis had bigger guns (and more fighters) in 1948, and won a war of survival. And now it's considered socially unacceptable to invade countries for conquest, just as it's considered socially unacceptable to appropriate holy places from other religions. So Israel gets to stay, and they don't get to knock down Al Aqsa and build a temple.

Actually Muslim opinion does matter, it is a country belonging to the Palestinians who are MUSLIM

Not now.

[DogDoo 7]

I could see Palestine ending up secular. They have a large Christian population and they don't really have fundamentalists (besides the KILL ALL JEWS/ISRAELIS FOR ALLAH!!! people, who wouldn't be relevant in this scenario anyway).

And isn't the Israeli Muslim birthrate higher than the Israeli Jewsih birthrate? If that's true and it stays true, Israel will either have to become secular or wind up in a position similar to South Africa under apartheid, although that's not exactly likely.

If current birthrate trends continue, in 20 years, Israel (1948 Israel, not 1967 "Israel") will be nothing but Bedouin and Ultra-orthodox Jews. Now THAT will be fun to watch.

[Ruridova]

Sadly. We need Palestine under the control of a mild faction and Israel under someone like Yitzakh Rabin(he was the one who was actually willling to negotiate before a hyper-Zionist shot him, right?). And that's gonna be hard to pull off.

Palestine IS under the control of a mild faction. For the last 3 years, Israel has been training PA military units to kill and arrest militants better. Abu Mazen is more concerned with getting as many people to sign up for his Wataniya mobile company, and Fayyad is concerned with getting people to take out loans from his bank to buy cars and houses. Hell, even the Palestinian equivalent of Joe Sixpack (Ahmed Shisha?) is tired of violence. Nobody wants their (just bought, with a fresh mortgage) house to get bulldozed. There is VERY LITTLE support for militancy in the territories now. Unfortunately, Israel views this as weakness and an excuse to build more settlements.

Huhn. So, who's it under? I'ts definently not Hamas, but do I count Fatah and the PLO as "mild"? Or is it some other group I haven't listed?