Israel vs. Palestine

[Laissez-Faire]

My belief in this whole issue is ultimately that Israel is a competent party to make it's own decisions and feel their consequences. I do not feel diplomatically propping up Israel in any way protects it's sovereignty, which is a vital element in a region as heated as the Middle East. Israel has more than proven itself capable of independent action, and Palestine is ultimately an Israeli issue.

[Jafas United]

Acknowledging the difference between a religion and how it is interpreted is the difference between tolerance and intolerance, between open-mindedness and bigotry. Ideologies don't fail or cause conflict, people do that. Additionally, no evil regime that happens to be of a certain religious persuasion represents the entire population of people of that religion either.

Exactly. I was never arguing with that. The way Islam is interpreted by many Palestinians, and likewise for Judaism, is the reason why this conflict is as divisive as it is. I was more concerned with your comment that people's interpretation of their religion "might" only be a factor.

[Disserbia]

Acknowledging the difference between a religion and how it is interpreted is the difference between tolerance and intolerance, between open-mindedness and bigotry. Ideologies don't fail or cause conflict, people do that. Additionally, no evil regime that happens to be of a certain religious persuasion represents the entire population of people of that religion either.

Exactly. I was never arguing with that. The way Islam is interpreted by many Palestinians, and likewise for Judaism, is the reason why this conflict is as divisive as it is. I was more concerned with your comment that people's interpretation of their religion "might" only be a factor.

I don't think its the way Islam is interpreted by many Palestinians is the problem, I think Palestinians interpret Islam in many different ways and I don't think that many of them are extremist in any way at all. In fact no Palestinian I've met is an extremist Muslim by western standards. I think its the way they interpret to conflict with Israel that is the reason for the conflict. I think religious zionists are the biggest religious influence pushing the conflict, I think for Arabs its mostly political...

[Jafas United]

Exactly. I was never arguing with that. The way Islam is interpreted by many Palestinians, and likewise for Judaism, is the reason why this conflict is as divisive as it is. I was more concerned with your comment that people's interpretation of their religion "might" only be a factor.

I don't think its the way Islam is interpreted by many Palestinians is the problem, I think Palestinians interpret Islam in many different ways and I don't think that many of them are extremist in any way at all. In fact no Palestinian I've met is an extremist Muslim by western standards. I think its the way they interpret to conflict with Israel that is the reason for the conflict. I think religious zionists are the biggest religious influence pushing the conflict, I think for Arabs its mostly political...

Then you'd be wrong.

First of all, Zionism isn't even a religious ideology. This whole mantra of "Oh no! Zionism is evil!" is just a throwaway term used by people who know very little about what Zionism really means.

Zionism is the desire for the Jewish people to live in their homeland in peace. Zionism promotes the existence of the State of Israel to exist as a secular democracy. It is not a religious belief, but a secular and political one.

And how can you say the way Palestinians interpret Islam is not a problem? What do you have to say about Hamas who is in control of the Gaza Strip? Would you not say that they're at least, in part motivated by religion?

I am not blanketing all Palestinians as religious extremists, but is safe to say, that religion is a key issue as to why this conflict is continuing. The way the religion is interpreted, that is.

[Disserbia]

I don't think its the way Islam is interpreted by many Palestinians is the problem, I think Palestinians interpret Islam in many different ways and I don't think that many of them are extremist in any way at all. In fact no Palestinian I've met is an extremist Muslim by western standards. I think its the way they interpret to conflict with Israel that is the reason for the conflict. I think religious zionists are the biggest religious influence pushing the conflict, I think for Arabs its mostly political...

Then you'd be wrong.

First of all, Zionism isn't even a religious ideology. This whole mantra of "Oh no! Zionism is evil!" is just a throwaway term used by people who know very little about what Zionism really means.

Zionism is the desire for the Jewish people to live in their homeland in peace. Zionism promotes the existence of the State of Israel to exist as a secular democracy. It is not a religious belief, but a secular and political one.

And how can you say the way Palestinians interpret Islam is not a problem? What do you have to say about Hamas who is in control of the Gaza Strip? Would you not say that they're at least, in part motivated by religion?

I am not blanketing all Palestinians as religious extremists, but is safe to say, that religion is a key issue as to why this conflict is continuing. The way the religion is interpreted, that is.

I'm not wrong, zionism is a very broad catagory and there are religious zionists. If you can't acknowledge this then you are somewhat out of touch with the reality of the conflict. Hamas does not speak for all Palestinian Muslims, most Palestinian Muslims don't even live in Palestine and most that do are not religious extremists. I really don't think Islam motivates they way they think about Jews or Israel I think its the history of the conflict itself and their perception of the events which led to it.

[Jafas United]

Then you'd be wrong.

First of all, Zionism isn't even a religious ideology. This whole mantra of "Oh no! Zionism is evil!" is just a throwaway term used by people who know very little about what Zionism really means.

Zionism is the desire for the Jewish people to live in their homeland in peace. Zionism promotes the existence of the State of Israel to exist as a secular democracy. It is not a religious belief, but a secular and political one.

And how can you say the way Palestinians interpret Islam is not a problem? What do you have to say about Hamas who is in control of the Gaza Strip? Would you not say that they're at least, in part motivated by religion?

I am not blanketing all Palestinians as religious extremists, but is safe to say, that religion is a key issue as to why this conflict is continuing. The way the religion is interpreted, that is.

I'm not wrong, zionism is a very broad catagory and there are religious zionists. If you can't acknowledge this then you are somewhat out of touch with the reality of the conflict. Hamas does not speak for all Palestinian Muslims, most Palestinian Muslims don't even live in Palestine and most that do are not religious extremists. I really don't think Islam motivates they way they think about Jews or Israel I think its the history of the conflict itself and their perception of the events which led to it.

I know there is Religious Zionism. But Zionism in its pure form is belief that Israel has the right to exist as a sovereign, democratic and secular nation. Zionists support and defend Israel's borders and citizens, whether they be Jewish or not. That's all there is. Religious spins on Zionism is not what it's meant to be in real terms.

Look, I never said Hamas speaks for all Palestinian Muslims. But a reason why Hamas such a broad support base is because they are able to convince their people that what they are doing is right by God.

You should realize that motivation by politics and religion is not mutually exclusive. In fact, in many cases they're inseparable, a la Israel-Palesine conflict.

[Forster Keys]

Of course they don't join radical Islamist organisations, but radical Islamists aren't the be all and end all of the Palestinian liberation movement.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Habash

I guess I stand corrected. But the point point I was trying to make is that there aren't any radical Palestinian Christian terrorist groups. the PFLP's undertone isn't a Christian one, whereas groups such as Hamas have a radical Islamist agenda. And I'm saying this as someone who isn't very religious at all.

Also, I may be wrong, but the PFLP's militant wing, the Abu Ali Mustapha Brigades only use Muslims for their attacks. I am not entirely sure, but that is something I heard.

The PFLP seems entirely secular in line with their Leninist ideology. Fatah and the PLO are also secular (though not actively pursuing terrorism by all accounts), and a lot of Christians can be found among there ranks, and amongst there founders. But no, there doesn't seem to be a major Christian terrorist group.

[Disserbia]

I'm not wrong, zionism is a very broad catagory and there are religious zionists. If you can't acknowledge this then you are somewhat out of touch with the reality of the conflict. Hamas does not speak for all Palestinian Muslims, most Palestinian Muslims don't even live in Palestine and most that do are not religious extremists. I really don't think Islam motivates they way they think about Jews or Israel I think its the history of the conflict itself and their perception of the events which led to it.

I know there is Religious Zionism. But Zionism in its pure form is belief that Israel has the right to exist as a sovereign, democratic and secular nation. Zionists support and defend Israel's borders and citizens, whether they be Jewish or not. That's all there is. Religious spins on Zionism is not what it's meant to be in real terms.

Look, I never said Hamas speaks for all Palestinian Muslims. But a reason why Hamas such a broad support base is because they are able to convince their people that what they are doing is right by God.

You should realize that motivation by politics and religion is not mutually exclusive. In fact, in many cases they're inseparable, a la Israel-Palesine conflict.

What are you saying I'm wrong about then? I think religious zionism is more of an issue in this particular conflict than Muslim extremism because I think must Palestinians view this as a political issue, not a religious one, Hamas included. Also, after talking to people from Gaza, I don't believe the reason you stated to be the reason Hamas has so much support. Just because Hamas has some Muslim extremists and support from some Muslim extremists does not mean that they or the majority of their supporters view this as a religious issue. Just because someone is a religion doesn't mean they view everything as a religious issue and do not deal at all in the political.

I'm not entirely sure you know what I mean by religious zionism.

[BoudreauxLand]

All i can say about the matter is the US shouldnt have stuck our nose in the buisness. The people have been fighting for years have they not? They even offered us oil to stay out of their buisness right? We are in a recession right now and the price of gas is up ,why couldnt we have taken the deal? In a way we stole land from people and gave it to others and thats wrong by my standards.
Could the war on terror have provoked us to do that, or is our government really that evil.

[Milks Empire]

All i can say about the matter is the US shouldnt have stuck our nose in the buisness. The people have been fighting for years have they not? They even offered us oil to stay out of their buisness right? We are in a recession right now and the price of gas is up ,why couldnt we have taken the deal? In a way we stole land from people and gave it to others and thats wrong by my standards.
Could the war on terror have provoked us to do that, or is our government really that evil.

Umm... This problem dates to long before 2001...

[Disserbia]

All i can say about the matter is the US shouldnt have stuck our nose in the buisness. The people have been fighting for years have they not? They even offered us oil to stay out of their buisness right? We are in a recession right now and the price of gas is up ,why couldnt we have taken the deal? In a way we stole land from people and gave it to others and thats wrong by my standards.
Could the war on terror have provoked us to do that, or is our government really that evil.

The US is not to blame for this territorial conflict, Britain is.
Its not over oil.
Its been going on for the better part of a century.

[Jafas United]

I know there is Religious Zionism. But Zionism in its pure form is belief that Israel has the right to exist as a sovereign, democratic and secular nation. Zionists support and defend Israel's borders and citizens, whether they be Jewish or not. That's all there is. Religious spins on Zionism is not what it's meant to be in real terms.

Look, I never said Hamas speaks for all Palestinian Muslims. But a reason why Hamas such a broad support base is because they are able to convince their people that what they are doing is right by God.

You should realize that motivation by politics and religion is not mutually exclusive. In fact, in many cases they're inseparable, a la Israel-Palesine conflict.

What are you saying I'm wrong about then? I think religious zionism is more of an issue in this particular conflict than Muslim extremism because I think must Palestinians view this as a political issue, not a religious one, Hamas included. Also, after talking to people from Gaza, I don't believe the reason you stated to be the reason Hamas has so much support. Just because Hamas has some Muslim extremists and support from some Muslim extremists does not mean that they or the majority of their supporters view this as a religious issue. Just because someone is a religion doesn't mean they view everything as a religious issue and do not deal at all in the political.

I'm not entirely sure you know what I mean by religious zionism.

I'm saying you're wrong on the impact religion has on the conflict and Zionism.

First of all 97% of Palestinians view Jews unfavorably. Not the State of Israel, but Jews themselves. Clearly, there is more than politics going on. If it was mostly political, the anger would be more directed towards the State of Israel, not the Jewish people.

Let's be clear, Hamas has a religious agenda. There is no two ways about it. If Hamas relied solely on politics, they wouldn't be as popular as they are today. Religion and politics can easily mix, how can you not see that?

And "Religious Zionism" as you say it is by no means a major issue in this conflict. For Israelis this conflict is more a matter of their own existence rather than them fighting for Judaism. Especially when the Israeli government is a secular one, the Israeli people are largely secular and "Religious Zionism" plays only a minor role in Israeli politics. And even at that, 58% of Israelis back a two state solution.

This is what you mean by Religious Zionism, right? For Christ's sake, that is not what true Zionism is. Religious Zionism is not in favor in Israel. Come back when you can show me that most Israelis support a theocratic state and a one state solution.

[BoudreauxLand]

All i can say about the matter is the US shouldnt have stuck our nose in the buisness. The people have been fighting for years have they not? They even offered us oil to stay out of their buisness right? We are in a recession right now and the price of gas is up ,why couldnt we have taken the deal? In a way we stole land from people and gave it to others and thats wrong by my standards.
Could the war on terror have provoked us to do that, or is our government really that evil.

Umm... This problem dates to long before 2001...

Ya didn't it start with Iraq invading Kuwait and the UN banning nuclear weapons?
All well apparently Idont know that much about it.
I will just leave it alone

[Disserbia]

What are you saying I'm wrong about then? I think religious zionism is more of an issue in this particular conflict than Muslim extremism because I think must Palestinians view this as a political issue, not a religious one, Hamas included. Also, after talking to people from Gaza, I don't believe the reason you stated to be the reason Hamas has so much support. Just because Hamas has some Muslim extremists and support from some Muslim extremists does not mean that they or the majority of their supporters view this as a religious issue. Just because someone is a religion doesn't mean they view everything as a religious issue and do not deal at all in the political.

I'm not entirely sure you know what I mean by religious zionism.

I'm saying you're wrong on the impact religion has on the conflict and Zionism.

First of all 97% of Palestinians view Jews unfavorably. Not the State of Israel, but Jews themselves. Clearly, there is more than politics going on. If it was mostly political, the anger would be more directed towards the State of Israel, not the Jewish people.

Let's be clear, Hamas has a religious agenda. There is no two ways about it. If Hamas relied solely on politics, they wouldn't be as popular as they are today. Religion and politics can easily mix, how can you not see that?

And "Religious Zionism" as you say it is by no means a major issue in this conflict. For Israelis this conflict is more a matter of their own existence rather than them fighting for Judaism. Especially when the Israeli government is a secular one, the Israeli people are largely secular and "Religious Zionism" plays only a minor role in Israeli politics. And even at that, 58% of Israelis back a two state solution.

This is what you mean by Religious Zionism, right? For Christ's sake, that is not what true Zionism is. Religious Zionism is not in favor in Israel. Come back when you can show me that most Israelis support a theocratic state and a one state solution.

Palestinians may view Jews unfavorably, because they view it as an ethnic/political conflict not because they are Muslim. Just because some ignorant people dislike Jews rather than the state of Israel, does not mean they dislike Jews because they are Muslim, it means they dislike Jews because they are ignorant. Islam and ignorance and two different things, you get me? By religious zionism I mean the zionists who want to live in the settlements and view this as the aliyah and that they are entitled to all of Israel because of the bible. They are legion, and they are at the center of a bitter conflict that is at the heart of the Israel/Palestine conflict. Most Israelis I know view these people as a huge obstacle to peace. I really wish I had filmed more people's opinions when I was there so I could post them but I can't and anyway people tend to be a little less candid on camera.

What is Hamas' clear religious agenda, because I'm pretty sure that most people like them because of their political agenda.

[Milks Empire]

Umm... This problem dates to long before 2001...

Ya didn't it start with Iraq invading Kuwait and the UN banning nuclear weapons?
All well apparently Idont know that much about it.
I will just leave it alone

Iraq and Kuwait have fuck all to do with any of this.

[BoudreauxLand]

Ya didn't it start with Iraq invading Kuwait and the UN banning nuclear weapons?
All well apparently Idont know that much about it.
I will just leave it alone

Iraq and Kuwait have fuck all to do with any of this.

I will get it one day!!

[Forster Keys]

Interesting data here.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/153548/opini ... flict.aspx

[Greater Melayu]

I've read Palestinian Walks, written by Raja Shehadeh, from Christian family. In this book, the main problem is Jewish settlements multiply and always dilated. As a result, the Arab villages are not crowded and can expand its territory. That way, there would be only one country, namely Israel. They go around claiming that it was their land. "It was common ground," they reason. And if it's true public land, should not the Jews who could use it. Everyone can use it.

[Jafas United]

Palestinians may view Jews unfavorably, because they view it as an ethnic/political conflict not because they are Muslim. Just because some ignorant people dislike Jews rather than the state of Israel, does not mean they dislike Jews because they are Muslim, it means they dislike Jews because they are ignorant. Islam and ignorance and two different things, you get me? By religious zionism I mean the zionists who want to live in the settlements and view this as the aliyah and that they are entitled to all of Israel because of the bible. They are legion, and they are at the center of a bitter conflict that is at the heart of the Israel/Palestine conflict. Most Israelis I know view these people as a huge obstacle to peace. I really wish I had filmed more people's opinions when I was there so I could post them but I can't and anyway people tend to be a little less candid on camera.

Of course. But why do you keep denying that religion plays a part in this conflict? How can you not see that?

And I know the West Bank settlements are an obstacle to peace. But the Palestinians have also shown themselves to not be too keen on peace i.e. rejecting the Clinton parameters.

What is Hamas' clear religious agenda, because I'm pretty sure that most people like them because of their political agenda.

You have a source on that?

[Cromarty]

For Israel-Palestinian conflict? Yes, I do.

How stupid.

[Disserbia]

Palestinians may view Jews unfavorably, because they view it as an ethnic/political conflict not because they are Muslim. Just because some ignorant people dislike Jews rather than the state of Israel, does not mean they dislike Jews because they are Muslim, it means they dislike Jews because they are ignorant. Islam and ignorance and two different things, you get me? By religious zionism I mean the zionists who want to live in the settlements and view this as the aliyah and that they are entitled to all of Israel because of the bible. They are legion, and they are at the center of a bitter conflict that is at the heart of the Israel/Palestine conflict. Most Israelis I know view these people as a huge obstacle to peace. I really wish I had filmed more people's opinions when I was there so I could post them but I can't and anyway people tend to be a little less candid on camera.

Of course. But why do you keep denying that religion plays a part in this conflict? How can you not see that?

And I know the West Bank settlements are an obstacle to peace. But the Palestinians have also shown themselves to not be too keen on peace i.e. rejecting the Clinton parameters.

What is Hamas' clear religious agenda, because I'm pretty sure that most people like them because of their political agenda.

You have a source on that?

Because I don't think the religion of Islam played a role in the conflict, especially after studying this topic in depth. Oh and also you haven't make a very convincing case.

Whether or not Palestinians want peace it has nothing to do with Islam and you still havent given me any reason to believe otherwise.

I asked you what Hamas' religious agenda is, you haven't told me, so unless you do I have to assume bs.

[Jafas United]

Of course. But why do you keep denying that religion plays a part in this conflict? How can you not see that?

And I know the West Bank settlements are an obstacle to peace. But the Palestinians have also shown themselves to not be too keen on peace i.e. rejecting the Clinton parameters.


You have a source on that?

Because I don't think the religion of Islam played a role in the conflict, especially after studying this topic in depth. Oh and also you haven't make a very convincing case.

Whether or not Palestinians want peace it has nothing to do with Islam and you still havent given me any reason to believe otherwise.

I asked you what Hamas' religious agenda is, you haven't told me, so unless you do I have to assume bs.

Neither have you. Especially when you're using personal anecdotes to back yourself up, but whatever you say.

I never said Islam itself has to do with the conflict. But the toxic mix of religion and politics does. Why can't you accept that?

Really? You're asking me what Hamas' agenda is? It's a Christfucking Islamist one. As if that wasn't obvious already.

Anyway, here's a few quotes from Hamas' charter which are just so choice.

Israel will rise and will remain erect until Islam eliminates it as it had eliminated its predecessors.

The Islamic World is burning. It is incumbent upon each one of us to pour some water, little as it may be, with a view of extinguishing as much of the fire as he can, without awaiting action by the others.

The Islamic Resistance Movement draws its guidelines from Islam; derives from it its thinking, interpretations and views about existence, life and humanity; refers back to it for its conduct; and is inspired by it in whatever step it takes.

The Movement welcomes all Muslims who share its beliefs and thinking, commit themselves to its course of action, keep its secrets and aspire to join its ranks in order to carry out their duty.

Allah will reward them.

I could go on and on, but you get the idea...or not. Clearly, Hamas' agenda isn't at all influenced by religion.

[Shuggy555]

Iraq and Kuwait have fuck all to do with any of this.

I will get it one day!!

Israel was created by th UK after WW1 as they were the ones under control of palestine after the ottoman empire was destroyed...

All the problems started from then on...

[Jafas United]

I will get it one day!!

Israel was created by th UK after WW1 as they were the ones under control of palestine after the ottoman empire was destroyed...

All the problems started from then on...

Nope. It was created by the UN. And it was inevitably going to happen, unfortunately, it took a Holocaust as a wake up call for action.

[Shuggy555]

Israel was created by th UK after WW1 as they were the ones under control of palestine after the ottoman empire was destroyed...

All the problems started from then on...

Nope. It was created by the UN. And it was inevitably going to happen, unfortunately, it took a Holocaust as a wake up call for action.

What do you mean inevitable, all there doing is displacing one homeless ethic for another...

i'm not condoning either israel or palestine atm but the idea that a ethnic group actuely needs its own nation is silly, yes the jews suffered horribly in the holocuast but that doesn't mean they should take control of a land that another group of people live in thus displacing them...