Israel vs. Palestine

[Ambraciel]

Iran is a corrupt and barbaric regime and I completely agree with you on that. However, to say that Iran tortures people doesn't justify the Israelis using torture

Secondly, if a suicide bomber had detonated a bomb, he would be dead so saying that in response to the fact that Israel has imprisoned thousands of innocent people and denied them a trial even does not make sense and the existence of suicide bombers does not justify imprisoning innocent people- that's like the government saying there are mass murderers on the lose, so we're going to arrest any random person.

Erm... actually it was the land of the Palestinians and indigenous Jews for centuries and yes it had the name Palestine (in arabic Filistin) and it was a part of Sham which covered Palestine, Jordan, Syria

Yes you are right for saying that without forcing people to join the army they would be defenseless

I am not saying no aid reaches Gaza, however in the past the Israelis have blocked aid from reaching Gaza (for example the Flotilla that was supposed to reach Gaza where the Israelis actually killed people on the boat- you can not justify that.

Israel doesn't even serve its own 1st class citizens - Israelis properly so why would they serve the Palestinians. The Israeli regime is only interested in serving their own interests.

War-Crimes- The Gaza Siege is a perfect example of the Israelis committing war-crimes

The sustained systematic killing of the Palestinians is sufficient to call it genocide

To use the example of the war-crimes in Syria to justify Israeli crimes is ridiculous- the Syrian regime committing war-crimes does not justify the Israelis doing the same

Yes you are correct to say that more aid is now getting through due to the opening of the border between Gaza and Egypt, as a result of the overthrowing of Hosni Mubarak, who served the interests of the Israelis by blocking the border

Unfortunately\, the Israelis do not have any legitimate reason for the continued existence of the Israeli regime. All of Palestine should be returned to the Palestinians and Israeli citizens can then decide if they wish to stay or whether they want to leave. And the Americans who have been supporting them so loyally can maybe bankroll the establishment of a new Israeli state within one of its states. I mean they have lots of land.

Israeli torture? nonesense. what torture exactly?
I'd like to hear some claims which are actually for once based on real events and not your own bubble of unconfrimed ideas.
Throwing lies just because they fit your agenda well, is rather pathetic.

When I said suicide bombers, these words replaced what I actually wanted to write, which was shahids. I hope this makes more sense.
Planning to suicide, teaching kids their ultimate goal in life (which is to explode in a bus and kill random people, innoncent or not while the answer is obvious) is not innocence.

Palestine was never a state. it doesn't matter what arabs called it like, it really doesn't matter. It was never really a state and this can not be put to doubt, the only time it was state was a very short period in which they immediately declared war which they have lost, then they partly ceased to exist.

No, that's not it. Aid was going to gaza, by the israeli government, which shouldn't have even sent them food IMO, which they didn't deserve, for leeching. taking aid, building a 5* hotel and carino's restaurant, then spreading propaganda about being discriminated, starved.

Ofcourse Israel serves it's own citizens, you can say it doesn't, but in fact it does everything well enough, atleast much better than a Palestinian state would without doubt.

Now,:
The sustained systematic killing of the Palestinians is sufficient to call it genocide

Well I love this line, I like the use of the word systematic, like if they're sent into gas chambers.
take a break, I'm serious, genocide? it wasn't the government's finest idea, but except for a few stupid morons on our side who decided to mess with civilians, they deserved atleast some of it.

And I will never forget the stupid picture,
http://www.idfblog.com/wp-content/uploa ... -fake2.jpg
which was only one of quite a few fake propaganda pics released.

The genocide in Syria is a genocide, there's no doubt.
But Israel? has never committed real genocide, you can look forever.


They have lots of land? lawl why, the whole middle east is full of arab nations. I can say the same.
The Israel has the full legitimacy to continue it's regime exactly where it is now, a few arabic cities less and there you go.

[Disserbia]

Iran is a corrupt and barbaric regime and I completely agree with you on that. However, to say that Iran tortures people doesn't justify the Israelis using torture

Secondly, if a suicide bomber had detonated a bomb, he would be dead so saying that in response to the fact that Israel has imprisoned thousands of innocent people and denied them a trial even does not make sense and the existence of suicide bombers does not justify imprisoning innocent people- that's like the government saying there are mass murderers on the lose, so we're going to arrest any random person.

Erm... actually it was the land of the Palestinians and indigenous Jews for centuries and yes it had the name Palestine (in arabic Filistin) and it was a part of Sham which covered Palestine, Jordan, Syria

Yes you are right for saying that without forcing people to join the army they would be defenseless

I am not saying no aid reaches Gaza, however in the past the Israelis have blocked aid from reaching Gaza (for example the Flotilla that was supposed to reach Gaza where the Israelis actually killed people on the boat- you can not justify that.

Israel doesn't even serve its own 1st class citizens - Israelis properly so why would they serve the Palestinians. The Israeli regime is only interested in serving their own interests.

War-Crimes- The Gaza Siege is a perfect example of the Israelis committing war-crimes

The sustained systematic killing of the Palestinians is sufficient to call it genocide

To use the example of the war-crimes in Syria to justify Israeli crimes is ridiculous- the Syrian regime committing war-crimes does not justify the Israelis doing the same

Yes you are correct to say that more aid is now getting through due to the opening of the border between Gaza and Egypt, as a result of the overthrowing of Hosni Mubarak, who served the interests of the Israelis by blocking the border

Unfortunately\, the Israelis do not have any legitimate reason for the continued existence of the Israeli regime. All of Palestine should be returned to the Palestinians and Israeli citizens can then decide if they wish to stay or whether they want to leave. And the Americans who have been supporting them so loyally can maybe bankroll the establishment of a new Israeli state within one of its states. I mean they have lots of land.

Israeli torture? nonesense. what torture exactly?
I'd like to hear some claims which are actually for once based on real events and not your own bubble of unconfrimed ideas.
Throwing lies just because they fit your agenda well, is rather pathetic.

When I said suicide bombers, these words replaced what I actually wanted to write, which was shahids. I hope this makes more sense.
Planning to suicide, teaching kids their ultimate goal in life (which is to explode in a bus and kill random people, innoncent or not while the answer is obvious) is not innocence.

Palestine was never a state. it doesn't matter what arabs called it like, it really doesn't matter. It was never really a state and this can not be put to doubt, the only time it was state was a very short period in which they immediately declared war which they have lost, then they partly ceased to exist.

No, that's not it. Aid was going to gaza, by the israeli government, which shouldn't have even sent them food IMO, which they didn't deserve, for leeching. taking aid, building a 5* hotel and carino's restaurant, then spreading propaganda about being discriminated, starved.

Ofcourse Israel serves it's own citizens, you can say it doesn't, but in fact it does everything well enough, atleast much better than a Palestinian state would without doubt.

Now,:
The sustained systematic killing of the Palestinians is sufficient to call it genocide

Well I love this line, I like the use of the word systematic, like if they're sent into gas chambers.
take a break, I'm serious, genocide? it wasn't the government's finest idea, but except for a few stupid morons on our side who decided to mess with civilians, they deserved atleast some of it.

And I will never forget the stupid picture,
http://www.idfblog.com/wp-content/uploa ... -fake2.jpg
which was only one of quite a few fake propaganda pics released.

The genocide in Syria is a genocide, there's no doubt.
But Israel? has never committed real genocide, you can look forever.


They have lots of land? lawl why, the whole middle east is full of arab nations. I can say the same.
The Israel has the full legitimacy to continue it's regime exactly where it is now, a few arabic cities less and there you go.

There is no genocide in Syria or Palestine, but there are crimes against humanity taking place in both.

[Evraim]

There is no genocide in Syria or Palestine, but there are crimes against humanity taking place in both.

There really isn't genocide occuring in Israel either.

FPCCOS, I do intend to respond to your rather polished and lovely post as soon as I am able. Also, may I address you by something slightly less robotic? If not, I won't push the issue, and I had no intention of insulting you by asking...

[Disserbia]

There is no genocide in Syria or Palestine, but there are crimes against humanity taking place in both.

There really isn't genocide occuring in Israel either.

FPCCOS, I do intend to respond to your rather polished and lovely post as soon as I am able. Also, may I address you by something slightly less robotic? If not, I won't push the issue, and I had no intention of insulting you by asking...

Right, so now read my post again, and then stop accusing me of saying things that I'm not. thanks.

[The Mongol Ilkhanate]

Before 1948 the country belonged to the British, the Palestinians who lived in the villages were told by their own authorities to flee from their houses in the 1940s because they claimed they would beat the Israelis and then they could return. The Palestinians who didn't flee now live happily in Israel with healthcare, jobs, ability to run for government and freedom of religion!

Unfortunately, Israel has influence over all major media in Europe and North America and so is able to create an image of itself as a humanitarian state founded on human rights, justice and human dignity. However, this is not the case. To be blunt, Israel was based on stealing land belonging to refugees who had fled terrorist groups like the Irgun and the Levi who were supported by the Zionist founders of Israel. Now can a state founded on terrorism really be against terrorism. The main argument for the establishment of the Israeli state was that the Jewish people didn't have a state of their own. So what, countless different peoples don't have a state that is solely composed of only their people yet I don't see many of these peoples waging a war of terror and injustice like Israel is.
For anyone who isn't convinced of the Israeli regime's racist nature should go and search on Google his many racist and inflammatory nature "we will not allow the Jewish nature of Israel to be compromised". Israel is a "Jewish" state.

Even to use the word "Israel" to describe the Zionist entity is a disgrace to the Honorable Prophet Jacob (Yaqub) whose name is now used to describe one of the world's most oppressive and evil governments.

Did not Muhammad invade Mecca? Did not Muhammad forcibly colonize? Did the Caliphates expand peacefully? If nothing else, the Israels kicked the living crap out of you people despite being outnumbered and outgunned. Three times they beat you like a parent beats a misbehaving child in a bunch of crappy third world countries. But did they march to Damascus, slaughtering along the way? Nope. DId they take the opportunity they had and level Mecca? Nope.

Oh, by the way, I'm sorry, but Muslims can't be trusted to keep their house in order with other religions.

Incidents like

This

have kind of taken that from you. And the killing of the Copts in Egypt.

How can you say Israel is one of the most oppressive. I can walk anywhere in Israel. They can't hide anything. I can't set FOOT in North Korea, or Iran. Remember those hikers? Palestinians can go in Israel all they want. Step 12 inches into the Iranian border and you're locked up for life.

[Ruridova]

Be honest: both sides have commited horrible crimes and done terrible things to the other. There is no "morally good side".

[The Mongol Ilkhanate]

Be honest: both sides have commited horrible crimes and done terrible things to the other. There is no "morally good side".

I think there is.

If you let Israel continue, worst you get is settlers and fences. Let Iran take over, and we'll be dealing with another holocaust.


The only reason Israel fights so hard, and wins, is because they know they'll die if they don't. Men who know losing means certain destruction and annihilation of their families fight hard. But the Arabs who invade? They don't care. They can go home and they know the wife and kids are safe if they give up the war.

[Ruridova]

Be honest: both sides have commited horrible crimes and done terrible things to the other. There is no "morally good side".

I think there is.

If you let Israel continue, worst you get is settlers and fences. Let Iran take over, and we'll be dealing with another holocaust.

If you let Israel continue, then worst you get is hundreds of people being brutally driven out of their homes by armed men, tanks, bulldozers, and rockets. Those that refuse will either be shot to death or walled in and starved to death; when NPOs try to give them food, medicine, education, water, and other necessities they will be turned around. Let Palestine continue, the worst you get is a brutal recurring series of terrorist strikes led by extremist Muslims, resulting in mass carnage. Either way- Israel of Palestine- hundreds if not thousands die in a terrible holocaust because of some stalemate of a conflict started over some land that two groups of Semitic people couldn't share because of something that some prophet who has been dead for at least a thousand years supposedly said. enforce the two-state solution and a ceasefire, and put both countries under moderate non-Zionist/non-Hamas leadership and those deaths don't occur.

Also, this is "Israel vs. Palestine" not "Israel vs. Iran". Keep that in mind. If you want to talk about how evil Iran is, start your own thread on that. Yes, Israel may have some slight moral high ground when it comes to Iran versus Israel. But this isn't a thread about that relationship. It's about Israel and Palestine. Iran is another story and should thus be left out.

[The Mongol Ilkhanate]

If you let Israel continue, then worst you get is hundreds of people being brutally driven out of their homes by armed men, tanks, bulldozers, and rockets.

Examples?

Anyway, Iran practically runs the Islamic middle east. They fund the PLO. They prop up Al-Asad. Iran is the disease, the extremism and the like is merely the symptom.

[Ruridova]

If you let Israel continue, then worst you get is hundreds of people being brutally driven out of their homes by armed men, tanks, bulldozers, and rockets.

Examples?

Anyway, Iran practically runs the Islamic middle east. They fund the PLO. They prop up Al-Asad. Iran is the disease, the extremism and the like is merely the symptom.

Large List of references to Israeli and Palestinian crimes.
This can prove the bulldozers.
This can prove that Israelis starve Palestinians and brutally attack those who try to help them.

If this doesn't satisfy you due to its location, there is a wonderful references section at the bottom of the pages. Feel free to use those links.

Anyways, I'd like some sources for the Iranian stuff. I can believe that they prop up Bashar al-Assad. And Hamas, and Hezbullah. And yes, both the Supreme Ayatollah and the President of Iraq are Shia. But you're telling me that Iran runs the entire Muslim world? I call a big, fat bullshit. The other Persian Gulf nations are dependent on western petrodollars. And I doubt that the North African areas of the Muslim world that have just undergone large revolutions have any reason to support an undemocratic nation. I doubt that Jordan has any reason to support Iran. And the Lebanese government and the Syrian protestors have no like for Hezbullah or al-Assad. And let's keep in mind that Karzai of Afghanistan is a US puppet and that Pakistan wouldn't be caught dead allying Iran. Not with the US already exerting so much military presence along the border and in the air. For that matter, the religious schism means that much of the "Islamic Middle east" is opposed to Iranian religion and will thus be less willing to support Iran.
Out of curiosity, do you watch FOX?

[The UK in Exile]

point being you can't steal someone elses land just because you don't feel safe.

Before 1948 the country belonged to the British, the Palestinians who lived in the villages were told by their own authorities to flee from their houses in the 1940s because they claimed they would beat the Israelis and then they could return. The Palestinians who didn't flee now live happily in Israel with healthcare, jobs, ability to run for government and freedom of religion!

capital, just let those who did flee back.

[Cromarty]

If you let Israel continue, then worst you get is hundreds of people being brutally driven out of their homes by armed men, tanks, bulldozers, and rockets.

Examples?

Anyway, Iran practically runs the Islamic middle east.

Lol no.

They fund the PLO.

So do millions of others.

They prop up Al-Asad.

So does Russia.

Iran is the disease, the extremism and the like is merely the symptom.

It's rhetoric like this that makes countries from Iran not want to negotiate with the west.

[The Mongol Ilkhanate]

Examples?

Anyway, Iran practically runs the Islamic middle east.

Lol no.

They fund the PLO.

So do millions of others.

They prop up Al-Asad.

So does Russia.

Iran is the disease, the extremism and the like is merely the symptom.

It's rhetoric like this that makes countries from Iran not want to negotiate with the west.

No. They don't want to negotiate with the West because they're out of their minds. They run over their people with tanks.

1. As well, it's worth noting that freedom flotilla was armed. The Israelis came with paintball guns, and you can see they're the ones getting beaten up in all the footage by men with sticks. Then they've had enough, pull out their pistols, and proceed to wreck the Muslims like Israelis always do.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0LulDJh4fWI


Contrast that with examples from when Muslims are in control of non Muslims, not the other way around.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allahdad_incident

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damascus_affair

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farhud

[Cromarty]

No. They don't want to negotiate with the West because they're out of their minds. They run over their people with tanks.

Except people much smarter and more experienced in international relations than you think Iran is playing a very shrewd game. I wonder who I should believe.

1. As well, it's worth noting that freedom flotilla was armed.

Allegedly.

The Israelis came with paintball guns, and you can see they're the ones getting beaten up in all the footage by men with sticks. Then they've had enough, pull out their pistols, and proceed to wreck the Muslims like Israelis always do.

The Israelis came in hot, like they always do.

They ended up kidnapping 800 people in a clear act of piracy. They then proceeded to beat prisoners, steal their laptops and mobile phones, make charges with their credit cards, and deny them the right of the lawyer. This was Israeli soldiers and police.

Israeli lawmakers were no better, denying parliamentary privileges to an Arab member of the Knesset, labelling her a traitor. 500 people joined a facebook group calling for her execution.

This is your 'reasonable' Israel.

[Ambraciel]

No. They don't want to negotiate with the West because they're out of their minds. They run over their people with tanks.

Except people much smarter and more experienced in international relations than you think Iran is playing a very shrewd game. I wonder who I should believe.

1. As well, it's worth noting that freedom flotilla was armed.

Allegedly.

The Israelis came with paintball guns, and you can see they're the ones getting beaten up in all the footage by men with sticks. Then they've had enough, pull out their pistols, and proceed to wreck the Muslims like Israelis always do.

The Israelis came in hot, like they always do.

They ended up kidnapping 800 people in a clear act of piracy. They then proceeded to beat prisoners, steal their laptops and mobile phones, make charges with their credit cards, and deny them the right of the lawyer. This was Israeli soldiers and police.

Israeli lawmakers were no better, denying parliamentary privileges to an Arab member of the Knesset, labelling her a traitor. 500 people joined a facebook group calling for her execution.

This is your 'reasonable' Israel.

Yeah sure, run over people with their tanks. Just go and continue spraying bullshit all over this site, the Gaza operation was justified, for god's sake more than 8 years of missiles being sent constantly from Gaza.
Have you ever wondered why this was just Gaza and not the West Bank? the operation was not caused by immense hate, for a change there's one nation in this corrupt middle east which it's motive was not hate.
But rather to get in there, shoot off these douchebags which were constantly sending missiles towards the enemy, and were left untouched, for more than 8 years Israel did not respond.
Then, one day it was enough, they got into Gaza and punished these arses.
The wrong side was that some of these soldiers who entered Gaza were extremely brutal, but again, many of them were then punished (woah, have you heard of it? no. because you don't care.) all these morons who went on killing innocent people were not ordered by the army to do so, to your suprise - Soldiers were only ordered to kill terrorists, and not touch a single innocent civilian, it's a different story when those terrorist went into schools, and people's houses to protect themselves and use civilians as human shields - and even at that case, IDF soldiers were ordered to not hurt a civillian, and I am aware that in a few cases these soldiers did hurt civillians, and it's shame, really.

They ended up kidnapping 800 people in a clear act of piracy. They then proceeded to beat prisoners, steal their laptops and mobile phones, make charges with their credit cards, and deny them the right of the lawyer. This was Israeli soldiers and police.: lawl. kidnapping? they spent a night or so in Ashdod and were sent back to the place they came from.
Israelis were beaten, these 'humanitarian' guys came with baseball bats, knives and a pistol. If they wouldn't have had weapons on them, and if they wouldn't go and beat a soldier on the first moment they got, they would've proceeded into Gaza and got out safely.
But these Barbarians only know how to use their hands.

Steal their stuff? lawl where did you hear that. it's illegal, if one of them would have been caught (an israeli soldiers stealing and use their credit cards, or being caught stealing) he would spend a few nights in jail I believe.

Israeli lawmakers were no better, denying parliamentary privileges to an Arab member of the Knesset, labelling her a traitor. 500 people joined a facebook group calling for her execution.?
These were not israeli lawmakers, but excuse me, being on the Gaza Floatilla, when it's passengers were armed and used their weapons against Israeli soldiers, and being the same time on the Israeli parliament? it's called being a traitor.
The Facebook group calling her execution? well there are such groups everywhere, especially in your 'reasonable' Gaza and it's allied states. These groups mean nothing, especially when this woman still appears on the Israeli television, is being interviewed and discusses important matter and even exchanges jokes with Israelis, despite what she said and despite what they said about her.

[Cromarty]

Yeah sure, run over people with their tanks. Just go and continue spraying bullshit all over this site, the Gaza operation was justified,

In your opinion. It wasn't justified and was incredibly poorly handled, as an Israeli government report stated

for god's sake more than 8 years of missiles being sent constantly from Gaza.

>hamas fires missiles into israel

>attack unarmed humanitarian convoy

wat

Have you ever wondered why this was just Gaza and not the West Bank?

Because the PLO control the West Bank and are the recognised, by Israel and most of the world, sole voice of the Palestinian people, who have renounced violence and condemn terrorism?

But rather to get in there, shoot off these douchebags which were constantly sending missiles towards the enemy, and were left untouched, for more than 8 years Israel did not respond.

Uh, Israel pretty frequently made forays into Gaza against weapons caches, and Hamas strongholds.

Then, one day it was enough, they got into Gaza and punished these arses.

As well as imposing an illegal blockade.

The wrong side was that some of these soldiers who entered Gaza were extremely brutal, but again, many of them were then punished (woah, have you heard of it? no. because you don't care.) all these morons who went on killing innocent people were not ordered by the army to do so, to your suprise

Stop with the assuming my reactions. You know nothing about me and what I know.

And for the record, I have heard of it.

Soldiers were only ordered to kill terrorists, and not touch a single innocent civilian,

Israel has an interesting definition of terrorist.

it's a different story when those terrorist went into schools, and people's houses to protect themselves and use civilians as human shields - and even at that case, IDF soldiers were ordered to not hurt a civillian, and I am aware that in a few cases these soldiers did hurt civillians, and it's shame, really.

Yes it is a shame.

kidnapping? they spent a night or so in Ashdod and were sent back to the place they came from.

I was quoting the Irish Foreign Minister

Israelis were beaten, these 'humanitarian' guys came with baseball bats, knives and a pistol.

Allegedly had a pistol.

If they wouldn't have had weapons on them, and if they wouldn't go and beat a soldier on the first moment they got, they would've proceeded into Gaza and got out safely.

Bullshit, and you know it. Israel had no intention of letting that flotilla get to Gaza, and broke international law by attacking the convoy in international waters.

But these Barbarians only know how to use their hands.

Steal their stuff? lawl where did you hear that.

Irish times article on Israel charging soldiers with theft.
Linking to irishantiwar because the Irish Times is a pay site, and you only get the first two paragraphs there.

it's illegal, if one of them would have been caught (an israeli soldiers stealing and use their credit cards, or being caught stealing) he would spend a few nights in jail I believe.

And they were caught and charged, along with an IDF soldier who looted one of the ships

These were not israeli lawmakers, but excuse me, being on the Gaza Floatilla, when it's passengers were armed

Allegedly.

and used their weapons against Israeli soldiers,

After Israeli soldiers illegally attacked and boarded the ships.

and being the same time on the Israeli parliament? it's called being a traitor.

Actually it's called exercising the right to protest and free association.

The Facebook group calling her execution? well there are such groups everywhere, especially in your 'reasonable' Gaza and it's allied states.

Except I never called Gaza reasonable.

[Disserbia]

I think there is.

If you let Israel continue, worst you get is settlers and fences. Let Iran take over, and we'll be dealing with another holocaust.

If you let Israel continue, then worst you get is hundreds of people being brutally driven out of their homes by armed men, tanks, bulldozers, and rockets. Those that refuse will either be shot to death or walled in and starved to death; when NPOs try to give them food, medicine, education, water, and other necessities they will be turned around. Let Palestine continue, the worst you get is a brutal recurring series of terrorist strikes led by extremist Muslims, resulting in mass carnage.

Recurring terrorist attacks? When was the last time a Palestinian terrorist attack in Israeli soil happened? Come on people at least be fair.

[Ruridova]

If you let Israel continue, then worst you get is hundreds of people being brutally driven out of their homes by armed men, tanks, bulldozers, and rockets. Those that refuse will either be shot to death or walled in and starved to death; when NPOs try to give them food, medicine, education, water, and other necessities they will be turned around. Let Palestine continue, the worst you get is a brutal recurring series of terrorist strikes led by extremist Muslims, resulting in mass carnage.

Recurring terrorist attacks? When was the last time a Palestinian terrorist attack in Israeli soil happened? Come on people at least be fair.

Sorry, but I can't say that either side has moral high ground. That was the point of the post.

[Disserbia]

Recurring terrorist attacks? When was the last time a Palestinian terrorist attack in Israeli soil happened? Come on people at least be fair.

Sorry, but I can't say that either side has moral high ground. That was the point of the post.

The last terrorist attack by Palestinians was in 2008, while I agree with you, don't accuse them of undertaking something which they are no longer doing. That was my point.

[Ruridova]

Sorry, but I can't say that either side has moral high ground. That was the point of the post.

The last terrorist attack by Palestinians was in 2008, while I agree with you, don't accuse them of undertaking something which they are no longer doing. That was my point.

Thank you for pointing that out.

[FPCCOS]

Unfortunately, Israel has influence over all major media in Europe and North America and so is able to create an image of itself as a humanitarian state founded on human rights, justice and human dignity. However, this is not the case. To be blunt, Israel was based on stealing land belonging to refugees who had fled terrorist groups like the Irgun and the Levi who were supported by the Zionist founders of Israel. Now can a state founded on terrorism really be against terrorism. The main argument for the establishment of the Israeli state was that the Jewish people didn't have a state of their own. So what, countless different peoples don't have a state that is solely composed of only their people yet I don't see many of these peoples waging a war of terror and injustice like Israel is.
For anyone who isn't convinced of the Israeli regime's racist nature should go and search on Google his many racist and inflammatory nature "we will not allow the Jewish nature of Israel to be compromised". Israel is a "Jewish" state.

Even to use the word "Israel" to describe the Zionist entity is a disgrace to the Honorable Prophet Jacob (Yaqub) whose name is now used to describe one of the world's most oppressive and evil governments.

Did not Muhammad invade Mecca? Did not Muhammad forcibly colonize? Did the Caliphates expand peacefully? If nothing else, the Israels kicked the living crap out of you people despite being outnumbered and outgunned. Three times they beat you like a parent beats a misbehaving child in a bunch of crappy third world countries. But did they march to Damascus, slaughtering along the way? Nope. DId they take the opportunity they had and level Mecca? Nope.

Oh, by the way, I'm sorry, but Muslims can't be trusted to keep their house in order with other religions.

Incidents like

This

have kind of taken that from you. And the killing of the Copts in Egypt.

How can you say Israel is one of the most oppressive. I can walk anywhere in Israel. They can't hide anything. I can't set FOOT in North Korea, or Iran. Remember those hikers? Palestinians can go in Israel all they want. Step 12 inches into the Iranian border and you're locked up for life.

This is one of the most absurd and slanderous accusations I have ever seen. The Prophet Muhammad attacked Mecca? You really need to do proper research by referring to the Islamic sources and Islamic scholars. Watching a CNN report about Islam, I am sorry to say does not qualify as an accurate and unbiased source of information about Islam, just like watching a video of Christian Neo-Nazis on YouTube doesn't qualify as real research on Christianity.

In fact, the conquest of Makkah was one of the biggest proofs of the Prophet Muhammad's humility, kindness and compassion and proof of the Qur'anic ayah (verse) that the Prophet Muhammad had been sent as a mercy to mankind. The people of Makkah had tortured him and his followers (the early Muslims), stolen their land and property, drove them out of their homes and made them starve in the desert, blockaded them for 3 years so that no Arab tribe would trade with them. The non-Muslims of Makkah had hated him, despised him and made his life a living hell to the point that people would lay thorns in his path. What do think he would do when he had the people of Makkah at his mercy.

At first, some of the people of Makkah tried to defend the Muslims by setting up camp at a nearby hill. However, they soon gave up without even confronting the Muslims when they show the sheer force of the Muslim army. So they fled, rushing to take refuge in their homes.

The Prophet (pbuh) wanted to conquer Makkah in a peaceful way with no or very little conflict. For this to be possible he decided that the disbelievers of Makkah have to be aware of what they would be facing. So on the way to Makkah, while camping at Marr az-Zahran (which could be seen from Makkah), Muhammad (pbuh) asked his soldiers to light fires for the purposes of cooking. So this gave the impression of a massive army on its way to the people of Makkah. By doing this, Muhammad (pbuh) gave his enemies in Makkah time to measure the situation properly so they should not be surprised and endanger themselves and their women and children blindly by jumping into battle. The Prophet (pbuh) saw it unfit to take them by surprise. He commanded that “no conflict or battle can take place on that day” and he named it ‘the day of mercy’.

While entering Makkah the Prophet (pbuh) made sure to request that the non-Muslims or former enemies of the Muslims be shown kindness, they should not be harmed. And he went on to perform an act of Salah (prayer), after which he took a few moments to rest. He then made his way to the Kaba sanctuary, where he performed seven rounds of circumambulation after destroying the idols within or surrounding the sacred building, while repeating a passage from the Qur’an, “Truth has come, and falsehood has departed. Indeed is falsehood (by nature), ever bound to depart”[3][4]. And so he had the keys of the Kaba bought to him[5] and required that all religious images be permanently rid of, to reconcile the house of the Creator back to true monotheism; which was taught by the all Knowing to Abraham, Moses, Jesus and all the other prophets before them, peace be with them all. It was a reclaiming of its first and rightful identity, a sign of the oneness and domination of Allah.
After Muhammad’s (pbuh) act of ridding the idols and exclaiming the glory and oneness of the Creator, the people of Quraysh started to leave their houses and gather in front of the Kaba and Muhammad (pbuh), waiting to hear him talk to them. He started off by teaching them about Islam and that God all Mighty saw it fit to do away with their pride and arrogance of the pre-Islamic era, because all are descended from Adam (pbuh) and he is from dust. And he quoted from the Qur’an, “O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other (not that ye may despise (each other). Verily the most honoured of you in the sight of Allah is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And Allah has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things)”[6], thus teaching the sacredness of human life.
He asked the people of Quraysh how they thought he was going to deal with them, now that he had easy charge over Makkah. They replied “as a noble brother” that they expected nothing but goodness from him and he would deal with them kindly. The Prophet (pbuh) spoke telling them “I speak to you in the same words of the prophet Yusuf (Joseph) peace be with him, who spoke to his brothers” and Muhammad (pbuh) recited a passage from a chapter of the Qur’an relating to the story of Yusuf (pbuh): “No blame will there be upon you today. Allah will forgive you; and He is the most merciful of the merciful”[7]. Then he announced to them that they are free now and they may go where they please. And like this the Prophet (pbuh) granted his forgiveness to his former enemies, those who wanted to destroy his belief, his reputation, his life and his associates not long ago. He forgave them all men and women that came to him or his companions. So here we see his mercy for mankind, which Muslims can only describe as a gift from the Giver of all things.

Muhammad (pbuh) even forgave such people like Wahshi ibn Harb. Wahshi ibn Harb was the one who was responsible for killing Hamzah ibn Abdul-Muttalib, beloved uncle of the Prophet (pbuh), during the battle of Uhud. He killed him on the order of enemy Hind bint Utbah wife of Abu Sufyan, to become a free man. The Prophet (pbuh) requested that Wahshi should keep clear of his presence in the future; as his presence may remind the Messenger (pbuh) memories of his uncle, or that Muhammad (pbuh) didn’t want Wahshi to interpret a look on his face as a look of anger towards him.

Many Muslims who were former enemies of Muhammad (pbuh) before conquering Makkah now approached him for help and support and forgiveness, including Ikrimah son of Abu Jahl. Abu Jahl was known for his hostility against Muhammad (pbuh) and his companions, and was killed during the battle of Badr. The Prophet (pbuh) made sure to remind his companions that Ikrimah was now coming as a believer, none should insult his farther, and he said “for insulting the dead hurts the living without reaching the dead”. This teaches not only to forgive but to remember that none can be responsible of the crimes of others, not even be it their father’s. As he taught from the Qur’an, “No bearer of burdens can bear the burden of another”[9]. One must be judged purely on his actions and deeds, not according to his lineage.


So what do you think now? The Prophet SAW is still a bloodthirsty murderer? I know for a fact that if you and many other people were to suffer what the Prophet Muhammad SAW suffered, they would take revenge. So don't you dare insult the greatest man who ever lived on the face of the Earth and who is recognized by people of all faiths to have been amongst the world's greatest people. Mahatma Gandhi was a non-violent activist, you know that right. Would Mahatma Gandhi endorse a bloodthirsty tyrant?

This is what Mahatma Gandhi said about the Prophet Muhammad:


Mahatma Gandhi, statement published in “Young India”, 1924:

“I wanted to know the best of the life of one who holds today an undisputed sway over the hearts of millions of mankind… I became more than ever convinced that it was not the sword that won a place for Islam in those days in the scheme of life. It was the rigid simplicity, the utter self-effacement of the Prophet the scrupulous regard for pledges, his intense devotion to his friends and followers, his intrepidity, his fearlessness, his absolute trust in God and in his own mission. These and not the sword carried everything before them and surmounted every obstacle. When I closed the second volume (of the Prophet’s biography), I was sorry there was not more for me to read of that great life.”

Evraim... you may call me Muhammad instead of FPCCOS if you wish and I'm not insulted by your question. Its a perfectly reasonable question.

As for the other posters who make repeated references to Syria and Iran... to study a religion you look at its texts. You do not surf the internet for any random atrocity that just happens to have occurred in a Muslim country. And for the last time, Iran is mostly shia and follow Shiaism which is different from Islam, so don't say Islam is responsible for their actions. Syria is ruled by Shias and the military is run by Shias so don't attribute the atrocities committed by the tyrant Bashar Al Assad to Islam, please.

Yes, you are right to say that the Israelis were outnumbered and outgunned, however you must remember they had the support of the US and had spies infiltrate the armies of the Arab armies and so this helped them to win.

[Ikhlaqistan]

Did not Muhammad invade Mecca? Did not Muhammad forcibly colonize? Did the Caliphates expand peacefully? If nothing else, the Israels kicked the living crap out of you people despite being outnumbered and outgunned. Three times they beat you like a parent beats a misbehaving child in a bunch of crappy third world countries. But did they march to Damascus, slaughtering along the way? Nope. DId they take the opportunity they had and level Mecca? Nope.

Oh, by the way, I'm sorry, but Muslims can't be trusted to keep their house in order with other religions.

Incidents like

This

have kind of taken that from you. And the killing of the Copts in Egypt.

How can you say Israel is one of the most oppressive. I can walk anywhere in Israel. They can't hide anything. I can't set FOOT in North Korea, or Iran. Remember those hikers? Palestinians can go in Israel all they want. Step 12 inches into the Iranian border and you're locked up for life.

This is one of the most absurd and slanderous accusations I have ever seen. The Prophet Muhammad attacked Mecca. You really need to do proper research by referring to the Islamic sources and Islamic scholars. Watching a CNN report about Islam, I am sorry to say does not qualify as an accurate and unbiased source of information about Islam, just like watching a video of Christian Neo-Nazis on YouTube doesn't qualify as real research on Islam.

In fact, the conquest of Makkah was one of the biggest proofs of the Prophet Muhammad's humility, kindness and compassion and proof of the Qur'anic ayah (verse) that the Prophet Muhammad had been sent as a mercy to mankind. The people of Makkah had tortured him and his followers (the early Muslims), stolen their land and property, drove them out of their homes and made them starve in the desert, blockaded them for 3 years so that no Arab tribe would trade with them. The non-Muslims of Makkah had hated him, despised him and made his life a living hell to the point that people would lay thorns in his path. What do think he would do when he had the people of Makkah at his mercy.

At first, some of the people of Makkah tried to defend the Muslims by setting up camp at a nearby hill. However, they soon gave up without even confronting the Muslims when they show the sheer force of the Muslim army. So they fled, rushing to take refuge in their homes.

The Prophet (pbuh) wanted to conquer Makkah in a peaceful way with no or very little conflict. For this to be possible he decided that the disbelievers of Makkah have to be aware of what they would be facing. So on the way to Makkah, while camping at Marr az-Zahran (which could be seen from Makkah), Muhammad (pbuh) asked his soldiers to light fires for the purposes of cooking. So this gave the impression of a massive army on its way to the people of Makkah. By doing this, Muhammad (pbuh) gave his enemies in Makkah time to measure the situation properly so they should not be surprised and endanger themselves and their women and children blindly by jumping into battle. The Prophet (pbuh) saw it unfit to take them by surprise. He commanded that “no conflict or battle can take place on that day” and he named it ‘the day of mercy’.

While entering Makkah the Prophet (pbuh) made sure to request that the non-Muslims or former enemies of the Muslims be shown kindness, they should not be harmed. And he went on to perform an act of Salah (prayer), after which he took a few moments to rest. He then made his way to the Kaba sanctuary, where he performed seven rounds of circumambulation after destroying the idols within or surrounding the sacred building, while repeating a passage from the Qur’an, “Truth has come, and falsehood has departed. Indeed is falsehood (by nature), ever bound to depart”[3][4]. And so he had the keys of the Kaba bought to him[5] and required that all religious images be permanently rid of, to reconcile the house of the Creator back to true monotheism; which was taught by the all Knowing to Abraham, Moses, Jesus and all the other prophets before them, peace be with them all. It was a reclaiming of its first and rightful identity, a sign of the oneness and domination of Allah.
After Muhammad’s (pbuh) act of ridding the idols and exclaiming the glory and oneness of the Creator, the people of Quraysh started to leave their houses and gather in front of the Kaba and Muhammad (pbuh), waiting to hear him talk to them. He started off by teaching them about Islam and that God all Mighty saw it fit to do away with their pride and arrogance of the pre-Islamic era, because all are descended from Adam (pbuh) and he is from dust. And he quoted from the Qur’an, “O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other (not that ye may despise (each other). Verily the most honoured of you in the sight of Allah is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And Allah has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things)”[6], thus teaching the sacredness of human life.
He asked the people of Quraysh how they thought he was going to deal with them, now that he had easy charge over Makkah. They replied “as a noble brother” that they expected nothing but goodness from him and he would deal with them kindly. The Prophet (pbuh) spoke telling them “I speak to you in the same words of the prophet Yusuf (Joseph) peace be with him, who spoke to his brothers” and Muhammad (pbuh) recited a passage from a chapter of the Qur’an relating to the story of Yusuf (pbuh): “No blame will there be upon you today. Allah will forgive you; and He is the most merciful of the merciful”[7]. Then he announced to them that they are free now and they may go where they please. And like this the Prophet (pbuh) granted his forgiveness to his former enemies, those who wanted to destroy his belief, his reputation, his life and his associates not long ago. He forgave them all men and women that came to him or his companions. So here we see his mercy for mankind, which Muslims can only describe as a gift from the Giver of all things.

Muhammad (pbuh) even forgave such people like Wahshi ibn Harb. Wahshi ibn Harb was the one who was responsible for killing Hamzah ibn Abdul-Muttalib, beloved uncle of the Prophet (pbuh), during the battle of Uhud. He killed him on the order of enemy Hind bint Utbah wife of Abu Sufyan, to become a free man. The Prophet (pbuh) requested that Wahshi should keep clear of his presence in the future; as his presence may remind the Messenger (pbuh) memories of his uncle, or that Muhammad (pbuh) didn’t want Wahshi to interpret a look on his face as a look of anger towards him.

Many Muslims who were former enemies of Muhammad (pbuh) before conquering Makkah now approached him for help and support and forgiveness, including Ikrimah son of Abu Jahl. Abu Jahl was known for his hostility against Muhammad (pbuh) and his companions, and was killed during the battle of Badr. The Prophet (pbuh) made sure to remind his companions that Ikrimah was now coming as a believer, none should insult his farther, and he said “for insulting the dead hurts the living without reaching the dead”. This teaches not only to forgive but to remember that none can be responsible of the crimes of others, not even be it their father’s. As he taught from the Qur’an, “No bearer of burdens can bear the burden of another”[9]. One must be judged purely on his actions and deeds, not according to his lineage.


So what do you think now? The Prophet SAW is still a bloodthirsty murderer? I know for a fact that if you and many other people were to suffer what the Prophet Muhammad SAW suffered, they would take revenge. So don't you dare insult the greatest man who ever lived on the face of the Earth and who is recognized by people of all faiths to have been amongst the world's greatest people. Mahatma Gandhi was a non-violent activist, you know that right. Would Mahatma Gandhi endorse a bloodthirsty tyrant?

This is what Mahatma Gandhi said about the Prophet Muhammad:


Mahatma Gandhi, statement published in “Young India”, 1924:

“I wanted to know the best of the life of one who holds today an undisputed sway over the hearts of millions of mankind… I became more than ever convinced that it was not the sword that won a place for Islam in those days in the scheme of life. It was the rigid simplicity, the utter self-effacement of the Prophet the scrupulous regard for pledges, his intense devotion to his friends and followers, his intrepidity, his fearlessness, his absolute trust in God and in his own mission. These and not the sword carried everything before them and surmounted every obstacle. When I closed the second volume (of the Prophet’s biography), I was sorry there was not more for me to read of that great life.”

Evraim... you may call me Muhammad instead of FPCCOS if you wish and I'm not insulted by your question. Its a perfectly reasonable question.

As for the other posters who make repeated references to Syria and Iran... to study a religion you look at its texts. You do not surf the internet for any random atrocity that just happens to have occurred in a Muslim country. And for the last time, Iran is mostly shia and follow Shiaism which is different from Islam, so don't say Islam is responsible for their actions. Syria is ruled by Shias and the military is run by Shias so don't attribute the atrocities committed by the tyrant Bashar Al Assad to Islam, please.

Yes, you are right to say that the Israelis were outnumbered and outgunned, however you must remember they had the support of the US and had spies infiltrate the armies of the Arab armies and so this helped them to win.

Marshallah brother.

[New Duck]

Israel deserves that land! They conquered it fair and square! Also there was never a Palestinian state, the people who were there before Israel considered themselves to be Syrian

[Ruridova]

Israel deserves that land! They conquered it fair and square! Also there was never a Palestinian state, the people who were there before Israel considered themselves to be Syrian

Conquering land and then killing large numbers of natives is a poor reason. Getting the UN to give you land is a good one. Taking the UN land and then conquering and killing gets rid of your moral high ground. The "killing" thing is also how Palestine lost its moral high ground. Currently I see no moral high ground and thus think that both should be independent states forced to deal with only controlling what they were given in the 1960s(Palestrine controls Gaza Strip and West Bank, Israel get Israel, Syria gets Golan Heights) and each other.


Also, even the ones who lived closer to Jordan and Egypt and called the land Palestine and themselves Palestinian?

[Salvarity]

Israel deserves that land!

No they don't

They conquered it fair and square!

War is never fair

Also there was never a Palestinian state, the people who were there before Israel considered themselves to be Syrian

Source