Israel vs. Palestine

[Costa Fiero]

How do you explain oppression of the Zionist settler colonist state toward the Palestinian Arabs? Pray tell.

Conversely, how do you explain the oppression of the Arab states on the Palestinians who reside in nations outside of the Occupied Territories? If said countries support the Palestinian cause, why oppress them?

[FPCCOS]

I actually support a one unitary state for all of Palestine. And the same thing you suggest was in force for several hundred years until the Caliphate broke apart.

Nonsense!!!

But seriously it was. The Caliphate ruled all of the Arabian Peninsula, most of central Asia and North Africa for several countries and during this time, the Muslims and Jews lived in peace. Haven't you heard the story of Caliph Ali and the Jew? It goes to show just how just the Muslims were. It goes like this. Caliph Ali had gone to battle and a Jewish man who had followed behind the army stole a shield from Ali when he dropped it, so he (Ali) took the matter to court and brought his son as a witness. The judge ruled against Ali even though he was the head of state (Caliph), stating that a son cannot be a witness for a father in court. When the Jew witnessed such fairness he voluntarily confessed that he stole the shield and embraced Islam.

[Napkiraly]

So in other words, you agree that the USSR would be morally justified in wiping out the American population if that situation had occurred. Got it.

I guarantee you this much......... if ANYONE had spent years lobbing rockets and mortars and artillery into the Soviet Union (USSR) by the thousands then their (the poor unfortunate souls who thought it a good idea to do such a thing) asses would have been ground into hamburger meat by the treads of Soviet tanks, and the Soviets would have given that universally understood hand sign (the FINGER) to the world at large while they were doing it. Nobody fucked with the Russians precisely because the Red Army's one and only response is to kill you dead. People world wide knew that and respected that. Perhaps it is time to take a different course, one that no longer includes simply being a target for palestinian/arab hatred and weapons fire. Unilateral action is the only answer that will provide peace for Israel. Negotiation has failed, the "dis-engagement" plan is utterly ridiculous and impractical (as well as also being a failure), and completely annihilating the arabs/palestinians where they stand is inhumane and immoral so this leaves us with relocating them out of Israel proper. This means out of the West Bank and Gaza, as well as Jerusalem. Once the arabs/palestinians are removed from Israel the conflict will end and we will have peace, in our time. This is not simply "Spiritwolf's Lunacy" as some of you have characterized my proposal, it is also a Gauntlet thrown down in the face of all of you have made no effort whatsoever (or lacked the balls to do so) to field a plan/proposal of your own that would find a humane means of ending this conflict. That's right, I'm talking to YOU. Ethnic relocation is humane and it will end the conflict. If IDF forces can move in and seize Jewish settlers and forcibly relocate them in the name of peace then I fail to see why the same cannot be done to arabs/palestinians, also in the name of peace.

So you agree then that they would be morally justified. Good, at least you aren't hypocritical.

[Danbershan]

As far as I'm concerned, things can go on as they are for a few years, because before long the Arabs are going to outnumber the Jews by millions. Demographics will solve the problem.

I'm sure this has been brought up before, but I didn't want to read through 85 pages.

[Socialist EU]

How do you explain oppression of the Zionist settler colonist state toward the Palestinian Arabs? Pray tell.

Conversely, how do you explain the oppression of the Arab states on the Palestinians who reside in nations outside of the Occupied Territories? If said countries support the Palestinian cause, why oppress them?

The ideas of the ruling class are the ruling ideas. And yes, you're correct to point out the Arab states role in oppression, and the oppressive role they play generally. It's also worth pointing out the most oppressive state in the region, Saudi Arabia and the Gulf states play a key part in oppressing uprisings in the region, (United Arab Emirates the most recent example). The Gulf states and the Saudi's imperialist role cannot be discounted, and they have an atrocious record when it comes to immigrant workers, which for obvious reasons, the taking away of passports ect, is used to prevent any fightback from the working class in these states. Of course, we could create another post on that subject itself.

[Socialist EU]

Nonsense!!!

But seriously it was. The Caliphate ruled all of the Arabian Peninsula, most of central Asia and North Africa for several countries and during this time, the Muslims and Jews lived in peace. Haven't you heard the story of Caliph Ali and the Jew? It goes to show just how just the Muslims were. It goes like this. Caliph Ali had gone to battle and a Jewish man who had followed behind the army stole a shield from Ali when he dropped it, so he (Ali) took the matter to court and brought his son as a witness. The judge ruled against Ali even though he was the head of state (Caliph), stating that a son cannot be a witness for a father in court. When the Jew witnessed such fairness he voluntarily confessed that he stole the shield and embraced Islam.

Do you even know what socialism is? Clearly not, hint, its not aristocratic power!

[FPCCOS]

But seriously it was. The Caliphate ruled all of the Arabian Peninsula, most of central Asia and North Africa for several countries and during this time, the Muslims and Jews lived in peace. Haven't you heard the story of Caliph Ali and the Jew? It goes to show just how just the Muslims were. It goes like this. Caliph Ali had gone to battle and a Jewish man who had followed behind the army stole a shield from Ali when he dropped it, so he (Ali) took the matter to court and brought his son as a witness. The judge ruled against Ali even though he was the head of state (Caliph), stating that a son cannot be a witness for a father in court. When the Jew witnessed such fairness he voluntarily confessed that he stole the shield and embraced Islam.

Do you even know what socialism is? Clearly not, hint, its not aristocratic power!

Actually, the early caliphate, which is what I'm referring to was not aristocratic. It was indirectly elected by the people through their representatives and then approved by the people who took an oath of allegiance to the chosen leader. In addition, the early caliphs instituted the world's first major welfare state, giving pensions and welfare to those who needed. The constitution of Medina was also the world's first constitution and clearly set out the guidelines for a religious government that ruled over a pluralistic society, granting rights and freedoms to Muslims and non-Muslims alike and setting out their responsibilities. Some resources were controlled and distributed by the state so as to protect the public interest. So actually, the early caliphate can be said to have had elements of socialism, if not being a pioneer of socialist values itself.

[Socialist EU]

Do you even know what socialism is? Clearly not, hint, its not aristocratic power!

Actually, the early caliphate, which is what I'm referring to was not aristocratic. It was indirectly elected by the people through their representatives and then approved by the people who took an oath of allegiance to the chosen leader. In addition, the early caliphs instituted the world's first major welfare state, giving pensions and welfare to those who needed. The constitution of Medina was also the world's first constitution and clearly set out the guidelines for a religious government that ruled over a pluralistic society, granting rights and freedoms to Muslims and non-Muslims alike and setting out their responsibilities. Some resources were controlled and distributed by the state so as to protect the public interest. So actually, the early caliphate can be said to have had elements of socialism, if not being a pioneer of socialist values itself.

Oath of allegiance to the chosen leader! Oh, doesn't that sound lovely and democratic. Religious government, F that! Elements of petty-bourgeois charity is not socialist nor is does it constitute working class independence. Elements of socialism indeed.

[Tmutarakhan]

Palestinians did, actually, steal all the land from the indigenous people, but never mind.

What are you talking about? The Palestinians are the product of all the peoples that have been living in that land, however they are now Arab due to Arab immigration to Palestine. I don't know about you, but I don't recall Palestinians being smuggled into Palestine, forcing the indigenous people out and then making their own state to justify their land claim.

The Pelast invaded from the Aegean, sometime shortly after the Exodus. The present Palestinians are a mixture of them and the Arab invaders, who were of course also not indigenous. The indigenous people were mostly slaughtered, except insofar as they are intermarried into both Jews and Palestinians; but even to the extent that there was genetic survival, as a culturally coherent ethnic group certainly the Canaanites were obliterated, both by the Palestinian ethnic group and by the Jewish. Nobody, anywhere, is "indigenous" except perhaps the south Nilotic peoples who live around the Great Rift valley where the species started; it is possible that they have never migrated at all; but in the case of every other country, the people who live there now do so because they violently displaced somebody else, it's just a question of when.

[Harimaupore]

I'm no expert, but from what I've read about the history of Israel, there isn't a single fathomable reason to consider supporting them. As an atheist, I don't understand their claim to conquest and I certainly don't support ousting peoples from their land, just because of some prophetic nonsense. But in the defence of both tolerance and being nice, I am going to try and understand why this poll suggests Israel deserves to beat Palestine in general.

Alright so I've had a think, what I remembered was this: I'm from the U.K. and we're a power-hungry nation (we always have been). There was a request by several key Jewish advocates, such as David Ben-Gurion, to create the Jewish nation. Now here's what I see as a problem and why I personally support Palestine: this was a Jewish decision, backed by us (those in G.B. who chickened out of the country of Palestine) because of our complete lack of interest in having to stand between two bickering parties. Jewish influence won over our aristocratic regime, thus today we have Israel (money was no doubt greatly in favour of them, not to mention to emotional debt our leaders racked-up during WW2).

That sounds pretty unfavourable to me, when taking into account the Arabic community that was ousted; not to mention the complete lack of regard for national sovereignty.

Free the people of Palestine.

[Nazi States of Europe]

Free the people of Palestine.

"There were no such thing as Palestinians. When was there an independent Palestinian people with a Palestinian state? It was either southern Syria before the First World War, and then it was a Palestine including Jordan. It was not as though there was a Palestinian people in Palestine considering itself as a Palestinian people and we came and threw them out and took their country away from them. They did not exist."

Golda Meir

[Noobubersland]

I'm no expert, but from what I've read about the history of Israel, there isn't a single fathomable reason to consider supporting them. As an atheist, I don't understand their claim to conquest and I certainly don't support ousting peoples from their land, just because of some prophetic nonsense. But in the defence of both tolerance and being nice, I am going to try and understand why this poll suggests Israel deserves to beat Palestine in general.

Alright so I've had a think, what I remembered was this: I'm from the U.K. and we're a power-hungry nation (we always have been). There was a request by several key Jewish advocates, such as David Ben-Gurion, to create the Jewish nation. Now here's what I see as a problem and why I personally support Palestine: this was a Jewish decision, backed by us (those in G.B. who chickened out of the country of Palestine) because of our complete lack of interest in having to stand between two bickering parties. Jewish influence won over our aristocratic regime, thus today we have Israel (money was no doubt greatly in favour of them, not to mention to emotional debt our leaders racked-up during WW2).

That sounds pretty unfavourable to me, when taking into account the Arabic community that was ousted; not to mention the complete lack of regard for national sovereignty.

Free the people of Palestine.

Chicknd out of givin them a state? They refused statehood

[The UK in Exile]

Free the people of Palestine.

"There were no such thing as Palestinians. When was there an independent Palestinian people with a Palestinian state? It was either southern Syria before the First World War, and then it was a Palestine including Jordan. It was not as though there was a Palestinian people in Palestine considering itself as a Palestinian people and we came and threw them out and took their country away from them. They did not exist."

Golda Meir

because really, when you want an unbiased perspective, Golda Meir - Hammer of the Hebron, is who springs to mind.

[Disco Volante]

Palestine. Israel is a terror to that region. Excuse my bluntness.

[Noobubersland]

Palestine. Israel is a terror to that region. Excuse my bluntness.

I would say the people who use their children as a weapon would be worse...

[North Calaveras]

Palestine. Israel is a terror to that region. Excuse my bluntness.

Israel is a terror?

yeah cause Palestinians voting in Hamas and shouting about how great it will be when the Jews are driven into the sea, the people who have children shows that are down right disturbing, the people who go to other countrys just to blow up a bus full of Israelis, the people who strap bombs to themselves and purposefully target innocent men/women and children just for being jewish

yeah...israel is the true terror...

[Nazi States of Europe]

"There were no such thing as Palestinians. When was there an independent Palestinian people with a Palestinian state? It was either southern Syria before the First World War, and then it was a Palestine including Jordan. It was not as though there was a Palestinian people in Palestine considering itself as a Palestinian people and we came and threw them out and took their country away from them. They did not exist."

Golda Meir

because really, when you want an unbiased perspective, Golda Meir - Hammer of the Hebron, is who springs to mind.

Who said anything about unbiased?

[Khelaafa]

Palestine (yes, of course)
However, because I see impossible for Palestine to get all of their land again, I more likely for two-state solution.

[Disserbia]

How do you explain oppression of the Zionist settler colonist state toward the Palestinian Arabs? Pray tell.

Conversely, how do you explain the oppression of the Arab states on the Palestinians who reside in nations outside of the Occupied Territories? If said countries support the Palestinian cause, why oppress them?

Because they support the Palestinians having a homeland in Palestine, not Jordan or Lebanon. Plus how does that excuse the way Israel is oppressing Palestinian Arabs...oh riiiiiight, it doesn't.

[Disco Volante]

Palestine. Israel is a terror to that region. Excuse my bluntness.

I would say the people who use their children as a weapon would be worse...

Must be israel's excuse for targeting them so often then.

[Disserbia]

Palestine. Israel is a terror to that region. Excuse my bluntness.

I would say the people who use their children as a weapon would be worse...

Yeah but seeing as this conversation has nothing to do with the LRA, your post is completely irrelevant.

[Virana]

Palestinians are not the ones who stole the lands of the indigenous people

Palestinians did, actually, steal all the land from the indigenous people, but never mind.

And of course, so did the Europeans when they came to the Americas. Should we oust all the modern Americans to set up a holy land for Amerindians?

[The UK in Exile]

because really, when you want an unbiased perspective, Golda Meir - Hammer of the Hebron, is who springs to mind.

Who said anything about unbiased?

good point.

"Years ago, I created a mighty lie: an almost demonic creature of violence and vengeance; a night-beast whose very presence would strike fear into the criminal heart. But the lie was born to serve the greater good. The lie protected the innocent, the forsaken. The lie serves justice."

Batman

[Jafas United]

I would say the people who use their children as a weapon would be worse...

Yeah but seeing as this conversation has nothing to do with the LRA, your post is completely irrelevant.

I would say the people who use their children as a weapon would be worse...

Must be israel's excuse for targeting them so often then.

Facts are stupid things.

[Disco Volante]

Yeah but seeing as this conversation has nothing to do with the LRA, your post is completely irrelevant.

Must be israel's excuse for targeting them so often then.

Facts are stupid things.

Hard to take truthfully, considering the source...