NATION

PASSWORD

Christian disscussion thread

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

Advertisement

Remove ads

You are a?

Catholic
215
29%
Mormon
16
2%
Orthodox
52
7%
Baptist
79
11%
Evangelical
38
5%
Presbyterian
24
3%
Lutheran
50
7%
Episcopal
23
3%
Society Of Friends (Quaker)
19
3%
Other(Other denomination, not other religion, only other Christian denominations)
216
30%
 
Total votes : 732

User avatar
Orcoa
Senator
 
Posts: 4455
Founded: Jul 05, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby Orcoa » Sun Dec 09, 2012 8:50 pm

Seperates wrote:
The walkers wrote:
Well, I hope none of us here are implying that Christianity is the source for the hatred towards homosexuals in the world. It has certainly been used as a defense for the hatred of it before.

Nope. It just appears, along with Islam, to be one of the largest vehicles that hatred towards homosexuals takes the form of.

To me it only shows why I have little faith in humanity these days.

People taking something beautiful, sacred, and holy and corrupting it with their human evils >:(
Long Live The Wolf Emperor!
This is the song I sing to those who screw with me XD

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uXnFhnpEgKY
"this is the Internet: The place where religion goes to die." Crystalcliff Point

User avatar
Orcoa
Senator
 
Posts: 4455
Founded: Jul 05, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby Orcoa » Sun Dec 09, 2012 8:51 pm

Seperates wrote:
Menassa wrote:I didn't see you mention Jews there.... +5 points for us!

I would have said Jews, but you guys have gotten more liberal as of late.

And most likely Christianity and even Islam will do so as well. It takes time, hard work, and bit of hope to do this.

Hopefully in a hundred years or so things will be different...one can hope
Long Live The Wolf Emperor!
This is the song I sing to those who screw with me XD

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uXnFhnpEgKY
"this is the Internet: The place where religion goes to die." Crystalcliff Point

User avatar
Seperates
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 14622
Founded: Sep 03, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby Seperates » Sun Dec 09, 2012 8:52 pm

Orcoa wrote:
Seperates wrote:Nope. It just appears, along with Islam, to be one of the largest vehicles that hatred towards homosexuals takes the form of.

To me it only shows why I have little faith in humanity these days.

People taking something beautiful, sacred, and holy and corrupting it with their human evils >:(

Not really. It just shows that it's just a book. An idea on paper. Not holy, not beautiful, not sacred.

If it were really God's word... it would be incorruptable.
This Debate is simply an exercise in Rhetoric. Truth is a fickle being with no intentions of showing itself today.

Non fui, fui, non sum, non curo

"The most important fact about us: that we are greater than the institutions and cultures we build."--Roberto Mangabeira Unger

User avatar
Seperates
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 14622
Founded: Sep 03, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby Seperates » Sun Dec 09, 2012 8:52 pm

Orcoa wrote:
Seperates wrote:I would have said Jews, but you guys have gotten more liberal as of late.

And most likely Christianity and even Islam will do so as well. It takes time, hard work, and bit of hope to do this.

Hopefully in a hundred years or so things will be different...one can hope

Or else they will slowly be put to the wayside like the Greek mythos...

One can hope.
This Debate is simply an exercise in Rhetoric. Truth is a fickle being with no intentions of showing itself today.

Non fui, fui, non sum, non curo

"The most important fact about us: that we are greater than the institutions and cultures we build."--Roberto Mangabeira Unger

User avatar
Menassa
Post Czar
 
Posts: 33837
Founded: Aug 11, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Menassa » Sun Dec 09, 2012 8:53 pm

Seperates wrote:
Menassa wrote:I didn't see you mention Jews there.... +5 points for us!

I would have said Jews, but you guys have gotten more liberal as of late.

As of late?

I don't believe Homosexual's should be persecuted... the Laws found in Leviticus don't apply to them... only the Jewish Homosexuals... for which there is no earthly punishment.
Last edited by Menassa on Sun Dec 09, 2012 8:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Radical Monotheist
Their hollow inheritance.
This is my god and I shall exalt him
Jewish Discussion Thread בְּ
"A missionary uses the Bible like a drunk uses a lamppost, not so much for illumination, but for support"
"Imagine of a bunch of Zulu tribesmen told Congress how to read the Constitution, that's how it feels to a Jew when you tell us how to read our bible"
"God said: you must teach, as I taught, without a fee."
"Against your will you are formed, against your will you are born, against your will you live, against your will you die, and against your will you are destined to give a judgement and accounting before the king, king of all kings..."

User avatar
Orcoa
Senator
 
Posts: 4455
Founded: Jul 05, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby Orcoa » Sun Dec 09, 2012 8:53 pm

Seperates wrote:
Orcoa wrote:To me it only shows why I have little faith in humanity these days.

People taking something beautiful, sacred, and holy and corrupting it with their human evils >:(

Not really. It just shows that it's just a book. An idea on paper. Not holy, not beautiful, not sacred.

If it were really God's word... it would be incorruptible.

Nothing is incorruptible....and that is why I have little faith in humanity
Long Live The Wolf Emperor!
This is the song I sing to those who screw with me XD

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uXnFhnpEgKY
"this is the Internet: The place where religion goes to die." Crystalcliff Point

User avatar
Seperates
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 14622
Founded: Sep 03, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby Seperates » Sun Dec 09, 2012 8:54 pm

Menassa wrote:
Seperates wrote:I would have said Jews, but you guys have gotten more liberal as of late.

As of late?

I don't believe Homosexual's should be persecuted... the Laws found in Leviticus don't apply to them... only the Jewish Homosexuals... for which there is no earthly punishment.

I guess.
This Debate is simply an exercise in Rhetoric. Truth is a fickle being with no intentions of showing itself today.

Non fui, fui, non sum, non curo

"The most important fact about us: that we are greater than the institutions and cultures we build."--Roberto Mangabeira Unger

User avatar
Seperates
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 14622
Founded: Sep 03, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby Seperates » Sun Dec 09, 2012 8:54 pm

Orcoa wrote:
Seperates wrote:Not really. It just shows that it's just a book. An idea on paper. Not holy, not beautiful, not sacred.

If it were really God's word... it would be incorruptible.

Nothing is incorruptible....and that is why I have little faith in humanity

Shame. God's rather mundane then...
Which is why I have little faith.
Last edited by Seperates on Sun Dec 09, 2012 8:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
This Debate is simply an exercise in Rhetoric. Truth is a fickle being with no intentions of showing itself today.

Non fui, fui, non sum, non curo

"The most important fact about us: that we are greater than the institutions and cultures we build."--Roberto Mangabeira Unger

User avatar
Vazdania
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 19448
Founded: Mar 06, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Vazdania » Sun Dec 09, 2012 8:55 pm

Menassa wrote:
Seperates wrote:I would have said Jews, but you guys have gotten more liberal as of late.

As of late?

I don't believe Homosexual's should be persecuted... the Laws found in Leviticus don't apply to them... only the Jewish Homosexuals... for which there is no earthly punishment.

So Gentiles can be homosexual then?
NSG's Resident Constitutional Executive Monarchist!
We Monarchists Stand With The Morals Of The Past, As We Hatch Impossible Treasons Against The Present.

They Have No Voice; So I will Speak For Them. The Right To Life Is Fundamental To All Humans Regardless Of How Developed They Are. Pro-Woman. Pro-Child. Pro-Life.

NSG's Newest Vegetarian!

User avatar
Orcoa
Senator
 
Posts: 4455
Founded: Jul 05, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby Orcoa » Sun Dec 09, 2012 8:55 pm

Seperates wrote:
Orcoa wrote:And most likely Christianity and even Islam will do so as well. It takes time, hard work, and bit of hope to do this.

Hopefully in a hundred years or so things will be different...one can hope

Or else they will slowly be put to the wayside like the Greek mythos...

One can hope.

Indeed
Long Live The Wolf Emperor!
This is the song I sing to those who screw with me XD

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uXnFhnpEgKY
"this is the Internet: The place where religion goes to die." Crystalcliff Point

User avatar
Menassa
Post Czar
 
Posts: 33837
Founded: Aug 11, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Menassa » Sun Dec 09, 2012 8:56 pm

Vazdania wrote:
Menassa wrote:As of late?

I don't believe Homosexual's should be persecuted... the Laws found in Leviticus don't apply to them... only the Jewish Homosexuals... for which there is no earthly punishment.

So Gentiles can be homosexual then?

Not entirely... one of the Laws commands against Sexual immorality.... there are essentially two opinions... one holds it means any Airvah described in the Torah... the other holds it means only with married women.
Radical Monotheist
Their hollow inheritance.
This is my god and I shall exalt him
Jewish Discussion Thread בְּ
"A missionary uses the Bible like a drunk uses a lamppost, not so much for illumination, but for support"
"Imagine of a bunch of Zulu tribesmen told Congress how to read the Constitution, that's how it feels to a Jew when you tell us how to read our bible"
"God said: you must teach, as I taught, without a fee."
"Against your will you are formed, against your will you are born, against your will you live, against your will you die, and against your will you are destined to give a judgement and accounting before the king, king of all kings..."

User avatar
The walkers
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 192
Founded: Nov 03, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby The walkers » Sun Dec 09, 2012 8:58 pm

Seperates wrote:
The walkers wrote:
Well, I hope none of us here are implying that Christianity is the source for the hatred towards homosexuals in the world. It has certainly been used as a defense for the hatred of it before.

Nope. It just appears, along with Islam, to be one of the largest vehicles that hatred towards homosexuals takes the form of.

Well, I would argue human ignorance is the largest vehicle of hatred(although some on here would argue that religion is the result of human ignorance). Certainly in the Torah and Koran it makes clear that homosexuality needs to be punished physically, but the Bible itself argues that all Sins are equal, and that you should forgive others when they sin. This would include homosexuality.

That said I would again credit it more to human ignorance than the religion itself.(BTW I am not a professional on either the Torah or Koran)

User avatar
Vazdania
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 19448
Founded: Mar 06, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Vazdania » Sun Dec 09, 2012 8:58 pm

Menassa wrote:
Vazdania wrote:So Gentiles can be homosexual then?

Not entirely... one of the Laws commands against Sexual immorality.... there are essentially two opinions... one holds it means any Airvah described in the Torah... the other holds it means only with married women.

Your opinion is what/
NSG's Resident Constitutional Executive Monarchist!
We Monarchists Stand With The Morals Of The Past, As We Hatch Impossible Treasons Against The Present.

They Have No Voice; So I will Speak For Them. The Right To Life Is Fundamental To All Humans Regardless Of How Developed They Are. Pro-Woman. Pro-Child. Pro-Life.

NSG's Newest Vegetarian!

User avatar
Menassa
Post Czar
 
Posts: 33837
Founded: Aug 11, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Menassa » Sun Dec 09, 2012 9:00 pm

Vazdania wrote:
Menassa wrote:Not entirely... one of the Laws commands against Sexual immorality.... there are essentially two opinions... one holds it means any Airvah described in the Torah... the other holds it means only with married women.

Your opinion is what/

My personal opinion holds with the former... because the latter allows for non-Jews to have sexual relations with animals.... which is one of the world was destroyed for.

Do I think Homosexuals should be stoned according the Oral Law and that Homosexuality should be made illegal? No I do not think this.

If a person told me they were a Homosexual would I think any less of them? No I would not.
Radical Monotheist
Their hollow inheritance.
This is my god and I shall exalt him
Jewish Discussion Thread בְּ
"A missionary uses the Bible like a drunk uses a lamppost, not so much for illumination, but for support"
"Imagine of a bunch of Zulu tribesmen told Congress how to read the Constitution, that's how it feels to a Jew when you tell us how to read our bible"
"God said: you must teach, as I taught, without a fee."
"Against your will you are formed, against your will you are born, against your will you live, against your will you die, and against your will you are destined to give a judgement and accounting before the king, king of all kings..."

User avatar
Seperates
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 14622
Founded: Sep 03, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby Seperates » Sun Dec 09, 2012 9:03 pm

The walkers wrote:
Seperates wrote:Nope. It just appears, along with Islam, to be one of the largest vehicles that hatred towards homosexuals takes the form of.

Well, I would argue human ignorance is the largest vehicle of hatred(although some on here would argue that religion is the result of human ignorance). Certainly in the Torah and Koran it makes clear that homosexuality needs to be punished physically, but the Bible itself argues that all Sins are equal, and that you should forgive others when they sin. This would include homosexuality.

That said I would again credit it more to human ignorance than the religion itself.(BTW I am not a professional on either the Torah or Koran)

No... because other cultures have throughout history have tolerated and even accepted homosexuals. It's not even all religion persay as it is religion of the Abrahamic persuasion.
This Debate is simply an exercise in Rhetoric. Truth is a fickle being with no intentions of showing itself today.

Non fui, fui, non sum, non curo

"The most important fact about us: that we are greater than the institutions and cultures we build."--Roberto Mangabeira Unger

User avatar
Menassa
Post Czar
 
Posts: 33837
Founded: Aug 11, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Menassa » Sun Dec 09, 2012 9:04 pm

Seperates wrote:
The walkers wrote:Well, I would argue human ignorance is the largest vehicle of hatred(although some on here would argue that religion is the result of human ignorance). Certainly in the Torah and Koran it makes clear that homosexuality needs to be punished physically, but the Bible itself argues that all Sins are equal, and that you should forgive others when they sin. This would include homosexuality.

That said I would again credit it more to human ignorance than the religion itself.(BTW I am not a professional on either the Torah or Koran)

No... because other cultures have throughout history have tolerated and even accepted homosexuals. It's not even all religion persay as it is religion of the Abrahamic persuasion.

Which is probably why it spoken against so viciously.
Radical Monotheist
Their hollow inheritance.
This is my god and I shall exalt him
Jewish Discussion Thread בְּ
"A missionary uses the Bible like a drunk uses a lamppost, not so much for illumination, but for support"
"Imagine of a bunch of Zulu tribesmen told Congress how to read the Constitution, that's how it feels to a Jew when you tell us how to read our bible"
"God said: you must teach, as I taught, without a fee."
"Against your will you are formed, against your will you are born, against your will you live, against your will you die, and against your will you are destined to give a judgement and accounting before the king, king of all kings..."

User avatar
Bordurian
Minister
 
Posts: 3325
Founded: Mar 13, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Bordurian » Sun Dec 09, 2012 9:06 pm

Menassa wrote:
Vazdania wrote:Your opinion is what/

My personal opinion holds with the former... because the latter allows for non-Jews to have sexual relations with animals.... which is one of the world was destroyed for.

Do I think Homosexuals should be stoned according the Oral Law and that Homosexuality should be made illegal? No I do not think this.
If a person told me they were a Homosexual would I think any less of them? No I would not.

I believe that governments can preform those marriages. Just as long as they don't force it on a church. Based my understanding of the bible God isn't against being a homosexual. He's just against fulfilling homosexual needs.
Signed: Stefan III of Bordurian Grand Duke of Małapolska Duke of Bratislava Lord of Bohemia Baron of Zakopane, order of the Bear and of the Holy cross, His Holy Catholic Majesty Stefan III
Left -2.69
Authoritarian 3.45
[/floatleft]
Winners of the Free South Califas Roller Hockey Tournament
Participant in the 61st cup of Harmony,the 48th Baptisim of
Fire, the 19th Rugby Union world cup and World Cup 62
History, Geography, Reading, European
holidays, running, soccer, golf and Badminton

User avatar
Bordurian
Minister
 
Posts: 3325
Founded: Mar 13, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Bordurian » Sun Dec 09, 2012 9:06 pm

Menassa wrote:
Vazdania wrote:Your opinion is what/

My personal opinion holds with the former... because the latter allows for non-Jews to have sexual relations with animals.... which is one of the world was destroyed for.

Do I think Homosexuals should be stoned according the Oral Law and that Homosexuality should be made illegal? No I do not think this.
If a person told me they were a Homosexual would I think any less of them? No I would not.

I believe that governments can preform those marriages. Just as long as they don't force it on a church. Based my understanding of the bible God isn't against being a homosexual. He's just against fulfilling homosexual needs.
Signed: Stefan III of Bordurian Grand Duke of Małapolska Duke of Bratislava Lord of Bohemia Baron of Zakopane, order of the Bear and of the Holy cross, His Holy Catholic Majesty Stefan III
Left -2.69
Authoritarian 3.45
[/floatleft]
Winners of the Free South Califas Roller Hockey Tournament
Participant in the 61st cup of Harmony,the 48th Baptisim of
Fire, the 19th Rugby Union world cup and World Cup 62
History, Geography, Reading, European
holidays, running, soccer, golf and Badminton

User avatar
Seperates
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 14622
Founded: Sep 03, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby Seperates » Sun Dec 09, 2012 9:07 pm

Menassa wrote:
Seperates wrote:No... because other cultures have throughout history have tolerated and even accepted homosexuals. It's not even all religion persay as it is religion of the Abrahamic persuasion.

Which is probably why it spoken against so viciously.

"We need to be different somehow..."
"Wait, I know! Lets focus on sex!"
"Why?"
"Surely, you know the old saying... Once you have them by the balls, their hearts and minds soon follow."
"Brilliant!"
This Debate is simply an exercise in Rhetoric. Truth is a fickle being with no intentions of showing itself today.

Non fui, fui, non sum, non curo

"The most important fact about us: that we are greater than the institutions and cultures we build."--Roberto Mangabeira Unger

User avatar
Menassa
Post Czar
 
Posts: 33837
Founded: Aug 11, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Menassa » Sun Dec 09, 2012 9:07 pm

Bordurian wrote:
Menassa wrote:My personal opinion holds with the former... because the latter allows for non-Jews to have sexual relations with animals.... which is one of the world was destroyed for.

Do I think Homosexuals should be stoned according the Oral Law and that Homosexuality should be made illegal? No I do not think this.
If a person told me they were a Homosexual would I think any less of them? No I would not.

I believe that governments can preform those marriages. Just as long as they don't force it on a church. Based my understanding of the bible God isn't against being a homosexual. He's just against fulfilling homosexual needs.

Correct... the prohibition of living in the same house and sleeping in the same bed and being 'in love' or 'kissing' another man is purely Rabbinic.

However other forms of ways to achieve 'homosexual needs' could be seen as a wasting of semen.
Radical Monotheist
Their hollow inheritance.
This is my god and I shall exalt him
Jewish Discussion Thread בְּ
"A missionary uses the Bible like a drunk uses a lamppost, not so much for illumination, but for support"
"Imagine of a bunch of Zulu tribesmen told Congress how to read the Constitution, that's how it feels to a Jew when you tell us how to read our bible"
"God said: you must teach, as I taught, without a fee."
"Against your will you are formed, against your will you are born, against your will you live, against your will you die, and against your will you are destined to give a judgement and accounting before the king, king of all kings..."

User avatar
Menassa
Post Czar
 
Posts: 33837
Founded: Aug 11, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Menassa » Sun Dec 09, 2012 9:08 pm

Seperates wrote:
Menassa wrote:Which is probably why it spoken against so viciously.

"We need to be different somehow..."
"Wait, I know! Lets focus on sex!"
"Why?"
"Surely, you know the old saying... Once you have them by the balls, their hearts and minds soon follow."
"Brilliant!"

By Jove we've done it! Pull the hatch forward what year is it good sir?
Radical Monotheist
Their hollow inheritance.
This is my god and I shall exalt him
Jewish Discussion Thread בְּ
"A missionary uses the Bible like a drunk uses a lamppost, not so much for illumination, but for support"
"Imagine of a bunch of Zulu tribesmen told Congress how to read the Constitution, that's how it feels to a Jew when you tell us how to read our bible"
"God said: you must teach, as I taught, without a fee."
"Against your will you are formed, against your will you are born, against your will you live, against your will you die, and against your will you are destined to give a judgement and accounting before the king, king of all kings..."

User avatar
Seperates
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 14622
Founded: Sep 03, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby Seperates » Sun Dec 09, 2012 9:10 pm

Bordurian wrote:
Menassa wrote:My personal opinion holds with the former... because the latter allows for non-Jews to have sexual relations with animals.... which is one of the world was destroyed for.

Do I think Homosexuals should be stoned according the Oral Law and that Homosexuality should be made illegal? No I do not think this.
If a person told me they were a Homosexual would I think any less of them? No I would not.

I believe that governments can preform those marriages. Just as long as they don't force it on a church. Based my understanding of the bible God isn't against being a homosexual. He's just against fulfilling homosexual needs.

I'm not anti-humanity.
I'm just against them fufilling their needs to eat, drink, and breath. That's all.
This Debate is simply an exercise in Rhetoric. Truth is a fickle being with no intentions of showing itself today.

Non fui, fui, non sum, non curo

"The most important fact about us: that we are greater than the institutions and cultures we build."--Roberto Mangabeira Unger

User avatar
Orcoa
Senator
 
Posts: 4455
Founded: Jul 05, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby Orcoa » Sun Dec 09, 2012 9:11 pm

Seperates wrote:
Menassa wrote:Which is probably why it spoken against so viciously.

"We need to be different somehow..."
"Wait, I know! Lets focus on sex!"
"Why?"
"Surely, you know the old saying... Once you have them by the balls, their hearts and minds soon follow."
"Brilliant!"

I'll add to this

"You had me at balls" ;)
Long Live The Wolf Emperor!
This is the song I sing to those who screw with me XD

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uXnFhnpEgKY
"this is the Internet: The place where religion goes to die." Crystalcliff Point

User avatar
Menassa
Post Czar
 
Posts: 33837
Founded: Aug 11, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Menassa » Sun Dec 09, 2012 9:11 pm

Seperates wrote:
Bordurian wrote:I believe that governments can preform those marriages. Just as long as they don't force it on a church. Based my understanding of the bible God isn't against being a homosexual. He's just against fulfilling homosexual needs.

I'm not anti-humanity.
I'm just against them fufilling their needs to eat, drink, and breath. That's all.

Again that's like the Jew who says:

"I can get into heaven if I don't believe in God but still keep The Law!"
Radical Monotheist
Their hollow inheritance.
This is my god and I shall exalt him
Jewish Discussion Thread בְּ
"A missionary uses the Bible like a drunk uses a lamppost, not so much for illumination, but for support"
"Imagine of a bunch of Zulu tribesmen told Congress how to read the Constitution, that's how it feels to a Jew when you tell us how to read our bible"
"God said: you must teach, as I taught, without a fee."
"Against your will you are formed, against your will you are born, against your will you live, against your will you die, and against your will you are destined to give a judgement and accounting before the king, king of all kings..."

User avatar
Seperates
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 14622
Founded: Sep 03, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby Seperates » Sun Dec 09, 2012 9:11 pm

Menassa wrote:
Seperates wrote:"We need to be different somehow..."
"Wait, I know! Lets focus on sex!"
"Why?"
"Surely, you know the old saying... Once you have them by the balls, their hearts and minds soon follow."
"Brilliant!"

By Jove we've done it! Pull the hatch forward what year is it good sir?

Fuck it. Who cares? The Roman Catholic Church will just reinvent the dating system around some arbitrary date in a historically inaccurate book anyways.
This Debate is simply an exercise in Rhetoric. Truth is a fickle being with no intentions of showing itself today.

Non fui, fui, non sum, non curo

"The most important fact about us: that we are greater than the institutions and cultures we build."--Roberto Mangabeira Unger

PreviousNext

Advertisement

Remove ads

Return to General

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Armeattla, European Federal Union, Loeje, Picairn, Torrocca, Umeria, Z-Zone 3

Advertisement

Remove ads