Christian disscussion thread

[Orcoa]

So, Jesus is not a magician?

Yes, He was a great magician and your clothes are red

[The United Soviet Socialist Republic]

I saw the Saint Patrick's Cathedral on my trip to NYC.

[Jordsindia]

I believe in one God, or maybe many gods, i don't know, but probably one God. I do not follow any certain teachings, i just believe.

[Nansurium]

First of all, everyone is fallible. That is the nature of humanity. And it was not the Apostles who spread the faith through their own designs. God used the Apostles as simple tools to deliver his message to the masses, not the fallible apostles. Do Apostles have great authority? Absolutely. The distinction that I am making and that you aren't is that their authority was granted to them by God and by the divine inspiration each Apostle was blessed with.

I have made it quite clear already. I have no authority. The definition of authority is the power or right to give orders, make decisions and enforce obedience. I do not have any of those powers or rights nor does any other human being on earth except for those select few who were delegated such power by God and were used by God for the purpose of providing authority. So I am not the least bit concerned about the fact that I doubt my authority. I never had any to begin with.

Myself as supreme pontiff? Who would you prefer to rely upon? Your own intelligence, your own reason and your own logic? Or the logic, intelligence and reason of others? Does it make more sense for billions of people to be condemned because of your hierarchic structure's flawed interpretation rather than one person being condemned because he got it wrong? Do you trust the unknown motivations of others more than you do yourself? The idea that requiring my peers to review my interpretation of the Bible is utterly ludicrous. Why would I ask other men, who are fallible and who have questionable motivations, to review what I see with my eyes and comprehend with my mind? No, I think not. The only one who will review my faith is God when I stand before him on Judgement day. The only one who will correct me is God.

How can you ever question the power of God to control the affairs of men after reading the Bible. I look to the Old Testament, and I see one of the mightiest civilizations in the history of Man brought to its knees when God told Moses to lead the Israelite back to their homeland. I look to the Old testament and I see empires rise and fall at his merest whim. I read the opening verse of Genesis, and I see a God who, with a simple word, sparked the grand and intricately complex cosmic scheme that is our universe. I look to the Old Testament, and I see a God who covered the earth with water, killing its inhabitants, only to forgive and allow the earth's rebirth. I see a God that who reduce two mighty cities, Sodom and Gamorah to pillars of ash and dust. I see a God who, through one man, created a mighty nation that would eventually birth the Messiah. I see a God who lead men to prophesy about the future, who placed Jesus in the womb of a Virgin, who raised men from the dead, healed ailing men from their Sicknesses, turned water to wine, walked on water and fed 5000 people with a few baskets of bread. I see a God who died and three days later conquered death. And yet you tell me that this God required the opinions and interpretations of a few corrupt old men who were chosen by there peers in an attempt to structure and standardize the personal relationship between God and man in a way contrary to everything the Bible teaches us. No, I reject that notion.

As I said, I'm not interested in a tit for tat drama fest. Instead I'll ask another question:

Do you believe Jesus is God?

I will continue to turn to the scripture, the divinely inspired works of God's chosen, to find my faith not the interpretations of a fallible organization who has proven its fallibility for thousands of years. Find any authority for the actions of your Church, prove to me that the Pope or his Orthodox counterpart speaks with authority and perhaps I will change my views. But for now, I read the book of God and I find nothing in it that is remotely Catholic.

I already did.

Aside from that, how about another question?

What does the scripture say the pillar and foundation of the Faith is?

Of course I believe that Jesus is God, part of the trinity. That is the nature of Christianity.

You never provided specific verses from the Bible that authorize the activities of your church, no.

I assume you are referring to First Timothy 3:15, yes? This verse states that the Church is the pillar and foundation of our faith. Its ashame he never used the word Catholic or Orthodox isn't it? If we view that verse in context, we find that Timothy goes into great detail about the nature and structure of God's church. Let's take a look:

Timothy Chapter 3

It is a trustworthy statement: if any man aspires to the office of overseer, it is a fine work he desires to do. 2 An overseer, then, must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, prudent, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3 not addicted to wine or pugnacious, but gentle, peaceable, free from the love of money. 4 He must be one who manages his own household well, keeping his children under control with all dignity 5 (but if a man does not know how to manage his own household, how will he take care of the church of God?), 6 and not a new convert, so that he will not become conceited and fall into the condemnation incurred by the devil. 7 And he must have a good reputation with those outside the church, so that he will not fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

8 Deacons likewise must be men of dignity, not double-tongued, or addicted to much wine or fond of sordid gain, 9 but holding to the mystery of the faith with a clear conscience. 10 These men must also first be tested; then let them serve as deacons if they are beyond reproach. 11 Women must likewise be dignified, not malicious gossips, but temperate, faithful in all things. 12 Deacons must be husbands of only one wife, and good managers of their children and their own households. 13 For those who have served well as deacons obtain for themselves a high standing and great confidence in the faith that is in Christ Jesus.

14 I am writing these things to you, hoping to come to you before long; 15 but in case I am delayed, I write so that you will know how [w]one ought to conduct himself in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and support of the truth. 16 By common confession, great is the mystery of godliness:

So a few things to note from this passage: First of all, we see the explicit use of the term "deacon" in this text. Yet I am not aware of the use of deacons within the Orthodox or Catholic churches. Furthermore, this text clearly permits marriage and children for deacons. Yet in the catholic and orthodox church, members of the ecclesiastical hierarchy are not permitted to take wives (the Bible also explicitly permits this for Elders as well) or have children. Now in direct reference to the verse, when Paul wrote the words "I am writing these things to you" and "in case I am delayed" he was speaking directly to Timothy and the Church at Ephesus. When interpreting this verse you automatically assume that it is referring to your church (a natural response) but this verse works just as well for my church as well. Much of my faith is derived from being associated with so many individuals within my church who are like minded. We exhort and build up the faith of our peers. Also, my church follows the passage regarding deacons to the letter when we select our deacons.

[Homosexy]

meow. I had something else on here but I took it off.

So I have a question.

I don't pray to Jesus. I pray to God. Does it matter?

[Seleucas]

I doubt the existence of God and the supernatural, but even so, I do have a soft spot for Christianity. Moreso the high-church variety like Catholicism, Orthodoxy, Anglicanism etc. over the more mundane varieties like Baptism, etc.

[The United Soviet Socialist Republic]

I doubt the existence of God and the supernatural, but even so, I do have a soft spot for Christianity. Moreso the high-church variety like Catholicism, Orthodoxy, Anglicanism etc. over the more mundane varieties like Baptism, etc.

...Wha? Do you like the beauty of churches and cathedrals? Or?

[Seleucas]

I doubt the existence of God and the supernatural, but even so, I do have a soft spot for Christianity. Moreso the high-church variety like Catholicism, Orthodoxy, Anglicanism etc. over the more mundane varieties like Baptism, etc.

...Wha? Do you like the beauty of churches and cathedrals? Or?

That, and I like the decoration, outfits, ceremony, etc. Oftentimes Protestantism tends towards the dull and mundane, unfortunately. Not to mention that I like the idea of a magisterium, i.e. training to learn theology, over letting just anybody become a pastor and say whatever they want.

[Distruzio]

Of course I believe that Jesus is God, part of the trinity.

Good. Do you believe that Christ ascended into heaven body, mind and spirit? Also, do you believe that He is the head of the Church?

You never provided specific verses from the Bible that authorize the activities of your church, no.

How about the entire book of acts?

I assume you are referring to First Timothy 3:15, yes? This verse states that the Church is the pillar and foundation of our faith. Its ashame he never used the word Catholic or Orthodox isn't it? If we view that verse in context, we find that Timothy goes into great detail about the nature and structure of God's church.

My questions above relating to your beliefs about Jesus will bring us to this particular verse in due time. When you answer next, all will be clear.

So a few things to note from this passage: First of all, we see the explicit use of the term "deacon" in this text. Yet I am not aware of the use of deacons within the Orthodox or Catholic churches.

Then you do not know much of anything about the Church from which the Bible sprang. The Deacon is the third and lowest degree of the major orders of clergy in the Orthodox Church, following the bishop and the presbyter.

Furthermore, this text clearly permits marriage and children for deacons. Yet in the catholic and orthodox church, members of the ecclesiastical hierarchy are not permitted to take wives (the Bible also explicitly permits this for Elders as well) or have children.

Once more, you are absolutely incorrect. Members of the ecclesiastical hierarchy are, indeed, permitted and encouraged to marry and reproduce.

[The United Soviet Socialist Republic]

As I said, I'm not interested in a tit for tat drama fest. Instead I'll ask another question:

Do you believe Jesus is God?




I already did.

Aside from that, how about another question?

What does the scripture say the pillar and foundation of the Faith is?

Of course I believe that Jesus is God, part of the trinity. That is the nature of Christianity.

You never provided specific verses from the Bible that authorize the activities of your church, no.

I assume you are referring to First Timothy 3:15, yes? This verse states that the Church is the pillar and foundation of our faith. Its ashame he never used the word Catholic or Orthodox isn't it? If we view that verse in context, we find that Timothy goes into great detail about the nature and structure of God's church. Let's take a look:

Timothy Chapter 3

It is a trustworthy statement: if any man aspires to the office of overseer, it is a fine work he desires to do. 2 An overseer, then, must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, prudent, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3 not addicted to wine or pugnacious, but gentle, peaceable, free from the love of money. 4 He must be one who manages his own household well, keeping his children under control with all dignity 5 (but if a man does not know how to manage his own household, how will he take care of the church of God?), 6 and not a new convert, so that he will not become conceited and fall into the condemnation incurred by the devil. 7 And he must have a good reputation with those outside the church, so that he will not fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

8 Deacons likewise must be men of dignity, not double-tongued, or addicted to much wine or fond of sordid gain, 9 but holding to the mystery of the faith with a clear conscience. 10 These men must also first be tested; then let them serve as deacons if they are beyond reproach. 11 Women must likewise be dignified, not malicious gossips, but temperate, faithful in all things. 12 Deacons must be husbands of only one wife, and good managers of their children and their own households. 13 For those who have served well as deacons obtain for themselves a high standing and great confidence in the faith that is in Christ Jesus.

14 I am writing these things to you, hoping to come to you before long; 15 but in case I am delayed, I write so that you will know how [w]one ought to conduct himself in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and support of the truth. 16 By common confession, great is the mystery of godliness:

So a few things to note from this passage: First of all, we see the explicit use of the term "deacon" in this text. Yet I am not aware of the use of deacons within the Orthodox or Catholic churches. Furthermore, this text clearly permits marriage and children for deacons. Yet in the catholic and orthodox church, members of the ecclesiastical hierarchy are not permitted to take wives (the Bible also explicitly permits this for Elders as well) or have children. Now in direct reference to the verse, when Paul wrote the words "I am writing these things to you" and "in case I am delayed" he was speaking directly to Timothy and the Church at Ephesus. When interpreting this verse you automatically assume that it is referring to your church (a natural response) but this verse works just as well for my church as well. Much of my faith is derived from being associated with so many individuals within my church who are like minded. We exhort and build up the faith of our peers. Also, my church follows the passage regarding deacons to the letter when we select our deacons.

Of course Jesus is part of the Trinity, the Holy Trinity is the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit.

[Serrland]

So a few things to note from this passage: First of all, we see the explicit use of the term "deacon" in this text. Yet I am not aware of the use of deacons within the Orthodox or Catholic churches. Furthermore, this text clearly permits marriage and children for deacons. Yet in the catholic and orthodox church, members of the ecclesiastical hierarchy are not permitted to take wives (the Bible also explicitly permits this for Elders as well) or have children. Now in direct reference to the verse, when Paul wrote the words "I am writing these things to you" and "in case I am delayed" he was speaking directly to Timothy and the Church at Ephesus. When interpreting this verse you automatically assume that it is referring to your church (a natural response) but this verse works just as well for my church as well. Much of my faith is derived from being associated with so many individuals within my church who are like minded. We exhort and build up the faith of our peers. Also, my church follows the passage regarding deacons to the letter when we select our deacons.

Catholic and Orthodox deacons can both marry and have children.

Priests can be married and have children, too, even in Catholic Churches - it is only the Latinists who frown upon it, but even then it is not entirely verboten, as situations can arise in which the ordination of a married priest is an acceptable ordination. I can't speak for all Eastern Catholic denominations, but the reason in my Church that the upper hierarchy is unmarried is that they are typically drawn from the monastic traditions.

[An Slanaitheoir]

So a few things to note from this passage: First of all, we see the explicit use of the term "deacon" in this text. Yet I am not aware of the use of deacons within the Orthodox or Catholic churches. Furthermore, this text clearly permits marriage and children for deacons. Yet in the catholic and orthodox church, members of the ecclesiastical hierarchy are not permitted to take wives (the Bible also explicitly permits this for Elders as well) or have children.

From Wikipedia

In the years just prior to the Second Vatican Council, the only men ordained as deacons were seminarians who were completing the last year or so of graduate theological training, who received the order several months before priestly ordination.

Following the recommendations of the council (in Lumen Gentium 29), in 1967 Pope Paul VI issued the motu proprio Sacrum Diaconatus Ordinem, restoring the ancient practice of ordaining to the diaconate men who were not candidates for priestly ordination. These men are known as permanent deacons in contrast to those completing their training, who were then called transitional deacons.

The permanent diaconate formation period in the Roman Catholic Church entails a year of prayerful preparation, a four- or five-year training period that resembles a collegiate course of study, and a year of post-ordination formation as well as the need for lifelong continuing education credits. Diaconal candidates receive instruction in philosophy, theology, study of the Holy Scriptures (the Bible), homiletics, sacramental studies, evangelization, ecclesiology, counseling, and pastoral care and ministry before ordination. Although they are assigned to work in a parish by the diocesan bishop, once assigned, deacons are under the supervision of the parish pastor.[7] Unlike most clerics, permanent deacons who also have a secular profession have no right to receive a salary for their ministry,[8] but many dioceses opt to remunerate them anyway.

The only deacons that I know are the three at my parish, two of which are married and have a Secular job(although one is moving and the other has stopped going to church things (men's group, serving at mass as a Deacon, etc.), I believe because of family issues but I am not 100% on that), the other I have heard much about. I don't know who told you that about the Catholic Church, but... yea.

As for what Serrland said about priest, yes, priests can marry in the in the Eastern rite. Also, if a protestant priest (may extend to pastors as well, I am not sure about that though) convert but is already married, he does not have get a divorce/annulment or no longer be a priest.

[Bordurian]

I'm Catholic. Don't care about anybody else's sect as long as their Christian!

[New Louconqueso]

Refreshing to see Christians in the atheistic wasteland that is this game.

[Seperates]

Refreshing to see Christians in the atheistic wasteland that is this game.

*slow clap* You obviously havn't been looking very hard. They are like... oh... 40% of the community from the polls I've seen.

[Bordurian]

Is it just me or does anyone else hate how atheists persecute us on this site?

[Serrland]

Is it just me or does anyone else hate how atheists persecute us on this site?

Errr... persecute? How?

[Seperates]

Is it just me or does anyone else hate how atheists persecute us on this site?

You are crying persecution on a DEBATE forum on the INTERNET?

Please, don't even insult the actually persecuted by pretending that you are persecuted. Refutation of bad arguements and logical fallacies is not persecution, nor will it ever be.

[The Mongol Ilkhanate]

Is it just me or does anyone else hate how atheists persecute us on this site?

You are crying persecution on a DEBATE forum on the INTERNET?

Please, don't even insult the actually persecuted by pretending that you are persecuted. Refutation of bad arguements and logical fallacies is not persecution, nor will it ever be.

PS, it's spelled arguments.

Well, I'll just kick the hornet's nest and ask, what is your system of reasoning?

[Seperates]

You are crying persecution on a DEBATE forum on the INTERNET?

Please, don't even insult the actually persecuted by pretending that you are persecuted. Refutation of bad arguements and logical fallacies is not persecution, nor will it ever be.

PS, it's spelled arguments.

Well, I'll just kick the hornet's nest and ask, what is your system of reasoning?

It doesn't matter how it is spelled, so long as you can easily discern what I am saying. Your grammatical correcting does nothing to destroy the argue-a-ments that are being presented.

What is my system of reasoning? For this specific topic, or for life in general? Be more specific with your line of questioning.

As for this specific topic, I am quite honestly convinced that this person is talking out of their ass. On Nationstates, there is no such thing as persecution, with the only line really being drawn at zoophilia (mostly because we don't want this place to become 4chan).

Persecution is when people kick you only because of the color of your skin, bloody ni**er. Persecution is when your family disowns you and kicks you out at 15 because you are a male who happens to like males, you fa**ot. Persecution is when you go the police, and they just laugh you out of the station because the problems of a dumb s**c doesn't concern the police. That is persecution.

I am happy that I live in an area that, despite all the Christian propganda and legislation and what-not, I have never actually been persecuted. I've been irritated, annoying, frusterated, and de-monsteracized... but I've never been persecuted, because that would be degrading to those who have lived and suffered through persecution.

[Bordurian]

Is it just me or does anyone else hate how atheists persecute us on this site?

You are crying persecution on a DEBATE forum on the INTERNET?

Please, don't even insult the actually persecuted by pretending that you are persecuted. Refutation of bad arguements and logical fallacies is not persecution, nor will it ever be.

I wasn't talking about this Forum that's why I said site .

[Seperates]

You are crying persecution on a DEBATE forum on the INTERNET?

Please, don't even insult the actually persecuted by pretending that you are persecuted. Refutation of bad arguements and logical fallacies is not persecution, nor will it ever be.

I wasn't talking about this Forum that's why I said site .

THIS SITE?!?!?!
I would laugh if I wasn't crying so hard at your ignorance of what you just said.

[Stovokor]

Is it just me or does anyone else hate how atheists persecute us on this site?

Um.. yeah well if that's how some religious people view discussion then by all means i'll go grab my pitchfork and fire and say hello to my county's local churches. Best not to get off on the wrong foot ya know? Hey at least government radicals don't claim that you shouldn't have rights or should be not considered citizens because of your faith or lack there of.

[Distruzio]

Is it just me or does anyone else hate how atheists persecute us on this site?

We aren't persecuted. You simply have to recognize the structure of the argument as the atheist paints it and refuse to play according to his rules. Which is precisely what he does to you by identifying himself as a non Christian. It means that no Christian justification for your faith will convert him, and that no atheist justification for skepticism will convert you.

Draw the line in the sand but don't confuse that line for bars on the window. We aren't persecuted. We are set apart.

[Stovokor]

Alright why not, please Distruzio, clarify these things with set us apart in greater detail.