Christian disscussion thread

[Not Safe For Work]

So, out of curiosity, how does one then account for all the genetic faults that lead to miscarriage and death during childbirth or shortly thereafter. Moreover, how do you reconcile that with the concept of limbo and/or baptism?

God had planned that. He knew you prior to your existence. He knows all of your actions even before you do it and He knows what you will go through even before it occurs.

This particular can is labelled 'free will'. You're probably going to wish you hadn't opened it. It's full of worms.

[Mavorpen]

God had planned that. He knew you prior to your existence. He knows all of your actions even before you do it and He knows what you will go through even before it occurs.

So we don't have free will.

Some of the best historical people had their flaws.

People thought Albert Einstein was mentally ill.
Thomas Edison made C's in chemistry
Hellen Keller was blind and deaf, but she finally learned to be able to read and use sign- language
A woman who was at the Aurora movie theater had a hole in her brain. She was shot and the bullet went through the hole and landed behind her brain. The doctors said she was lucky to have that hole.

That's nice. What about the babies that die right after being born or with deformities that cause them to only live a few years?

[The Realm of God]

Orthodoxy veiws Gods plan as Macro. He takes an interest in individuals and 'knows you' but he only plans on a Strategic Scale, you are only a cog in a great cosmic plan.

If God took a Micro Scale interest, we would not have deformed births now would we.

Or what if God chooses to allow people to be deformed because He wants to tell a greater story through their lives?

No people serve God despite their random deformations.

I reckon God's plan is like this.

1.Get Milk.
2.???????
3.Profit.

Rather than the fundie.

1.Get Micheal to get milk.
2.Micheal will pass 1.2X10 to the 8 blue cars.
3. He will enter the store to get Milk.
4.He will go Home.

[Norstal]

Yes, but it is not random if God controls it. He never makes a mistake and created you the way he wanted you to be. He left no detail to chance. He planned you and knew you even before you existed.

Orthodoxy veiws Gods plan as Macro. He takes an interest in individuals and 'knows you' but he only plans on a Strategic Scale, you are only a cog in a great cosmic plan.

If God took a Micro Scale interest, we would not have deformed births now would we.

So you're saying there is no personal God?

[United States of Cascadia]

So, out of curiosity, how does one then account for all the genetic faults that lead to miscarriage and death during childbirth or shortly thereafter. Moreover, how do you reconcile that with the concept of limbo and/or baptism?

God had planned that. He knew you prior to your existence. He knows all of your actions even before you do it and He knows what you will go through even before it occurs.

So you admit that your god creates more abortions than anyone?

[Tlaceceyaya]

So, out of curiosity, how does one then account for all the genetic faults that lead to miscarriage and death during childbirth or shortly thereafter. Moreover, how do you reconcile that with the concept of limbo and/or baptism?

God had planned that. He knew you prior to your existence. He knows all of your actions even before you do it and He knows what you will go through even before it occurs.

Some of the best historical people had their flaws.

People thought Albert Einstein was mentally ill. ^{Citation and relevance needed.}
Thomas Edison made C's in chemistry ^{Citation and relevance needed.}
Hellen Keller was blind and deaf, but she finally learned to be able to read and use sign- language ^{But she would have been happier if she had not lost her sight and hearing.}
A woman who was at the Aurora movie theater had a hole in her brain. She was shot and the bullet went through the hole and landed behind her brain. The doctors said she was lucky to have that hole.

As in my previous post a few seconds ago, anencephaly. What's the purpose in that?

And what about people with genetic disorders who do not end up doing great things because of them?

[Adventus Secundus]

Or what if God chooses to allow people to be deformed because He wants to tell a greater story through their lives?

Then he is very cruel.

My mother was a nurse. She held a child exactly like that while it died on a Flight for Life helicopter. She believes that child is with God now. Your point?

[Tlaceceyaya]

Then he is very cruel.

My mother was a nurse. She held a child exactly like that while it died on a Flight for Life helicopter. She believes that child is with God now. Your point?

Okay. So the child existed just so it could die and go to heaven. Why not just continually create and destroy life so that it goes to heaven? Why not just continually create life in heaven?

[The Realm of God]

Orthodoxy veiws Gods plan as Macro. He takes an interest in individuals and 'knows you' but he only plans on a Strategic Scale, you are only a cog in a great cosmic plan.

If God took a Micro Scale interest, we would not have deformed births now would we.

So you're saying there is no personal God?

There is but there is an overreaching Platonic Cosmic Plan that all are part of and are free to move about in.

[Mavorpen]

Then he is very cruel.

My mother was a nurse. She held a child exactly like that while it died on a Flight for Life helicopter. She believes that child is with God now. Your point?

Your mother would technically be wrong. The child must be baptized, because it is the passing on of the sins of humanity as well as other sins. That child would not go to heaven.

[Not Safe For Work]

Then he is very cruel.

My mother was a nurse. She held a child exactly like that while it died on a Flight for Life helicopter. She believes that child is with God now. Your point?

How is that an argument?

'My mom believes x' is not an argument against the harsh reality of anencephaly.

[United States of Cascadia]

My mother was a nurse. She held a child exactly like that while it died on a Flight for Life helicopter. She believes that child is with God now. Your point?

Your mother would technically be wrong. The child must be baptized, because it is the passing on of the sins of humanity as well as other sins. That child would not go to heaven.

And sins that god created too. He hence made it so that baby would die and be tormented, at least, according to the fundies.

[Nordengrund]

My mother was a nurse. She held a child exactly like that while it died on a Flight for Life helicopter. She believes that child is with God now. Your point?

Your mother would technically be wrong. The child must be baptized, because it is the passing on of the sins of humanity as well as other sins. That child would not go to heaven.

Being baptized does not get you saved. You can only be saved by accepting Christ into your life. My church does baptize people, but it is a symbolic ritual. We do it to symbolize that a saved person has been "born again"

[Helcasia]

You would have not truly created the child. God is the one who assembles the child through genetics, then that person gives birth to it. So even if you gave birth to it, God is still the creator.

We have 46 chromosones. 23 in the sperm and 23 in the egg.

Random chance does the rest.

It's not truly random. To us humans it seems random, but it's not.

[United States of Cascadia]

Your mother would technically be wrong. The child must be baptized, because it is the passing on of the sins of humanity as well as other sins. That child would not go to heaven.

Being baptized does not get you saved. You can only be saved by accepting Christ into your life. My church does baptize people, but it is a symbolic ritual. We do it to symbolize that a saved person has been "born again"

But a baby is not a sapient being yet, and hence is not capable of "accepting Christ", and since your god knows this, he created that being knowing that it would be tormented for eternity.

[Genivaria]

So you're saying there is no personal God?

There is but there is an overreaching Platonic Cosmic Plan that all are part of and are free to move about in.

That doesn't make sense. He has a plan for all of us but we can do whatever we want?
Trying playing a game of chess where all your pieces have free will.

[Mavorpen]

Being baptized does not get you saved. You can only be saved by accepting Christ into your life. My church does baptize people, but it is a symbolic ritual. We do it to symbolize that a saved person has been "born again"

Exactly, babies are not born accepting Christ. Babies are born Atheists.

[Nordengrund]

Being baptized does not get you saved. You can only be saved by accepting Christ into your life. My church does baptize people, but it is a symbolic ritual. We do it to symbolize that a saved person has been "born again"

But a baby is not a sapient being yet, and hence is not capable of "accepting Christ".

Well, since a baby is not a sapient being, they are accepted into Heaven anyway because they do not know better.

[The Realm of God]

Your mother would technically be wrong. The child must be baptized, because it is the passing on of the sins of humanity as well as other sins. That child would not go to heaven.

And sins that god created too. He hence made it so that baby would die and be tormented, at least, according to the fundies.

Yes according to the fundies?

According to the Orthodox, the child is an innocent and so cannot sin ( Orthodox belief holds that you need to know what sin is).

Therefore the child, having never been exposed to Chritstianity amd having no comprehension of sin would now he in heaven.

Also unlike the fundies, this is an incredibly sad event, the child will never get the chance to live life.

[Serrland]

My mother was a nurse. She held a child exactly like that while it died on a Flight for Life helicopter. She believes that child is with God now. Your point?

Your mother would technically be wrong. The child must be baptized, because it is the passing on of the sins of humanity as well as other sins. That child would not go to heaven.

er...no?

The conclusion of this study is that there are theological and liturgical reasons to hope that infants who die without baptism may be saved and brought into eternal happiness, even if there is not an explicit teaching on this question found in Revelation. However, none of the considerations proposed in this text to motivate a new approach to the question may be used to negate the necessity of baptism, nor to delay the conferral of the sacrament. Rather, there are reasons to hope that God will save these infants precisely because it was not possible to do for them that what would have been most desirable— to baptize them in the faith of the Church and incorporate them visibly into the Body of Christ.

or in Orthodoxy, the position on original sin makes such a statement equally incorrect. Unless you are arguing a Calvinist or fundamentalist type argument?

[Norstal]

There is but there is an overreaching Platonic Cosmic Plan that all are part of and are free to move about in.

That doesn't make sense. He has a plan for all of us but we can do whatever we want?
Trying playing a game of chess where all your pieces have free will.

That'd be fun though.

Knight: fuck this shit. I'm moving vertically.

All the other pieces: *Gasps*

[Mavorpen]

But a baby is not a sapient being yet, and hence is not capable of "accepting Christ".

Well, since a baby is not a sapient being, they are accepted into Heaven anyway because they do not know better.

So you're contradicting yourself. Why would Jesus bother telling you to spread the gospel if people who aren't aware of Christianity get into heaven? It makes no sense.

[Vestmann]

Any answers to my inquiry?

[The Realm of God]

There is but there is an overreaching Platonic Cosmic Plan that all are part of and are free to move about in.

That doesn't make sense. He has a plan for all of us but we can do whatever we want?
Trying playing a game of chess where all your pieces have free will.

Try using a computer program running on a random allgorithum with set parameters to solve a problem.

[Nordengrund]

Well, since a baby is not a sapient being, they are accepted into Heaven anyway because they do not know better.

So you're contradicting yourself. Why would Jesus bother telling you to spread the gospel if people who aren't aware of Christianity get into heaven? It makes no sense.

A baby doesn't know better, a sapient human does. Since a baby is incapable of making a choice like that, it would not be fair to send it to hell for not knowing better.