Is There a God?

[North Suran]

Religion, especially in its modern, organized form is extraordinarily dangerous and causes many deaths all the time.

As does nationalism, communism, and even atheism, along with every other ideology under the Sun. Yet no one would claim any of these ideologies is inherently dangerous or destructive. Their adherents have the capability to be violent and capricious, just as they have the capability to be tolerant and peaceful. The fact is, people often use the alleged 'intolerance' of organised religion to promote intolerance of organised religion. Intolerance does not become righteous simply because it is practised against the intolerant.

[DaWoad]

1: If a belief cannot be proven, it should not be held. You say that you respect science. What about the poor neglected null hypothesis? What about Russel's teapot?

You do not believe in a deity. Yet it is impossible to prove, by scientific methods, that a deity does not exist anywhere in the galaxy. We simply do not know. Your belief in atheism cannot be proven on a universal level, yet you are still entitled to have it. Speaking cosmologically, we both simply speculate.

that's a fallacy. A common fallacy but a fallacy none the less. Believing in something is not equivalent to not believing it. Primarily because it's impossible to prove something untestable doesn't exist.

2: Our galaxy is 110000 light years in diameter. It has about 300 billion stars. The centre of our galaxy, Sagitarrius A, is a really, really massive black hole. Also, there's a hexagon on the top of saturn and science knows why.

And these four facts equate to universal knowledge of our universe, its structure and its origins?

well no, but they suggest we know more than your previous post suggested.

[The Crimson Realm]

You know, some (most) people hold their religious values (or lack there of) very dearly... It pains me to see you toss around insults and go out of your way to bash religious views.

Religion, especially in its modern, organized form is extraordinarily dangerous and causes many deaths all the time. It pains me to see people put so much faith in something so ridiculous and divisive that causes so much strife and damage. People hold political views dearly, but I'm sure that you take no issue in ridiculing someone who has incredibly ridiculous political views.

You misread what I said (or at least what I meant), if you want to bash Christians who go round firebombing abortion clinics, go ahead. If you want to bash Muslims who blow themselves up in crowded market places, go ahead. However, at least admit that this is an outlier of the basic religious community. The majority of religions preach love and forgiveness so you have little right to lash out at such a thing.

[Samuraikoku]

I'm sure there is.
Whenever I pray, the prayer comes true.

I pray for a PS3/360 to appear on my desk.

...

Done praying.

*Looks to desk*

Aw.

[Frisivisia]

1: If a belief cannot be proven, it should not be held. You say that you respect science. What about the poor neglected null hypothesis? What about Russel's teapot?

You do not believe in a deity. Yet it is impossible to prove, by scientific methods, that a deity does not exist anywhere in the galaxy. We simply do not know. Your belief in atheism cannot be proven on a universal level, yet you are still entitled to have it. Speaking cosmologically, we both simply speculate.

2: Our galaxy is 110000 light years in diameter. It has about 300 billion stars. The centre of our galaxy, Sagitarrius A, is a really, really massive black hole. Also, there's a hexagon on the top of saturn and science knows why.

And these four facts equate to universal knowledge of our universe, its structure and its origins?

No, but it shows that we know a lot of shit. And you are using the God of the Gaps fallacy, right? Basically, you are using "God" to explain what we don't know. Instead of going the logical, scientific route, and saying, "We don't know right now, but let's find out.", you are content to say "God did it.". It's regressive and only serves to make us feel better about being afraid of the scientific darkness of ignorance, rather than wanting light.

[Frisivisia]

Religion, especially in its modern, organized form is extraordinarily dangerous and causes many deaths all the time. It pains me to see people put so much faith in something so ridiculous and divisive that causes so much strife and damage. People hold political views dearly, but I'm sure that you take no issue in ridiculing someone who has incredibly ridiculous political views.

You misread what I said (or at least what I meant), if you want to bash Christians who go round firebombing abortion clinics, go ahead. If you want to bash Muslims who blow themselves up in crowded market places, go ahead. However, at least admit that this is an outlier of the basic religious community. The majority of religions preach love and forgiveness so you have little right to lash out at such a thing.

That outlier enables and gives power to the firebomber and marketplace jihadist. The masses of pacifistic believers only serve to give power to the extremists.

[Frisivisia]

Religion, especially in its modern, organized form is extraordinarily dangerous and causes many deaths all the time.

As does nationalism, communism, and even atheism, along with every other ideology under the Sun. Yet no one would claim any of these ideologies is inherently dangerous or destructive. Their adherents have the capability to be violent and capricious, just as they have the capability to be tolerant and peaceful. The fact is, people often use the alleged 'intolerance' of organised religion to promote intolerance of organised religion. Intolerance does not become righteous simply because it is practised against the intolerant.

The problem being that ideology is necessary for civilization, and will always be debated, whereas religion is unnecessary, and should therefore be eliminated.

[Samuraikoku]

You misread what I said (or at least what I meant), if you want to bash Christians who go round firebombing abortion clinics, go ahead. If you want to bash Muslims who blow themselves up in crowded market places, go ahead. However, at least admit that this is an outlier of the basic religious community. The majority of religions preach love and forgiveness so you have little right to lash out at such a thing.

Ezekiel 25:17

"And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee."

[Farnhamia]

I'm sure there is.
Whenever I pray, the prayer comes true.

I pray for a PS3/360 to appear on my desk.

...

Done praying.

*Looks to desk*

Aw.

Are you sure you were praying to God, and not to one of those Catholic idols or saints or whatever you mackerel snappers call them?

[Of the Free Socialist Territories]

Religion, especially in its modern, organized form is extraordinarily dangerous and causes many deaths all the time. It pains me to see people put so much faith in something so ridiculous and divisive that causes so much strife and damage. People hold political views dearly, but I'm sure that you take no issue in ridiculing someone who has incredibly ridiculous political views.

You misread what I said (or at least what I meant), if you want to bash Christians who go round firebombing abortion clinics, go ahead. If you want to bash Muslims who blow themselves up in crowded market places, go ahead. However, at least admit that this is an outlier of the basic religious community. The majority of religions preach love and forgiveness so you have little right to lash out at such a thing.

Here's just one example to the contrary.

A Blasphemer Put to Death

10 Now the son of an Israelite mother and an Egyptian father went out among the Israelites, and a fight broke out in the camp between him and an Israelite. 11 The son of the Israelite woman blasphemed the Name with a curse; so they brought him to Moses. (His mother’s name was Shelomith, the daughter of Dibri the Danite.) 12 They put him in custody until the will of the Lord should be made clear to them.

13 Then the Lord said to Moses: 14 “Take the blasphemer outside the camp. All those who heard him are to lay their hands on his head, and the entire assembly is to stone him. 15 Say to the Israelites: ‘Anyone who curses their God will be held responsible; 16 anyone who blasphemes the name of the Lord is to be put to death. The entire assembly must stone them. Whether foreigner or native-born, when they blaspheme the Name they are to be put to death.

17 “‘Anyone who takes the life of a human being is to be put to death. 18 Anyone who takes the life of someone’s animal must make restitution —life for life. 19 Anyone who injures their neighbor is to be injured in the same manner: 20 fracture for fracture, eye for eye, tooth for tooth. The one who has inflicted the injury must suffer the same injury. 21 Whoever kills an animal must make restitution, but whoever kills a human being is to be put to death. 22 You are to have the same law for the foreigner and the native-born. I am the Lord your God.’”

23 Then Moses spoke to the Israelites, and they took the blasphemer outside the camp and stoned him. The Israelites did as the Lord commanded Moses.

Then we have the whole 10 Plagues where an entire people is punished due to Pharaoh's actions, Sodom and Gomorrah, the Book of Revelation and the Flooding of the Earth.

Loving that whole love and forgiveness thing.

[The Crimson Realm]

You misread what I said (or at least what I meant), if you want to bash Christians who go round firebombing abortion clinics, go ahead. If you want to bash Muslims who blow themselves up in crowded market places, go ahead. However, at least admit that this is an outlier of the basic religious community. The majority of religions preach love and forgiveness so you have little right to lash out at such a thing.

That outlier enables and gives power to the firebomber and marketplace jihadist. The masses of pacifistic believers only serve to give power to the extremists.

So I suppose every Atheist is a Josef Stalin now? How quaint.

[Samuraikoku]

Are you sure you were praying to God, and not to one of those Catholic idols or saints or whatever you mackerel snappers call them?

Friday abstinence of red meat and poultry?

My mother makes pizza on Fridays...

*beat*

Oh. I see.

[North Suran]

that's a fallacy. A common fallacy but a fallacy none the less. Believing in something is not equivalent to not believing it. Primarily because it's impossible to prove something untestable doesn't exist.

Believing that deities exist and believing that they do not are both beliefs. One may be in opposition to the other, but they are still beliefs. And as such, believing that there are no deities at all is speculative, since we do not have sufficient knowledge to prove it. It is entirely possible to prove it. If I believed that there were pink elephants in Mogadishu, and you believed otherwise, you could disprove my assertion by simply going to Mogadishu and recording the number - or lack thereof - of pink elephants. Naturally, such a scientific method is infeasible when discussing deism.

well no, but they suggest we know more than your previous post suggested.

My original post read "We know barely anything about the universe". I do not see how knowing how many stars are in the Milky Way refutes this.

[Farnhamia]

Are you sure you were praying to God, and not to one of those Catholic idols or saints or whatever you mackerel snappers call them?

Friday abstinence of red meat and poultry?

My mother makes pizza on Fridays...

*beat*

Oh. I see.

Now, now ...

[Samuraikoku]

Now, now ...

I still have the pizza.

Send you some next Friday if you like.

[Frisivisia]

That outlier enables and gives power to the firebomber and marketplace jihadist. The masses of pacifistic believers only serve to give power to the extremists.

So I suppose every Atheist is a Josef Stalin now? How quaint.

Know what, Ima say that was a misstep.

[North Suran]

That outlier enables and gives power to the firebomber and marketplace jihadist. The masses of pacifistic believers only serve to give power to the extremists.

So in the same way, the Irish population gave power to the IRA, and must therefore be held accountable for its actions? Radicals exist in every group. That does not mean it is legitimate to lump them in with the moderates, or blame the latter for 'shielding' them by inaction or complicity.

The problem being that ideology is necessary for civilization, and will always be debated, whereas religion is unnecessary, and should therefore be eliminated.

A civilisation where one ideology is arbitrarily deemed unnecessary and selected for elimination is not one in which I would wish to live. As history as shown, whenever a mass movement has decided that a rival mass movement is degenerate and must be destroyed, nothing good has ever followed. You accuse religion of giving birth to violence; your call for it to be eliminated would generate as much bloodshed.

[Farnhamia]

Now, now ...

I still have the pizza.

Send you some next Friday if you like.

I'll let you know.

[East Cranstonia]

That outlier enables and gives power to the firebomber and marketplace jihadist. The masses of pacifistic believers only serve to give power to the extremists.

So in the same way, the Irish population gave power to the IRA, and must therefore be held accountable for its actions? Radicals exist in every group. That does not mean it is legitimate to lump them in with the moderates, or blame the latter for 'shielding' them by inaction or complicity.

The problem being that ideology is necessary for civilization, and will always be debated, whereas religion is unnecessary, and should therefore be eliminated.

A civilisation where one ideology is arbitrarily deemed unnecessary and selected for elimination is not one in which I would wish to live. As history as shown, whenever a mass movement has decided that a rival mass movement is degenerate and must be destroyed, nothing good has ever followed. You accuse religion of giving birth to violence; your call for it to be eliminated would generate as much bloodshed.

Rationally put.

[Frisivisia]

That outlier enables and gives power to the firebomber and marketplace jihadist. The masses of pacifistic believers only serve to give power to the extremists.

So in the same way, the Irish population gave power to the IRA, and must therefore be held accountable for its actions? Radicals exist in every group. That does not mean it is legitimate to lump them in with the moderates, or blame the latter for 'shielding' them by inaction or complicity.

The problem being that ideology is necessary for civilization, and will always be debated, whereas religion is unnecessary, and should therefore be eliminated.

A civilisation where one ideology is arbitrarily deemed unnecessary and selected for elimination is not one in which I would wish to live. As history as shown, whenever a mass movement has decided that a rival mass movement is degenerate and must be destroyed, nothing good has ever followed. You accuse religion of giving birth to violence; your call for it to be eliminated would generate as much bloodshed.

Well, for one, I'm not saying "kill all the religious people and hang the pope, I'm saying that religion is dumb and people should stop following it. I also think that my previous argument was pretty much a misstep, and I'm backtracking it.

[The Crimson Realm]

So I suppose every Atheist is a Josef Stalin now? How quaint.

Know what, Ima say that was a misstep.

Your apology is accepted.

[Frisivisia]

Know what, Ima say that was a misstep.

Your apology is accepted.

You're still wrong, you know?

[North Suran]

The problem being that atheism isn't organized. There is no church of atheism. No one prays to an atheist God. Atheism is just a label based around the belief of a certain scientific fact.

There are atheist parties, organisations and societies. There are even atheist states. It seems very counterproductive to claim that a movement can only be organised if it adopts the model of religion. The Democratic Party does not pray to Barack Obama every Sunday or worship at the altar of Franklin Delano Roosevelt, yet no one would claim that the left-wing is not organised.

You could argue that because I believe in atoms, I support the building of atomic bombs.

It would be as much a leap in judgement as accusing someone of supporting religious extremism simply for being religious.

[Frisivisia]

The problem being that atheism isn't organized. There is no church of atheism. No one prays to an atheist God. Atheism is just a label based around the belief of a certain scientific fact.

There are atheist parties, organisations and societies. It seems very counterproductive to claim that a movement can only be organised if it adopts the model of religion. The Democratic Party does not pray to Barack Obama every Sunday or worship at the altar of Franklin Delano Roosevelt, yet no one would claim that the left-wing is not organised.

You could argue that because I believe in atoms, I support the building of atomic bombs.

It would be as much a leap in judgement as accusing someone of supporting religious extremism simply for being religious.

I edited that post, sorry 'bout that, I realize my argument there was as fallacy-driven as yours. My apologies.

[North Suran]

Well, for one, I'm not saying "kill all the religious people and hang the pope, I'm saying that religion is dumb and people should stop following it.

A fair enough opinion. But I do not see why that precludes the coexistence of atheism and theism. I am not a conservative, and I often take offence at the actions of the right-wing in my country, but that does not mean I would simply see the right-wing disappear. Every civilisation is enriched for having a multi-faceted culture. A monolithic culture of any description would be insufferable. The existence of religion does not pose an inherent threat to the existence of atheism. It seems that leaders from both sides of the divide are intent on driving their followers to war, simply for the sake of posturing and popularity.