Is There a God?

[Demphor]

I'm sure you've considered that it probably isn't God that's guiding you and it's more than likely yourself?

Yes, I've made decisions on my own.

But in other cases when I don't know what to do, pray when I have the chance.

I usually pray alone or in Church.

And God doesn't guide me through EVERYTHING of course, just things I ask him to.

[Xeng He]

A hypothesis is an intended explanation which is specific and can be proven objectively. Learn words.

And what part of "X god exists, with clearly defined tenets, reasoning, and abilities" is unspecific?

As for the "objectively verifiable" part, that's simply a matter of figuring out how testing is possible. Throwing up one's hands here isn't much better than giving a potential method of testing that's far off, like, say..."if we were able to travel outside the universe, and find a being like X god, and saw him demonstrate this, then we'd have evidence."

[Nouvelle-Albion]

The key word is probably.

That depends on how probably you think it.

Hypotheticals don't work that well, because the question that needs to be asked is "do you actually believe in it". If the answer is yes, then you are a theist. If no, an atheist.

Do I actually believe in the existence of God? If I have said probably, I have said that I am not absolutely certain of God, but I do think God is likely. Therefore, in a sense, your question, as vague as it is, does not clear up anything.

Let's say that my belief in God is like a numberline between -10 to 10, the positives being the degree of 'God probably exist', and the negatives being the degrees of 'God probably doesn't exist' with 10 and -10 being the absolutes. Where, then, would 'Atheist' starts and 'Theist' ends.

[Person012345]

I believe in God because:

a) Every time I pray for something, it happens, not like things that I could easily buy of course, more like simple things like surviving things I'm not sure I would survive or guidance through life changing decisions, in which I end up making the right decision.

So, god thinks that you are so special that whilst millions of people are crying out for help every day because they're starving, whilst people are in hopeless situations, people who are suffering and dying and praying to god for help and mercy, he says "screw them" so that he can help you out with your first-world problem instead?

I find that to perhaps be a tad arrogant. What is it that makes you so special?

b) If I didn't believe in him and it turns out he exists, I would probably end up in hell, therefore that would suck.

Same goes if you don't believe in a variety of other gods. Remember, we only believe in one fewer than you do. You haven't insured yourself against anything really. Additionally, I don't believe in worshiping maniacal psychopaths even if they threaten to torture me.

c) To totally reject atheism is idiotic, I accept the fact that if I die, I might rot in the ground.

"rejecting atheism" is a questionable phrase. Atheism isn't a worldview that you can "reject" so much, you can just believe in a god. But I understand what you're saying.

[Person012345]

That depends on how probably you think it.

Hypotheticals don't work that well, because the question that needs to be asked is "do you actually believe in it". If the answer is yes, then you are a theist. If no, an atheist.

Do I actually believe in the existence of God? If I have said probably, I have said that I am not absolutely certain of God, but I do think God is likely. Therefore, in a sense, your question, as vague as it is, does not clear up anything.

No. It's not a question of whether your certain of god. It's whether you believe in him or not. It's not a vague question. I am not certain that god does not exist. I just don't believe in him.

Let's say that my belief in God is like a numberline between -10 to 10, the positives being the degree of 'God probably exist', and the negatives being the degrees of 'God probably doesn't exist' with 10 and -10 being the absolutes. Where, then, would 'Atheist' starts and 'Theist' ends.

But it isn't. You either believe or don't believe. Knowledge is a sliding scale, belief is not.

[Demphor]

I believe in God because:

a) Every time I pray for something, it happens, not like things that I could easily buy of course, more like simple things like surviving things I'm not sure I would survive or guidance through life changing decisions, in which I end up making the right decision.

So, god thinks that you are so special that whilst millions of people are crying out for help every day because they're starving, whilst people are in hopeless situations, people who are suffering and dying and praying to god for help and mercy, he says "screw them" so that he can help you out with your first-world problem instead?

I find that to perhaps be a tad arrogant. What is it that makes you so special?

b) If I didn't believe in him and it turns out he exists, I would probably end up in hell, therefore that would suck.

Same goes if you don't believe in a variety of other gods. Remember, we only believe in one fewer than you do. You haven't insured yourself against anything really. Additionally, I don't believe in worshiping maniacal psychopaths even if they threaten to torture me.

c) To totally reject atheism is idiotic, I accept the fact that if I die, I might rot in the ground.

"rejecting atheism" is a questionable phrase. Atheism isn't a worldview that you can "reject" so much, you can just believe in a god. But I understand what you're saying.

So, god thinks that you are so special that whilst millions of people are crying out for help every day because they're starving, whilst people are in hopeless situations, people who are suffering and dying and praying to god for help and mercy, he says "screw them" so that he can help you out with your first-world problem instead?

Its only a minute of my time for every thing I ask him, I've only asked him a couple times.

Same goes if you don't believe in a variety of other gods. Remember, we only believe in one fewer than you do. You haven't insured yourself against anything really. Additionally, I don't believe in worshiping maniacal psychopaths even if they threaten to torture me.

Well if it turns out God is Jewish, Islamic or anything else. Or even if he doesn't exist, ah well, I tried.

[DesAnges]

b) If I didn't believe in him and it turns out he exists, I would probably end up in hell, therefore that would suck.

I'm not sure God is happy that his followers turns him into some kind of betting game. Maybe that's just me.

Considering gambling is spoken against in the Bible (I believe), I would agree.

[Demphor]

I'm not sure God is happy that his followers turns him into some kind of betting game. Maybe that's just me.

Considering gambling is spoken against in the Bible (I believe), I would agree.

I'm not betting on his existence, just it would be awful if I didn't and went to Hell.

[Twilliamson]

You didn't really answer my question. "Nothing is certain" really doesn't tell me why you believe in god. Do you believe in god because you like the idea of god?

I believe in God because:

a) Every time I pray for something, it happens, not like things that I could easily buy of course, more like simple things like surviving things I'm not sure I would survive or guidance through life changing decisions, in which I end up making the right decision.
b) If I didn't believe in him and it turns out he exists, I would probably end up in hell, therefore that would suck.A
c) To totally reject atheism is idiotic, I accept the fact that if I die, I might rot in the ground.

A I nt so sure about that. If all you need to do is pray and get what you need and you know what the right descisions are the world would be a way better case however that not really the case.
B You do realise for that you would have to covert to every religion and pray to every god in order to make sure you have a good "afterlife"
C At least you not one of those people that says the god has to exist and all that doesn't belive in God is dumb. So i can resepect you for that

[Person012345]

Its only a minute of my time for every thing I ask him, I've only asked him a couple times.

That doesn't really answer the question again. Is god omnipotent? If so it really shouldn't matter how much time it is or how minor. The fact is, you're claiming he chooses to help you with your decisions whilst allowing countless people to remain in terrible suffering despite their sincere belief and desperation.

I personally think it's confirmation bias that's going on here - you remember the hits because "oh wow how amazing was that", and forget the misses because why would you remember them.

Intercessory prayer has been scientifically demonstrated to have no greater success rate than random chance.

Same goes if you don't believe in a variety of other gods. Remember, we only believe in one fewer than you do. You haven't insured yourself against anything really. Additionally, I don't believe in worshiping maniacal psychopaths even if they threaten to torture me.

Well if it turns out God is Jewish, Islamic or anything else. Or even if he doesn't exist, ah well, I tried.

Not really.What if there is a god who isn't the biblical one, who really fucking hates you worshiping other gods? He can deal with people who don't believe he exists, but he can't stand people who kiss the ass of some other god? Then you're going to hell and I'm not.

[Nouvelle-Albion]

Do I actually believe in the existence of God? If I have said probably, I have said that I am not absolutely certain of God, but I do think God is likely. Therefore, in a sense, your question, as vague as it is, does not clear up anything.

No. It's not a question of whether your certain of god. It's whether you believe in him or not. It's not a vague question. I am not certain that god exists. I just don't believe in him.

Easy, if I am not wholly certain of him, I do not wholly believe him. Suppose you are right, you are not certain that God exist, you just don't believe that he exist- that disbelief in God, however, is not a complete disbelief in him, because you are not entirely certain if he doesn't exist in the first place. To use a common example, I am not certain there is no Fae-folks in this world, but I don't think their existence is very plausible, however, this disbelief is not a complete disbelief, but a partial one. Therefore, you mistakenly attribute knowledge and belief as two seperate and unrelated categories.

Let's say that my belief in God is like a numberline between -10 to 10, the positives being the degree of 'God probably exist', and the negatives being the degrees of 'God probably doesn't exist' with 10 and -10 being the absolutes. Where, then, would 'Atheist' starts and 'Theist' ends.

But it isn't. You either believe or don't believe. Knowledge is a sliding scale, belief is not.

Yes it is, there are degrees of belief and disbelief- I don't believe in the Loch Ness Monster, but I would not discount it altogether- that is to say, I believe that the Loch Ness Monster probably doesn't exist. In that sense, I would rate myself around -7 concerning the Loch Ness Monster on the hypothetical scale of belief and disbelief. I believe also that God probably does exist, so I would rate myself around 2 or 3 on that same scale. The question still holds, am I an atheist or not?

[Demphor]

I believe in God because:

a) Every time I pray for something, it happens, not like things that I could easily buy of course, more like simple things like surviving things I'm not sure I would survive or guidance through life changing decisions, in which I end up making the right decision.
b) If I didn't believe in him and it turns out he exists, I would probably end up in hell, therefore that would suck.A
c) To totally reject atheism is idiotic, I accept the fact that if I die, I might rot in the ground.

A I nt so sure about that. If all you need to do is pray and get what you need and you know what the right descisions are the world would be a way better case however that not really the case.
B You do realise for that you would have to covert to every religion and pray to every god in order to make sure you have a good "afterlife"
C At least you not one of those people that says the god has to exist and all that doesn't belive in God is dumb. So i can resepect you for that

B You do realise for that you would have to covert to every religion and pray to every god in order to make sure you have a good "afterlife"

Got me there, thats a great point, but I'm not gonna convert to everything, thats just a waste of time.

At least you not one of those people that says the god has to exist and all that doesn't belive in God is dumb. So i can resepect you for that



I'm totally fine with people being atheist, I don't like it when atheists call Catholicism or any religion for that matter a cult, and religious leaders, 'cult masters'.

It's happened before

[Stovokor]

However I also would not say that IQ is the relative measurement and comparison of general knowledge to that of overall society but rather the relative comparison of people's IQ to a perceived average IQ of which the results of this comparison are compared to society in order to find societie's average IQ as a whole.

Do you have any idea how complicated this statement is?

It's not very, I've been forced to do worse in some of the introductions of my work, on the bright side this isn't a paragraph.

[Person012345]

No. It's not a question of whether your certain of god. It's whether you believe in him or not. It's not a vague question. I am not certain that god exists. I just don't believe in him.

Easy, if I am not wholly certain of him, I do not wholly believe him. Suppose you are right, you are not certain that God exist, you just don't believe that he exist- that disbelief in God, however, is not a complete disbelief in him, because you are not entirely certain if he doesn't exist in the first place. To use a common example, I am not certain there is no Fae-folks in this world, but I don't think their existence is very plausible, however, this disbelief is not a complete disbelief, but a partial one. Therefore, you mistakenly attribute knowledge and belief as two seperate and unrelated categories.

Not at all. I don't have "complete disbelief". You don't need "complete disbelief". Complete disbelief would be positively stating that "god does not exist", which is not what most atheists are saying. You are confusing knowledge and belief, they ARE separate categories.

Yes it is, there are degrees of belief and disbelief- I don't believe in the Loch Ness Monster, but I would not discount it altogether- that is to say, I believe that the Loch Ness Monster probably doesn't exist.

Right. So you don't believe in the lock ness monster. You just don't know it. You are an agnostic (referring to knowledge) alocknessmonsterist (referring to belief).

In that sense, I would rate myself around -7 concerning the Loch Ness Monster on the hypothetical scale of belief and disbelief. I believe also that God probably does exist, so I would rate myself around 2 or 3 on that same scale. The question still holds, am I an atheist or not?

You see, again, you're confusing the two. You may be around -7 on a scale of how certain you are. That pertains to knowledge. Whether you believe or not is something seperate. On the specific scale you're using, I can assume that 0 is the point where you switch from belief to disbelief.

You see, belief occurs when you believe that a claim has met it's burden of proof. Before that, you will disbelieve it. After than, you will believe it. However, it can meet it's burden of proof without being 100% certain.

[Transhuman Proteus]

You're talking about living in the most devout places on earth. You've dismissed the Islamic majoroty nations because you don't like Islam, and you are skipping other more negative nations that are more highly devout in order to pick the US.

I dismissed the Muslim nations because they're places where Jews tend to be beheaded, but nice assumption. I wouldn't considering living in most secular Muslims societies in the Middle East, either. I already stated I'd have no problem with Vatican City, and I'd probably get along fine in Bulgaria and other more religious, European nations. These are facile and fallacious points.

I like you Jewcrew. You got a nice way of ignoring what is being said in order to make you point.

You have a post where you talk about how religion doesn't impede human progress and talk about the benifits, like religious folk being happier and all that.

Now we can look at the devout nations, nations where religion is really very central to society. Who really cares if you'd be happy living in the Vatican or the Bible belt or that is the only reason you wouldn't live in those countries (though I gather Iran has the biggest Jewish population in the middle east outside of Israel).

We can see a long list of places much more devout than the US. Typically the more devout the nation the worse it is, or the religion is impeding progress at getting out of that state. It never seems to be helping. That really is the point. Whether you'd be happy living there really don't matter, since we can measure the current quality of those nations in many more ways than "would Jewcrew like it there?".

And did you post some sources on religious people being happier? And was it any religious person, or only a certain religion that makes you happy? Buddhists often seem pretty happy, some of the... more guilt ridden, self hating Christian ones don't seem at all happy.

It does change the validity, unless you wish to admit the most devout nations often aren't great places and their over adherence to religion and letting it have to much control over their society is a major component in their condition.

Since your position only takes in two factors when the world is run by numerous factors, no, it still doesn't change the validity. I would have zero problem living in devout Christian societies.

Any devout Christian society? Any devout Christian society at all? And since the original comment can be traced back to you talking about religion in general... Islam doesn't count.

And naturally there is more factors than that, though I am guessing you are disagreeing with the overall point being overly devout really isn't helping these nations progress out of there less than good status.

[Twilliamson]

A I nt so sure about that. If all you need to do is pray and get what you need and you know what the right descisions are the world would be a way better case however that not really the case.
B You do realise for that you would have to covert to every religion and pray to every god in order to make sure you have a good "afterlife"
C At least you not one of those people that says the god has to exist and all that doesn't belive in God is dumb. So i can resepect you for that

B You do realise for that you would have to covert to every religion and pray to every god in order to make sure you have a good "afterlife"

Got me there, thats a great point, but I'm not gonna convert to everything, thats just a waste of time.

At least you not one of those people that says the god has to exist and all that doesn't belive in God is dumb. So i can resepect you for that



I'm totally fine with people being atheist, I don't like it when atheists call Catholicism or any religion for that matter a cult, and religious leaders, 'cult masters'.

It's happened before

I fine with people who belive in God to as long as they don't try to force their religion on me. How you know people who calls religion a cult, i wouldn't go that far. Some people do belive in their religion to much and their whole lives become about religion and nothing else but that their problem not the religions so i understand why you don't like that

[Transhuman Proteus]

I'm sure you've considered that it probably isn't God that's guiding you and it's more than likely yourself?

Yes, I've made decisions on my own.

But in other cases when I don't know what to do, pray when I have the chance.

I usually pray alone or in Church.

And God doesn't guide me through EVERYTHING of course, just things I ask him to.

Perhaps you are actually guiding yourself. Have more faith in you (its ok to still believe).

[Tlaceceyaya]

You didn't really answer my question. "Nothing is certain" really doesn't tell me why you believe in god. Do you believe in god because you like the idea of god?

I believe in God because:

a) Every time I pray for something, it happens, not like things that I could easily buy of course, more like simple things like surviving things I'm not sure I would survive or guidance through life changing decisions, in which I end up making the right decision.
b) If I didn't believe in him and it turns out he exists, I would probably end up in hell, therefore that would suck.
c) To totally reject atheism is idiotic, I accept the fact that if I die, I might rot in the ground.

1: Post hoc ergo propter hoc. Perform some double blind studies on this and come back to me.
2: Ah, pascal's wager. Already addressed, I believe.
3: Actually, you could be cremated. Depends on what you want. And whether or not you die in a place where your will can be carried out.

[Person012345]

There are also secular ideas on how there could be an afterlife.

[Nouvelle-Albion]

Easy, if I am not wholly certain of him, I do not wholly believe him. Suppose you are right, you are not certain that God exist, you just don't believe that he exist- that disbelief in God, however, is not a complete disbelief in him, because you are not entirely certain if he doesn't exist in the first place. To use a common example, I am not certain there is no Fae-folks in this world, but I don't think their existence is very plausible, however, this disbelief is not a complete disbelief, but a partial one. Therefore, you mistakenly attribute knowledge and belief as two seperate and unrelated categories.

Not at all. I don't have "complete disbelief". You don't need "complete disbelief". Complete disbelief would be positively stating that "god does not exist", which is not what most atheists are saying. You are confusing knowledge and belief, they ARE separate categories.

Belief and Certainty are seperate and interconnected categories- as I have said, I do not wholly believe in God because I am not wholly certain of him. How can one wholly believe in something that one is not certain of. Most people's belief in the certainty of something depends on their knowledge of the certainty of that something. In addition, you say taht you don't need complete disbelief to be an atheist- that much I can gather from your other post- however, what degree of belief of disbelief should satisfy your definition of an Atheist?

Yes it is, there are degrees of belief and disbelief- I don't believe in the Loch Ness Monster, but I would not discount it altogether- that is to say, I believe that the Loch Ness Monster probably doesn't exist.

Right. So you don't believe in the lock ness monster. You just don't know it. You are an agnostic (referring to knowledge) alocknessmonsterist (referring to belief).

No, I don't believe in the Loch Ness Monster (and for the love of god, it is Loch, not Lock) to the degree that I am certain to his non-existence. Since I do not know whether Nessie is, in fact, real, but that she probably isn't, I believe that she probably does not exist. We are arguing over unfortunate phrasing and lack of clairty on my part.

In that sense, I would rate myself around -7 concerning the Loch Ness Monster on the hypothetical scale of belief and disbelief. I believe also that God probably does exist, so I would rate myself around 2 or 3 on that same scale. The question still holds, am I an atheist or not?

You see, again, you're confusing the two. You may be around -7 on a scale of how certain you are. That pertains to knowledge. Whether you believe or not is something seperate. On the specific scale you're using, I can assume that 0 is the point where you switch from belief to disbelief.
You see, belief occurs when you believe that a claim has met it's burden of proof. Before that, you will disbelieve it. After than, you will believe it. However, it can meet it's burden of proof without being 100% certain.

This scale, likewise, it quite unfortunately phrased, upon reconsideration, because even in my disbelief in Nessie, I do not discount her altogether, so, that would mean that I hold some form of belief in her, just that I consider her highly unlikely, so, it should be better imagined as a numberline from 0 to 20, zero being complete disbelief and 20 being complete belief. Therefore, this new scale measure how much one believes in the likelihood of something- so, to go back to the example of Nessie- I do not believe that Nessie's existence is very plausible, so I would say that I would rank 3, I do think that there may be a God, and it is probable, so I believe that God's existence is probable, but that this probable is so low as to only warrant a 12 or, at the most, 13 on this scale.

So, the question still stands, where does Atheism starts and theism ends.

[Tlaceceyaya]

There are also secular ideas on how there could be an afterlife.

And all of those are as worthless as religious ones because they lack evidence.

[Person012345]

There are also secular ideas on how there could be an afterlife.

And all of those are as worthless as religious ones because they lack evidence.

Of course, the point is just because you're an atheist doesn't mean you have to believe that "you" just rot in the ground.

[Person012345]

So, the question still stands, where does Atheism starts and theism ends.

I already answered. On your example scale, 0.

That only applies if you stick rigidly to the scale though, but since your scale is extremely ill defined...

[Nouvelle-Albion]

There are also secular ideas on how there could be an afterlife.

And all of those are as worthless as religious ones because they lack evidence.

I am sure they do have evidence, you chose just to ignore them, or approach them with the a priori opinion that they are all rubbish.

[Person012345]

And all of those are as worthless as religious ones because they lack evidence.

I am sure they do have evidence, you chose just to ignore them, or approach them with the a priori opinion that they are all rubbish.

They don't. There is one that I believe makes some sense hypothetically, however it does lack evidence for it's 2 central premises in reality.