Is There a God?

[Stovokor]

Of course you would, it's only logical since you're on the other side of the debate with Xathranaar, however as I said the link was meant as a springboard, which means to be used as a gateway to further investigation of this topic through the sources provided, after all wiki articles are by nature unreliable since they are editable by anyone, do not go under peer review like academic research and most importantly even when attempted to be created to the best of care to the materials sourced they are only a second hand interpretation of their sources.

Less to do with my side of the debate (though I will admit that I likely have some bias), more to do with my issues with IQ. You ever taken a psychiatrist's IQ test? I have. Most of it is general knowledge. Average IQ was increasing at one point because general knowledge was increasing with better education and media. IQ scores are weighted so that 100 is the average no matter what. IQ would be better described as a relative measurement comparing your general knowledge to that of overall society, rather than a measurement of intelligence.

A measurement based on education level, however, is actually useful, as this is actually application of intelligence and therefore measurable. These studies seem to find no connection between intelligence and religion, which frankly makes sense.

True, however the wiki article(which I stress again I don't like quoting from) claims that "Different studies available show contrasting conclusions." Which granted can be used to support the idea that education has no link to religiosity, however it can also be used as support for I.Q. tests to be more superior to educational attainment since all countries have varying standards of and on education. I do agree with you that using educational attainment appears to be a better research perspective since it's an institution which is created for teaching and requires advancement, however someone could claim that such advancement doesn't always promise intellectual growth.

However I also would not say that IQ is the relative measurement and comparison of general knowledge to that of overall society but rather the relative comparison of people's IQ to a perceived average IQ of which the results of this comparison are compared to society in order to find societie's average IQ as a whole. Not arguing here, merely wanting to reword that a bit since I think this is what you were going for.

[Camelza]

I think you have that think which if a guy from another religion acts well according to his own beliefs is sent to heaven ..or is this a myth?

More of a misunderstanding than a myth.

But please ask this question in the Judaism Discussion Thread, and I'll explain it to you. viewtopic.php?f=20&t=195852&start=750

I'll do that.

[Jewcrew]

Jews don't proselytize (it is a sin) and actually believe that other religions aren't wrong. Even if I were to come up with such an argument, I would never under circumstances vocalize or write/type it anywhere.

I'm not asking you to proselytize. I'm asking you for to explain yourself. And you are being evasive.

You say you have a reason, but that it won't make sense to me. I don't care. Tell me anyway. By your own account it won't be proselytizing because it has no hope of converting me, right?

My reasons for believing in G-d, or any religion, for that matter, won't make sense to an Atheist. Another part of the problem is that there is no one single reason, but many reasons that changed me from an Atheist into a theist over a period of years. I spent time as an Atheist, then agnostic, then decided to believe, then became a Conservative Jew and have slowly become more religious and followed more commandments as time has gone on. Nothing I say will make sense to you, and I wouldn't even be able to go back and figure out what all these little reasons were. My most recent reason that definitely won't make sense is that when I went to the Kotel (Western wall of the Temple Mount), I felt G-d's presence and His disappointment in me for the way I'd been blaming Him for what's wrong in my life, which I had no right to do. Such a deeply religious experience will not make any sense to an Atheist, and no doubt you'll find some explanation for it if you try hard enough. I'll reject your explanation because I went there with no expectations that I'd get any such response from Him.

I will not write something that would cause a Hindu to considering believing in the Jewish concept of the Creator because doing so would be a sin. There are two classes of sins in Judaism; sins against G-d and sins against people. Judaism sees sins against people as worse than sins against G-d, and I would be committing a sin against a person if a Hindu were to ever read such an explanation. I will not do it under any circumstances.

[Xathranaar]

I'm not asking you to proselytize. I'm asking you for to explain yourself. And you are being evasive.

You say you have a reason, but that it won't make sense to me. I don't care. Tell me anyway. By your own account it won't be proselytizing because it has no hope of converting me, right?

My reasons for believing in G-d, or any religion, for that matter, won't make sense to an Atheist. Another part of the problem is that there is no one single reason, but many reasons that changed me from an Atheist into a theist over a period of years. I spent time as an Atheist, then agnostic, then decided to believe, then became a Conservative Jew and have slowly become more religious and followed more commandments as time has gone on. Nothing I say will make sense to you, and I wouldn't even be able to go back and figure out what all these little reasons were.

Would you stop telling me that I won't understand your reasons, and tell me what they are? I get it, you're self-conscious because they probably seem incredibly subjective and irrational. But leading me on like this is tiresome. Don't say you have a reason if you're not willing to play-ball.

My most recent reason that definitely won't make sense is that when I went to the Kotel (Western wall of the Temple Mount), I felt G-d's presence and His disappointment in me for the way I'd been blaming Him for what's wrong in my life, which I had no right to do.

Makes complete sense to me. I've done that. Well, not the Kotel bit, but the rest of it.

Such a deeply religious experience will not make any sense to an Atheist, and no doubt you'll find some explanation for it if you try hard enough. I'll reject your explanation because I went there with no expectations that I'd get any such response from Him.

Rejecting in advance an explanation you do not know is dishonest. This is the very definition of a closed mind.

I will not write something that would cause a Hindu to considering believing in the Jewish concept of the Creator because doing so would be a sin. There are two classes of sins in Judaism; sins against G-d and sins against people. Judaism sees sins against people as worse than sins against G-d, and I would be committing a sin against a person if a Hindu were to ever read such an explanation. I will not do it under any circumstances.

I don't much care. I was simply trying to get you to deliver on your, "explanations that I will not understand." Which, of the ones you have given, have a 100% understanding ratio by me.


I have to call it a night. Please try to be less dictatorial in your view of what us atheists must be like.

[Jewcrew]

However I also would not say that IQ is the relative measurement and comparison of general knowledge to that of overall society but rather the relative comparison of people's IQ to a perceived average IQ of which the results of this comparison are compared to society in order to find societie's average IQ as a whole.

Do you have any idea how complicated this statement is?

[Person012345]

Jewcrew, I would just point out that not accepting something as valid is not the same as not understanding it. If you can understand it, then it is arrogant to assume that others cannot. If you accept it, then that's not a reason not to tell others. Maybe they'll accept it, maybe they won't, that's how debates work.

[Jewcrew]

My reasons for believing in G-d, or any religion, for that matter, won't make sense to an Atheist. Another part of the problem is that there is no one single reason, but many reasons that changed me from an Atheist into a theist over a period of years. I spent time as an Atheist, then agnostic, then decided to believe, then became a Conservative Jew and have slowly become more religious and followed more commandments as time has gone on. Nothing I say will make sense to you, and I wouldn't even be able to go back and figure out what all these little reasons were.

Would you stop telling me that I won't understand your reasons, and tell me what they are? I get it, you're self-conscious because they probably seem incredibly subjective and irrational. But leading me on like this is tiresome. Don't say you have a reason if you're not willing to play-ball.

My most recent reason that definitely won't make sense is that when I went to the Kotel (Western wall of the Temple Mount), I felt G-d's presence and His disappointment in me for the way I'd been blaming Him for what's wrong in my life, which I had no right to do.

Makes complete sense to me. I've done that. Well, not the Kotel bit, but the rest of it.

Such a deeply religious experience will not make any sense to an Atheist, and no doubt you'll find some explanation for it if you try hard enough. I'll reject your explanation because I went there with no expectations that I'd get any such response from Him.

Rejecting in advance an explanation you do not know is dishonest. This is the very definition of a closed mind.

I reject it in advance because I've already tried to rationalize the scientific reasons and disagree with them, as none that I've come across or have looked into have so far made sense based on the circumstances. I know that I'd disagree with any reason because the experience is far to important to my beliefs, and also my general well being, for any reason to override the experience.

I will not write something that would cause a Hindu to considering believing in the Jewish concept of the Creator because doing so would be a sin. There are two classes of sins in Judaism; sins against G-d and sins against people. Judaism sees sins against people as worse than sins against G-d, and I would be committing a sin against a person if a Hindu were to ever read such an explanation. I will not do it under any circumstances.

I don't much care. I was simply trying to get you to deliver on your, "explanations that I will not understand." Which, of the ones you have given, have a 100% understanding ratio by me.

That actually surprises me.

I have to call it a night. Please try to be less dictatorial in your view of what us atheists must be like.

I dislike talking about my reasons why and probably will not change this. For one, it comes dangerously close to proselytizing. For another, I don't appreciate the mocking I've received from Atheists on this forum.

[Nordengrund]

Someone needs to use the Christian Apologetics in this thread.

[Person012345]

Someone needs to use the Christian Apologetics in this thread.

Every apologetic I've ever heard was terrible.

Why don't you have a crack at one. I've already shown why the ontological argument as stated earlier is bad (the proposition to be proved is implicitly assumed in the premise - circular reasoning).

[The De Danann Nation]

Numbers 31:13-18.This chapter of the Bible pretty much ruined the whole book for me.It just seems really scary that Christians,Jews,and Muslims find it comforting in believing that this "benevolent" God(who is the same one who authorized these evil acts)is watching over us.

[Nordengrund]

Well, I do find God benevolent, but misunderstood. The apologetics is the logical proof of Christianity. God in the OT is different than the God of the NT

[Ifreann]

God in the OT is different than the God of the NT

A lot of Christians disagree.

[Person012345]

The apologetics is the logical proof of Christianity.

They're actually attempts to prove christianity logically, but they universally fail, usually due to logical fallacies or false assumptions.

[Person012345]

God in the OT is different than the God of the NT

Malachi 3:6
I the Lord do not change.

[The New World Oceania]

God in the OT is different than the God of the NT

Malachi 3:6
I the Lord do not change.

You're wrong, Sire Person. The God of the Old Testament is Jehovah, or more commonly, The Christ. Jesus, presumably. The God of the New Testament is the Heavenly Father, or most basically- God.

They are different, indeed.
.מ.ש.ל

[Ifreann]

Malachi 3:6
I the Lord do not change.

You're wrong, Sire Person. The God of the Old Testament is Jehovah, or more commonly, The Christ. Jesus, presumably. The God of the New Testament is the Heavenly Father, or most basically- God.

They are different, indeed.
.מ.ש.ל

You seem to have that backwards.

[Person012345]

Malachi 3:6
I the Lord do not change.

You're wrong, Sire Person. The God of the Old Testament is Jehovah, or more commonly, The Christ. Jesus, presumably. The God of the New Testament is the Heavenly Father, or most basically- God.

They are different, indeed.
.מ.ש.ל

What the hell sect are you part of? I'm not familiar with any christian sect that claims that the god of the OT is literally a different entity than that of the NT (although I'm sure they exist, that's not what I understand to be mainstream christianity).

[Person012345]

And I'm talking about god, not jesus (who was the son of god) or the holy spirit, even though most christians take them all to be the same entity as well (that's what the trinity is).

[The New World Oceania]

You're wrong, Sire Person. The God of the Old Testament is Jehovah, or more commonly, The Christ. Jesus, presumably. The God of the New Testament is the Heavenly Father, or most basically- God.

They are different, indeed.
.מ.ש.ל

What the hell sect are you part of? I'm not familiar with any christian sect that claims that the god of the OT is literally a different entity than that of the NT (although I'm sure they exist, that's not what I understand to be mainstream christianity).

I think Nationstates has already pointed out each and every one of the flaws of mainstream Christianity. My sect's in my signature.

[Person012345]

I think Nationstates has already pointed out each and every one of the flaws of mainstream Christianity. My sect's in my signature.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_se ... t_movement

>.>'

I'm assuming that's what LDS stands for. They're not all that common here I think.

[Chadacian]

God exists.

[Person012345]

God exists.

Kinda doesn't though.

[Tlaceceyaya]

God exists.

Prove it.

[Chadacian]

What laws do you use to prove certain points in this world?

[Person012345]

What laws do you use to prove certain points in this world?

Could you rephrase the question?