Is There a God?

[Magmia]

I'm curious, Atheists, why is it so important to you that people not believe in G-d? You're more insistent and argumentative than any missionary I've ever met. You proselytize more than a devout evangelical and now you're even making Atheism camps where you teach children to disrespect religion.

If someone is trying to convince you that G-d exists or to follow a certain religion, that's one thing. It certainly can be annoying; on the other hand it can also be rather fun. But in more recent years, Atheism has been starting to have more in common with a loose religion than with a lack of belief.

Listen to the Christians as they try to force their non-scientifically beliefs into science classes. Listen to the evangelicals who believe that we don’t need to do anything about the environment we live in because Jesus is going to come back any day now. Listen to the incredibly hateful speeches by pastors in megachurches.

It seems to me that religion in general is an impediment to the progress of humanity. As such, I firmly believe that we would be much better off if we used all our energy on progressing as a species rather than praying to a god who never seem to lift a finger.

Personally, were I living in the USA, I would be terrified by the resurgence of religion and the way it has started getting involved politics. And, in a way, I believe that the atheists are getting more vocal in response to this.

1. It is stupidity, pure and simple.
2. I myself, both an American and a Christian, am terrified by this. This is when religion becomes an intolerable danger, when it is mixed with politics.

[Ereria]

It is, but many people think he has to guard their ass 7/24 so they stopped beliving. God created you, but he never told you that was going to be humans guardian angle. He just created the first two humans, the universe and said live. People expected to live a king like life where everybody is happy, but that isnt the point. Humans have to help humans, not expect god to clean after the stupid things we did.

So yes, I believe in god 100% But I still believe in Science too. In my religion (Islam) Science is a good thing. I always support Science.

[Xathranaar]

Since you brought up statistics, I may as well ask:

If I were to rank all the nations of the earth from most devout to least (that is to say, lowest percentage of citizens reporting non-belief to highest), which end of that spectrum would you like to live on?

Because I have a fair notion that if you really think about this question you'll realize what is wrong with the above argument.

I would have zero fear of living in Vatican City.

This is a transparent ploy to avoid addressing the thrust of the question. I can't help but wonder what you're afraid of that you should use such a maneuver?

[Magmia]

It is, but many people think he has to guard their ass 7/24 so they stopped beliving. God created you, but he never told you that was going to be humans guardian angle. He just created the first two humans, the universe and said live. People expected to live a king like life where everybody is happy, but that isnt the point. Humans have to help humans, not expect god to clean after the stupid things we did.

So yes, I believe in god 100% But I still believe in Science too. In my religion (Islam) Science is a good thing. I always support Science.

Well stated

[Mavorpen]

It is, but many people think he has to guard their ass 7/24 so they stopped beliving. God created you, but he never told you that was going to be humans guardian angle. He just created the first two humans, the universe and said live. People expected to live a king like life where everybody is happy, but that isnt the point. Humans have to help humans, not expect god to clean after the stupid things we did.

So yes, I believe in god 100% But I still believe in Science too. In my religion (Islam) Science is a good thing. I always support Science.

Well stated

How? He basically admitted God is an asshole that doesn't care about us.

[Xathranaar]

Listen to the Christians as they try to force their non-scientifically beliefs into science classes. Listen to the evangelicals who believe that we don’t need to do anything about the environment we live in because Jesus is going to come back any day now. Listen to the incredibly hateful speeches by pastors in megachurches.

It seems to me that religion in general is an impediment to the progress of humanity. As such, I firmly believe that we would be much better off if we used all our energy on progressing as a species rather than praying to a god who never seem to lift a finger.

Personally, were I living in the USA, I would be terrified by the resurgence of religion and the way it has started getting involved politics. And, in a way, I believe that the atheists are getting more vocal in response to this.

1. It is stupidity, pure and simple.
2. I myself, both an American and a Christian, am terrified by this. This is when religion becomes an intolerable danger, when it is mixed with politics.

Cookies. Cookies for you, and all like you.

[Jewcrew]

I would have zero fear of living in Vatican City.

This is a transparent ploy to avoid addressing the thrust of the question. I can't help but wonder what you're afraid of that you should use such a maneuver?

It wasn't a ploy. It was a point. If you were to rank all the nations on Earth from most devout to least devout, at the top would be Muslim nations that I would never consider living in for reasons that involve Islam and Muslims, and not religion in general. The ranking also assumes that religion is the only issue, not other issues like economics, crime, stability and governmental systems. If you ranked just the Western world, which would be a more honest ranking system, places like America and Vatican City would be at the top, and I'd have no problems living in these countries at all. I would have no problem living in the Bible Belt, Texas, Florida or any other religious areas of the USA. The bottom of your list would include places like Russia and North Korea, which I wouldn't want to live in at all.

In short, the question that you posed is facile.

[Transhuman Proteus]

I'm curious, Atheists, why is it so important to you that people not believe in G-d? You're more insistent and argumentative than any missionary I've ever met. You proselytize more than a devout evangelical and now you're even making Atheism camps where you teach children to disrespect religion.

Oh? I don't remember ever having an Atheist knock on my door, or preaching outside the local post office. Or having their own radio stations playing limp wristed Christ rock. Or picketing a funeral...

Or having a political platform like that of the Texas GOP explaining their policies are in order to enforce the Judeo-Christian principles of the one true God.

And even making Atheist camps... those fiends! Don't they know that is going to far, I mean there are no religious camps, right? I guess the boy scouts of American don't flavour the minds of their scouts with Christian messages etc. Yes, sucks to be an Athiest kid who wants to go to camp but doesn't want evengelising.

If someone is trying to convince you that G-d exists or to follow a certain religion, that's one thing. It certainly can be annoying; on the other hand it can also be rather fun. But in more recent years, Atheism has been starting to have more in common with a loose religion than with a lack of belief.

So basically - " I dislike people questioning my faith". In case you hadn't noticed - this is a debate forum. Theists want to come and argue there is a god they have to put up or suck it up.

And why do Atheists need to be vocal? Because you have politicians out there running around claiming there Anti-LGBT stances, or misogynistic policies, or etc are all god, all the time and all true. You don't speak out against that, then they succeed unopposed.

Why do Atheists need to be vocal? Because the other side has a powerful lobby and power base that want to base society and its laws on their fraked up view of religion. They need to be challanged. If they are saying "there is a God and it is our duty to do this" they need to be challenged with "there is no God unless you can prove it, and as such God has no place in our policy making".

Because religion can be harmful, depending on the flavor it encourages ignorance and gross misunderstandings - god damn those Atheists attempting to stop creationists peddling their non-science in the class rooms. Why can't they just shut up and mind their own business. Gosh!

I should also add that almost every Atheist I've ever met, online or offline, is a massive douche bag that I rarely, if ever, feel the need to respond to.

Yes, because that invalidates their arguments. And while on the subject, over the last few days I'd had a chance to see your debate style in action...

[Mavorpen]

I'm curious, Atheists, why is it so important to you that people not believe in G-d? You're more insistent and argumentative than any missionary I've ever met. You proselytize more than a devout evangelical and now you're even making Atheism camps where you teach children to disrespect religion.

Oh? I don't remember ever having an Atheist knock on my door, or preaching outside the local post office. Or having their own radio stations playing limp wristed Christ rock. Or picketing a funeral...

Or having a political platform like that of the Texas GOP explaining their policies are in order to enforce the Judeo-Christian principles of the one true God.

And even making Atheist camps... those fiends! Don't know that is going to far, I mean there are no religious camps, right? I guess the boy scouts of American don't flavour the minds of their scouts with Christian messages etc. Yes, sucks to be an Athiest kid who wants to go to camp but doesn't want evengelising.

If someone is trying to convince you that G-d exists or to follow a certain religion, that's one thing. It certainly can be annoying; on the other hand it can also be rather fun. But in more recent years, Atheism has been starting to have more in common with a loose religion than with a lack of belief.

So basically - " I dislike people questioning my faith". In case you hadn't noticed - this is a debate forum. Theists want to come and argue there is a god they have to put up or suck it up.

And why do Atheists need to be vocal? Because you have politicians out there running around claiming there Anti-LGBT stances, or misogynistic policies, or etc are all god, all the time and all true. You don't speak out against that, then they succeed unopposed.

Because religion can be harmful, depending on the flavor it encourages ignorance and gross misunderstandings - god damn those Atheists attempting to stop creationists peddling their non-science in the class rooms. Why can't they just shut up and mind their own business. Gosh!

Careful, he might rage at you and call you an asshole without actually providing an actual response.

[Xathranaar]

This is a transparent ploy to avoid addressing the thrust of the question. I can't help but wonder what you're afraid of that you should use such a maneuver?

It wasn't a ploy. It was a point. If you were to rank all the nations on Earth from most devout to least devout, at the top would be Muslim nations that I would never consider living in for reasons that involve Islam and Muslims, and not religion in general. The ranking also assumes that religion is the only issue, not other issues like economics, crime, stability and governmental systems. If you ranked just the Western world, which would be a more honest ranking system, places like America and Vatican City would be at the top, and I'd have no problems living in these countries at all. I would have no problem living in the Bible Belt, Texas, Florida or any other religious areas of the USA. The bottom would include places like Russia and North Korea, which I wouldn't want to live in at all.

In short, the question that you posed is facile.

Actually places like Romania would be at the top. And North Korea is probably the most devout nation on earth.

But since you mention the Bible Belt, isn't it odd that not only or these states the most religious, but indeed the most economically and socially deficient?

[Mavorpen]

It wasn't a ploy. It was a point. If you were to rank all the nations on Earth from most devout to least devout, at the top would be Muslim nations that I would never consider living in for reasons that involve Islam and Muslims, and not religion in general. The ranking also assumes that religion is the only issue, not other issues like economics, crime, stability and governmental systems. If you ranked just the Western world, which would be a more honest ranking system, places like America and Vatican City would be at the top, and I'd have no problems living in these countries at all. I would have no problem living in the Bible Belt, Texas, Florida or any other religious areas of the USA. The bottom of your list would include places like Russia and North Korea, which I wouldn't want to live in at all.

In short, the question that you posed is facile.

You think North Korea is more secular than America?

[Ancient Perstra]

I actually do believe there is.

[Jewcrew]

It wasn't a ploy. It was a point. If you were to rank all the nations on Earth from most devout to least devout, at the top would be Muslim nations that I would never consider living in for reasons that involve Islam and Muslims, and not religion in general. The ranking also assumes that religion is the only issue, not other issues like economics, crime, stability and governmental systems. If you ranked just the Western world, which would be a more honest ranking system, places like America and Vatican City would be at the top, and I'd have no problems living in these countries at all. I would have no problem living in the Bible Belt, Texas, Florida or any other religious areas of the USA. The bottom would include places like Russia and North Korea, which I wouldn't want to live in at all.

In short, the question that you posed is facile.

Actually places like Romania would be at the top. And North Korea is probably the most devout nation on earth.

Thank you for the corrections. It doesn't change the point or its validity.

But since you mention the Bible Belt, isn't it odd that not only or these states the most religious, but indeed the most economically and socially deficient?

Not really. There are complex issues with these areas that have little if anything to do with religion, the most significant one being that the Bible Belt is a far more rural area. Wealth tends to congregate in cities.

[Yumyumsuppertime]

I believe. Don't prove it, don't care to. It's simply how I've come to interpret the totality of the information that I've received through the experiences in my life. Others may choose to see it differently, and I am absolutely fine with that. I additionally suspect that God doesn't care all that much whether we believe or not.

[Jewcrew]

I believe. Don't prove it, don't care to. It's simply how I've come to interpret the totality of the information that I've received through the experiences in my life. Others may choose to see it differently, and I am absolutely fine with that. I additionally suspect that God doesn't care all that much whether we believe or not.

And Bingo was his name-o!

[Stovokor]

I believe. Don't prove it, don't care to. It's simply how I've come to interpret the totality of the information that I've received through the experiences in my life. Others may choose to see it differently, and I am absolutely fine with that. I additionally suspect that God doesn't care all that much whether we believe or not.

This is respectable if true but i'm still slightly disturbed by the lack of want to explore either side of the coin further, anyways good for you.

[Transhuman Proteus]

I disagree, however, that religion is an impediment to the progress of humanity. It has been very important in shaping cultures for thousands of years

Oh, it has definitely been important in shaping cultures. That doesn't automatically make it beneficial or rebut the statement it has been an impediment to the progress of humanity.

All those years in the middle ages under the anti-intellectualism and conservativeness of the Catholic Church eh? Definitely no impediment there.

Their anti-contraceptive work in places like Africa definitely doesn't have a negative impact on progress.

and polls show that more religious people are overall happier, less likely to be addicted to drugs, less likely to have children outside of wedlock, etc.. I'm not saying that blind faith is a good thing, I abhor such things. I just don't think the answer to complete lack of faith.

Sources, sources, sources.

Anyway, that answered my question. Feel free to go back to having a debate where no one will convince anyone of anything.

He says with a close mind, knowing he wont ever let himself be convinced of anything after admitting he doesn't respond to arguments regardless of whether they are valid or not because he doesn't think Atheists are nice enough.

[Transhuman Proteus]

I believe. Don't prove it, don't care to. It's simply how I've come to interpret the totality of the information that I've received through the experiences in my life. Others may choose to see it differently, and I am absolutely fine with that. I additionally suspect that God doesn't care all that much whether we believe or not.

And Bingo was his name-o!

"I'm not saying that blind faith is a good thing...", I can't remember who said that...

[New Socialist New Hampshire]

Is Barack Obama wearing pantyhose?

[Xathranaar]

Actually places like Romania would be at the top. And North Korea is probably the most devout nation on earth.

Thank you for the corrections. It doesn't change the point or its validity.

But since you mention the Bible Belt, isn't it odd that not only or these states the most religious, but indeed the most economically and socially deficient?

Not really. There are complex issues with these areas that have little if anything to do with religion, the most significant one being that the Bible Belt is a far more rural area. Wealth tends to congregate in cities.

So why did you bring up statistics then? Since you clearly understand what is wrong with such arguments?

You really can't have this both ways.

[Jewcrew]

He says with a close mind, knowing he wont ever let himself be convinced of anything after admitting he doesn't respond to arguments regardless of whether they are valid or not because he doesn't think Atheists are nice enough.

First, my opinion is yes, I believe in G-d; yes, there is doubt and He could very well not exist at all; yes, I've had complex discussions with atheists, agnostics, and people from several religions already that have given me all the information I need to come up with my answer. I also follow the 614th commandment, "Thou shalt not give Hitler a post-humous victor," and will not give up a belief in G-d unless I see overwhelming evidence that He couldn't possibly exist, which is something that science currently cannot and likely will never be able to do.

Second, I responded to someone that was being respectful and am willing to discuss with people who are respectful. I won't debate with an Atheist being a jerk anymore than I'll debate with a missionary or a member of a different stream of Judaism that is being a jerk.

[Transhuman Proteus]

Actually places like Romania would be at the top. And North Korea is probably the most devout nation on earth.

Thank you for the corrections. It doesn't change the point or its validity.

But since you mention the Bible Belt, isn't it odd that not only or these states the most religious, but indeed the most economically and socially deficient?

Not really. There are complex issues with these areas that have little if anything to do with religion, the most significant one being that the Bible Belt is a far more rural area. Wealth tends to congregate in cities.

You're talking about living in the most devout places on earth. You've dismissed the Islamic majoroty nations because you don't like Islam, and you are skipping other more negative nations that are more highly devout in order to pick the US.

It does change the validity, unless you wish to admit the most devout nations often aren't great places and their over adherence to religion and letting it have to much control over their society is a major component in their condition.

[Mavorpen]

I disagree, however, that religion is an impediment to the progress of humanity. It has been very important in shaping cultures for thousands of years

Oh, it has definitely been important in shaping cultures. That doesn't automatically make it beneficial or rebut the statement it has been an impediment to the progress of humanity.

All those years in the middle ages under the anti-intellectualism and conservativeness of the Catholic Church eh? Definitely no impediment there.

Their anti-contraceptive work in places like Africa definitely doesn't have a negative impact on progress.

and polls show that more religious people are overall happier, less likely to be addicted to drugs, less likely to have children outside of wedlock, etc.. I'm not saying that blind faith is a good thing, I abhor such things. I just don't think the answer to complete lack of faith.

Sources, sources, sources.

Anyway, that answered my question. Feel free to go back to having a debate where no one will convince anyone of anything.

He says with a close mind, knowing he wont ever let himself be convinced of anything after admitting he doesn't respond to arguments regardless of whether they are valid or not because he doesn't think Atheists are nice enough.

Apparently you can't be right if you're a big fat meanie.

[Jewcrew]

Thank you for the corrections. It doesn't change the point or its validity.


Not really. There are complex issues with these areas that have little if anything to do with religion, the most significant one being that the Bible Belt is a far more rural area. Wealth tends to congregate in cities.

So why did you bring up statistics then? Since you clearly understand what is wrong with such arguments?

You really can't have this both ways.

There are lies, damn lies and statistics. You may have a point on that. It would be interesting to see what Steven Levitt would say on the issue.

[Xathranaar]

I believe. Don't prove it, don't care to. It's simply how I've come to interpret the totality of the information that I've received through the experiences in my life. Others may choose to see it differently, and I am absolutely fine with that. I additionally suspect that God doesn't care all that much whether we believe or not.

And Bingo was his name-o!

This response implies that he chose correctly or somesuch... as though this is the demonstrably accurate approach.

Which is contrary to the message itself...

Very odd.


In any case, Yumyum:
I don't really see how I am in any way able to "choose" to see things one way or the other when it comes to matters of belief and reality. I mean, I grant that theists are somehow able to do so, but I have not the slightest idea how. I could no more believe in a god then I could suddenly decide the sky was green (outside of strikingly atypical weather, of course), how on earth do you achieve this?