Is There a God?

[Avenio]

Which raises the question, if we are that far removed from understanding god, why waste a thought on the subject?

Or why it would experience human emotions like jealousy, anger, pride, etc. For a god that is supposedly infinitely more intelligent than us and is both omnipotent and omniscient, the Bible sure does make it out like he's basically a human with magical powers.

[Mavorpen]

And if an alien intelligence smart than us doesn't exist, then it would apply either. But we don't know that an alien intelligence smarter than us doesn't exist.

Scientists take the notion of intelligent alien life seriously. From a scientific perspective, there is no reason to believe in a creator. The two are different.

But that doesn't matter, because both cases are hypothetical without solid proof. IF there is an alien species that is 1% different from us blah blah blah...

The chances of intelligent alien life not existing is negligible. Moreover, the scenario is purely hypothetical. If one uses the argument to try to argue for their God, then the argument becomes non applicable.

IF there is a being that can create and plan a universe with a thought blah blah blah...

Go ahead, provide the evidence then.

The scenario works for both situations. It is a logical and consistent argument. I don't see why you can't understand that.

One situation is purely hypothetical, another is used to actually support the idea.

But even using the argument, you forgot about the part where the really intelligent species wouldn't care about us at all, and wouldn't acknowledge us as being worthwhile to meddle in our lives. The same with a God. So a personal God becomes a joke in the argument anyway.

[The Daktanese Technocracy]

no their no prove

Thes stetment has maed me an Gnostic Atheist.

Atheists: 1

Christians: 0

Bill Cosby: 48

[Jewcrew]

And if an alien intelligence smart than us doesn't exist, then it would apply either. But we don't know that an alien intelligence smarter than us doesn't exist.

Scientists take the notion of intelligent alien life seriously. From a scientific perspective, there is no reason to believe in a creator. The two are different.

But that doesn't matter, because both cases are hypothetical without solid proof. IF there is an alien species that is 1% different from us blah blah blah...

The chances of intelligent alien life not existing is negligible. Moreover, the scenario is purely hypothetical. If one uses the argument to try to argue for their God, then the argument becomes non applicable.

IF there is a being that can create and plan a universe with a thought blah blah blah...

Go ahead, provide the evidence then.

The scenario works for both situations. It is a logical and consistent argument. I don't see why you can't understand that.

One situation is purely hypothetical, another is used to actually support the idea.

But even using the argument, you forgot about the part where the really intelligent species wouldn't care about us at all, and wouldn't acknowledge us as being worthwhile to meddle in our lives. The same with a God. So a personal God becomes a joke in the argument anyway.

I'm leaving this for someone else to deal with if they want, because I give up. Your argument makes no sense, it's just a bunch of circular logic, straw man and appeal to authority. I don't care enough to keep this up. Others got the point, it's just sad that you didn't.

[Mavorpen]

I'm leaving this for someone else to deal with if they want, because I give up. Your argument makes no sense, it's just a bunch of circular logic, straw man and appeal to authority. I don't care enough to keep this up.

So you're basically admitting you're wrong. Mmkay.

[Hitchensville]

No there is not. Only in mythology and folklore.

[Luna Amore]

I'm leaving this for someone else to deal with if they want, because I give up. Your argument makes no sense, it's just a bunch of circular logic, straw man and appeal to authority. I don't care enough to keep this up.

So you're basically admitting you're wrong. Mmkay.

I'm pretty sure bowing out /= admitting being wrong.

[Mavorpen]

So you're basically admitting you're wrong. Mmkay.

I'm pretty sure bowing out /= admitting being wrong.

Does no one know what a joke is anymore?

[Transhuman Proteus]

Your point? Oh, you weren't asking why I was concerned considering the speed of human progress?

Are you suggesting such a being exists? Perhaps you should bring some evidence to the table, because it's junk really. No evidence evolution is driven by anything, or the universe is set up to achieve any result.

What you seem to be describing isn't most worshiped divinities, it's Rube Goldberg.

Plus, you seem to have missed the point again - speaking of a particular theistic mindset, that evidently does think they know how such a being operated except when they saying "God works in mysterious ways" when they get asked uncomfortable questions. They are human centric, creation was for us and us alone, and believe god is planning on calling an end to the experiment any day (month, year) now. The fact we are stupendously tiny and irrelevant to the operation of the universe? That God is entirely unnecessary for any of it's operation? The the sun will deal with our planet itself, unless we deal with it, which isn't impossible etc? So yes, by their claim of understanding of God's "plan" he is a shockingly wasteful builder.

My point - which was quite clear - was that if there is a being that much more powerful than us in charge of the universe, you wouldn't be able to fathom how or why it thinks that way.

Let's use a thought experiment that an astrophysicist once used.

We are approximately 1% different genetically than an ape. That 1% difference is the difference between a few thousand words in sign language and the understanding of astrophysics. Great, an ape can do the same thing a human toddler can. Isn't that cute?

Now imagine an alien species that is 1% different from us the way we are 1% different from an ape. "Oh look here, it's the smartest human, Stephen Hawking. He can do astrophysics. So can our toddlers. Isn't that cute?"

Extrapolate this into a 'being' that can create and plan an entire universe with a thought.

You would not be able to comprehend how this being thinks anymore than an ape can comprehend how you think.

That's my point.

I'm familiar with it - Neil deGrasse Tyson is a great man. One who doesn't believe in God. What he was talking about doesn't really apply...

It doesn't automatically lend itself to "what would be the intelligence of a being that creates entire universes be like to us" - because that is outside the realms of reality or plausibility (unless you have some proof to the alternative). Alien beings with superior intellect, who have an easier time understanding the universe is in the realms of reality and plausibility. We have examples, grounded in reality, in what is physically possible, demonstrating the idea Tyson was communicating.

You don't have, it is all based on salvaging the chance of a divine being any way possible. I'm not sure why you go to the effort.

Plus, the whole question of "why would something so alien want to, or be able to communicate - when was the last time you talked to a worm" - you'll note most religions are built on the concept God(s) can talk to us just find, and order us around, and people are supposedly smart enough to be able to participate in this relationship (otherwise God is a creepy molester type). Which of course is where my musing comes in (funny how even the most unknowable of divine beings, like God, still seems pretty human - just a destructive, temperamental human).

I'd say your point, made by trying to adapt Tyson's point, is poor.

[Luna Amore]

I'm pretty sure bowing out /= admitting being wrong.

Does no one know what a joke is anymore?

Throw a 'knock knock' on the front next time.

[Mavorpen]

Does no one know what a joke is anymore?

Throw a 'knock knock' on the front next time.

I only do that when I'm not joking. Catches them off guard. *nods*

[The Daktanese Technocracy]

No there is not. Only in mythology and folklore.

I would love to have your proof of that!

[Goddess Diva Hatsune Miku]

Haruhi is the only true god.

[Mavorpen]

Haruhi is the only true god.

Oh no...

[Norstal]

Haruhi is the only true god.

Oh no...

Indeed. It's Madoka.

[Ulvena]

Personally, I don't believe in a God. No religion so far has come up with conclusive evidence or even inconclusive, interesting arguments that can't have alternate theories. But, if there are gods, I do have a few ideas on what it may be.

1. Aliens! I recently finished Assassin's Creed Revelations and spoiler alert, there are aliens. In the Assassin's Creed universe, there are people called the Ones who Came Before. They were a species that lived on Earth and created humanity as a workforce. But after the Toba catastrophe, most technology from that species faded away and the last remaining Ones who Came Before were revered as gods before they went extinct. Juno, Jupiter, Minerva, etc.

It doesn't have to be that farfetched and awesome but it is entirely possible that what we regard as Gods are simply extraterrestrials. Take for instance the resurrection of Jesus. What if aliens simply brought him back like in Mass Effect 2? The 3 days of death? Simply aliens taking three days to bring him back to life. Maybe Jesus was an alien spy. Or he was a scout. Or maybe he was a regular human that the aliens took interest in. Him rising up to Heaven? Aliens using a tractor beam!

I'll stop here. I feel like that History Channel guy.

2. God may be a 9th Dimensional being. String Theory says that there are 9 dimensions of space and one dimension of time instead of three dimensions of space and one dimension of time. Just as a sufficiently advanced species may be able to manipulate dimensions lower than theirs, God may be an ascended being that can manipulate our dimension.

3. God is outside of space and time. Like the second idea but God has more power. If God was an ascended being that resided outside of space and time, he is outside of the laws of physics. Nobody has any idea what that's like.

[Transhuman Proteus]

Scientists take the notion of intelligent alien life seriously. From a scientific perspective, there is no reason to believe in a creator. The two are different.

The chances of intelligent alien life not existing is negligible. Moreover, the scenario is purely hypothetical. If one uses the argument to try to argue for their God, then the argument becomes non applicable.

Go ahead, provide the evidence then.

One situation is purely hypothetical, another is used to actually support the idea.

But even using the argument, you forgot about the part where the really intelligent species wouldn't care about us at all, and wouldn't acknowledge us as being worthwhile to meddle in our lives. The same with a God. So a personal God becomes a joke in the argument anyway.

I'm leaving this for someone else to deal with if they want, because I give up. Your argument makes no sense, it's just a bunch of circular logic, straw man and appeal to authority. I don't care enough to keep this up. Others got the point, it's just sad that you didn't.

Oh, did they? You are aware just claiming that doesn't make it so, right? And that people that want to believe doesn't make it right, correct?

And I haven't seen someone throw up chaff like that for a while "it's just a bunch of circular logic, straw man and appeal to authority, I'm out" *disappears into the jungle*

Care to identify what in Mav's rebuttal represents the circular logic, the straw man and the appeal to authority?

[Not a pipe]

Personally, I don't believe in a God. No religion so far has come up with conclusive evidence or even inconclusive, interesting arguments that can't have alternate theories. But, if there are gods, I do have a few ideas on what it may be.

1. Aliens! I recently finished Assassin's Creed Revelations and spoiler alert, there are aliens. In the Assassin's Creed universe, there are people called the Ones who Came Before. They were a species that lived on Earth and created humanity as a workforce. But after the Toba catastrophe, most technology from that species faded away and the last remaining Ones who Came Before were revered as gods before they went extinct. Juno, Jupiter, Minerva, etc.

It doesn't have to be that farfetched and awesome but it is entirely possible that what we regard as Gods are simply extraterrestrials. Take for instance the resurrection of Jesus. What if aliens simply brought him back like in Mass Effect 2? The 3 days of death? Simply aliens taking three days to bring him back to life. Maybe Jesus was an alien spy. Or he was a scout. Or maybe he was a regular human that the aliens took interest in. Him rising up to Heaven? Aliens using a tractor beam!

I'll stop here. I feel like that History Channel guy.

2. God may be a 9th Dimensional being. String Theory says that there are 9 dimensions of space and one dimension of time instead of three dimensions of space and one dimension of time. Just as a sufficiently advanced species may be able to manipulate dimensions lower than theirs, God may be an ascended being that can manipulate our dimension.

3. God is outside of space and time. Like the second idea but God has more power. If God was an ascended being that resided outside of space and time, he is outside of the laws of physics. Nobody has any idea what that's like.

I pick Option #3. (But like you say, nobody knows for sure. I would think it is also unknowable.)

[Norstal]

I'll stop here. I feel like that History Channel guy.

2. God may be a 9th Dimensional being. String Theory says that there are 9 dimensions of space and one dimension of time instead of three dimensions of space and one dimension of time. Just as a sufficiently advanced species may be able to manipulate dimensions lower than theirs, God may be an ascended being that can manipulate our dimension.

What is this I don't even. If I remember correctly, anyone can be in the upper dimensions .

3. God is outside of space and time. Like the second idea but God has more power. If God was an ascended being that resided outside of space and time, he is outside of the laws of physics. Nobody has any idea what that's like.

Agreed. And with that, one must take the position of ignosticism.

[Goddess Diva Hatsune Miku]

Miku is also considered a god b/c she brings harmony with her songs. She truly is also a goddess that saves those that have lost there ways. A god is one who's respect most be earn by the people (in this case Miku).

[Jewcrew]

My point - which was quite clear - was that if there is a being that much more powerful than us in charge of the universe, you wouldn't be able to fathom how or why it thinks that way.

Let's use a thought experiment that an astrophysicist once used.

We are approximately 1% different genetically than an ape. That 1% difference is the difference between a few thousand words in sign language and the understanding of astrophysics. Great, an ape can do the same thing a human toddler can. Isn't that cute?

Now imagine an alien species that is 1% different from us the way we are 1% different from an ape. "Oh look here, it's the smartest human, Stephen Hawking. He can do astrophysics. So can our toddlers. Isn't that cute?"

Extrapolate this into a 'being' that can create and plan an entire universe with a thought.

You would not be able to comprehend how this being thinks anymore than an ape can comprehend how you think.

That's my point.

I'm familiar with it - Neil deGrasse Tyson is a great man. One who doesn't believe in God. What he was talking about doesn't really apply...

It doesn't automatically lend itself to "what would be the intelligence of a being that creates entire universes be like to us" - because that is outside the realms of reality or plausibility (unless you have some proof to the alternative). Alien beings with superior intellect, who have an easier time understanding the universe is in the realms of reality and plausibility. Your "point" is purely hypothetical based on salvaging the chance of their being a divine being any way possible.

Plus, the whole question of "why would something so alien want to, or be able to communicate - when was the last time you talked to a worm" - you'll note most religions are built on the concept God(s) can talk to us just find, and order us around, and people are supposedly smart enough to be able to participate in this relationship. Which of course is where my musing comes in (funny how even the most unknowable of divine beings, like God, still seems pretty human - just a destructive, temperamental human).

I'd say your point, made by trying to adapt Tyson's point, is poor.

Admittedly it isn't a perfect fit, but it still works.

And the whole issue of 'why would something so alien want to, or be able to communicate' makes yet another assumption about the motivations of such a being as a Creator. Why would such a being create a universe in the first place? All we can do is make assumptions.

Even using the argument with aliens is ill-advised, as an alien may very well be interested in learning about a viewpoint on a philosophical issue from a creature less intelligent out of curiosity if for nothing else.

[Natty Narwhal]

I don't know. Maybe. I really don't bother wondering about such things.

[Norstal]

I'm leaving this for someone else to deal with if they want, because I give up. Your argument makes no sense, it's just a bunch of circular logic, straw man and appeal to authority. I don't care enough to keep this up. Others got the point, it's just sad that you didn't.

1. There is a circular logic, but he provided a definition. Definitions are circular, but that doesn't make it fallacious.
2. I haven't followed the thread since c'est un zombie, but which are strawmen?
3. Appeal to authority is not a fallacy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority
"either the Authority is not a subject-matter expert, or there is no consensus among experts in the subject matter, or both"

That's the only case when it's fallacy.

[Goddess Diva Hatsune Miku]

Would a god really let his worshipers die unjustly at times? If so, then is he truly considered a god to be worshiped?

[Transhuman Proteus]

I'm familiar with it - Neil deGrasse Tyson is a great man. One who doesn't believe in God. What he was talking about doesn't really apply...

It doesn't automatically lend itself to "what would be the intelligence of a being that creates entire universes be like to us" - because that is outside the realms of reality or plausibility (unless you have some proof to the alternative). Alien beings with superior intellect, who have an easier time understanding the universe is in the realms of reality and plausibility. Your "point" is purely hypothetical based on salvaging the chance of their being a divine being any way possible.

Plus, the whole question of "why would something so alien want to, or be able to communicate - when was the last time you talked to a worm" - you'll note most religions are built on the concept God(s) can talk to us just find, and order us around, and people are supposedly smart enough to be able to participate in this relationship. Which of course is where my musing comes in (funny how even the most unknowable of divine beings, like God, still seems pretty human - just a destructive, temperamental human).

I'd say your point, made by trying to adapt Tyson's point, is poor.

Admittedly it isn't a perfect fit, but it still works.

And the whole issue of 'why would something so alien want to, or be able to communicate' makes yet another assumption about the motivations of such a being as a Creator. Why would such a being create a universe in the first place? All we can do is make assumptions.

So, wow. We're back to the start. I question a theistic position held by some that doesn't make sense when looking at the universe as a whole.

You don't actually comment on the position itself, but say a God could still exist even though nothing in the universe suggests it does, or needs to, or should, just because by being so smart and alien it could have designed the universe in a way that doesn't look like it did, or needed to, or should have.

Yet...

Even using the argument with aliens is ill-advised, as an alien may very well be interested in learning about a viewpoint on a philosophical issue from a creature less intelligent out of curiosity if for nothing else.

Designed the universe in a way that doesn't show it was designed or needed a God, but then is interested in us and communicates with us (until technology advances to a point where we could record it as evidence, then it stops)...

So are you saying all modern religions are wrong?