Bullying, damaging or helpful?

[Simon Cowell of the RR]

Since apparently the gravedig is here to stay I might as well toss in my $.03.

I am fairly certain that, to an extent, just about everyone has been bullied at some point in their lives. Teens in NS especially. The idea that this bullying is anything less than horrible would be laughable, if it was not so disgusting. Attempting to break other people psychologically for whimsical or illogical reasons is an unfortunate physiological hold over from darker times.

Some of you have said you were successful, and you were bullied. Therefore, this relationship is causal. Well, I was illiterate until the age of 9 and recently won a rather large writing contest. Now is b because of a, or in spite of it?

[Sinlenian Zindujan]

In Sinlenian Zindujan bullying and mobbing is banned. A lot of bullies ended up in prison camps for harassment of those, who are weaker than they were. The main concept of our society is Help the weak one, otherwise you are not strong, and you won't be. This is how we've won the war against oppressors, and this is how we build our future.

[Socialdemokraterne]

So you became a bit more confident? I don't think you really needed to be bullied for that.

That said I'm sure you work in mid-level management at best and this story is mostly a fantasy (a 12-13 year old doing weights you say?)

The OP isn't necessarily lying. There are kids that young lifting weights. I did too at that age, and I was really, really good at it. I managed to convince a teacher to watch over a bunch of us in the school's weight room in the afternoons, and he taught us how to safely build strength and endurance while retaining flexibility. He taught us how to eat, how to move, how to breathe. It built both a sense of camaraderie and a sense of competition between myself and my fellow lifters. It gave me a chance to better myself. I never really understood why people liked sports so much until I helped form that club. What started out as a whim became a defining moment for me. It changed my whole way of thinking. My grades went up too, right around that time. I think that it was the competitive fire that I'd lit inside myself. I wanted to be the best at everything, and I always wanted to take on the hardest challenges I could. At the very least I had to beat my fellow club members' grades, and they tried to do the same to me. It. Was. Marvelous.

OP, my bullying problem faded away right around that time too. But I would argue that it was absolutely not the bullying which changed my life's direction into an upswing. At the very least in my case you'd have things backwards to suggest that. I didn't form/join that club seeking to overcome my bullies, they did not light that fire in me. I was simply trying to find a purpose, something to focus on. I was a bored, lonely kid looking for something to do. It was that club, that purpose I found in it, and the friends I made that turned things around. And as my life entered an upswing, my bullies were less able to influence me. It wasn't the bullying that improved me, it was me that improved me. See what I mean?

[Socialdemokraterne]

Well enough doubt to spark over 100 replies.

It's NSG, the only subjects that don't break 100 replies are ad spam and in-character threads that get moved before they hit 100.

My inquiry into interpretation of NS Tracker data didn't even break one page. O.o

[Socialdemokraterne]

My inquiry into interpretation of NS Tracker data didn't even break one page. O.o

Which reminds me, what the hell is "Government waste"?

I've just run on the assumption that "government waste" is more or less the combination of these things:

(a) Money put toward an initiative that was not used (budget was too high, extra money could've gone elsewhere)
(b) Money put toward an initiative that was insufficient for what was needed (budget was too low, had to deficit spend)

In other words, I think it's when you either charge citizens more than you should or not enough instead of the right amount. That's not something you can directly control, but I've managed to keep it pretty low by managing the corruption in my national government.

[Socialdemokraterne]

Thanks, if it's red is it good or bad?

Red is bad and green is good. I assume it works like this:

Red: You don't have enough money to cover all your budgeted expenses. You're deficit spending. Raise taxes or find some other way to raise money.
Green: You have more than enough money to cover all your expenses. You're charging your citizens more than you need to. You can cut taxes safely.

[Socialdemokraterne]

That raises an important point for this thread: it's doubtful that anyone's experiences can be taken as the "normative" experience. Bullying is a case-by-case sort of thing, and while some may look back at their experiences as positive, a "school of hard knocks" kind of thing, others do not have such a positive outlook on the experience of being bullied. This latter group is not any weaker than the former, and that's because (as I said) bullying is a thing that varies from case to case. There is no "normal" experience of bullying, only vague behavioral patterns between offender and victim.

[Socialdemokraterne]

For all your natural selection talk, it sounds like you lost the battle. You let them change you, you gave in.

I changed completely of my own volition. Does that mean I "win"?

[Socialdemokraterne]

I'm not familiar with your personal history, so I don't know.

See page 6. It's a somewhat long post, but there's a point somewhere in there and it gives plenty of details on my personal situation. The Reader's Digest version: I wanted a sense of purpose, formed a weight-lifting club, and found purpose in that. Everything went up from there, and my bullies backed off (not due to the strength alone, but I bet part of it was because I wasn't an easy emotional target anymore either).

[Socialdemokraterne]

The difference is that you're not claiming that being bullied changed you for the better. You credit yourself for eventually taking the initiative and moving past them, but you're not saying that the actual bullying was a positive. The OP and the one guy I replied to, on the other hand, seem to have Stockholm Syndrome.

Oh, no. The bullying was absolutely terrible, and I can't see how it would ever be beneficial (even if it built drive to overcome them, because that's just spawning hatred in you). I forgave my bullies, but I absolutely never wanted to associate with them ever again. I forgave them, but never enough to let them back into my life. Of course, I've broken this rule for those who became friendly and polite, and some such people were among my best friends. But this was rare.

[Socialdemokraterne]

I'd like to be "That guy". Bullying is helpful, in moderation. It helps a person become stronger. It helps people not become flimsy, pansy, weak willed idiots who can't cope with insults.

Its like continually working a muscle. Its hard, it hurts, and it burns. But tomorrow, it becomes stronger.

Its the same thing for bullying. Keeps you mentally resilient.

"Bullying" has been going on for thousands of years. From killing the atheists back in the 1600's to beating up the kid who talks funny on the playground. It's always been with us and its not going away.

I think you're confusing bullying (something that should be prevented) and rudeness. It is rude to insult someone for the way they talk or walk. Being able to endure such rudeness is a part of growing up. Being systematically mocked for the way one walks or talks is entirely different from rudeness, that is bullying and it has absolutely nothing to do with growing up. Experiencing mockery occasionally and experiencing it systematically are two entirely different animals. One is a part of life, one is a demonstrable case of harassment.

Also...systematically killing Atheists wouldn't be "bullying", it'd be genocide. Beating up that kid who talks funny is battery. These are not acceptable behaviors. The irrevocable character of violence does not mean it should not even be contested.

Inb4 liberals whining about love and tolerance.

This is unbearably pretentious.

[Socialdemokraterne]

Maybe I should try to be more clear, regarding the killing atheists and stuff.

I'm not saying specifically those acts, but those acts stem from the same thing. "Bullying", just on 2 different scales. Conformity enforcing.

Even if I crank up the scale to the population level, the rules stay the same. Physical attacks and systematic scorn of entire groups of people who've done nothing wrong is improper behavior.

As for pretentiousness, Oh well. Whatcha gonna do about it?

Exactly what I did. Tell you you're being pretentious and move on with my life. Does it really have to amount to anything more? Should I spend a couple of hours fuming over you?

[Socialdemokraterne]

Oh no, I just meant it in a sarcastic tone. Like "Oh well, I sounded like a pretentious idiot there but what can I do about it? Argue with this random stranger about it on the intertubes?". Thats what I mean. It shouldn't amount to anything more.

I think we're both on the same page as to just how little an issue this really is.

[Socialdemokraterne]

Oh. Well thats comforting. Feels like I've been in a whole nother book on this thread. Probably because I am.

It really does seem like we're approaching the matter from two entirely different angles, doesn't it? The thing is, I agree with you that we can't helicopter over children trying to keep them from ever insulting or being insulted. But that's not really what bullying is, it's not what we're talking about. Bullying is systematic in nature. It's not beating up a kid for talking funny, it's making a routine of following that kid around and hurting them however you can, whenever you can. Surely that's not something we should just let happen?

[Socialdemokraterne]

R Ev0lution, the kind of person you are is the reason I was able to forgive my bullies for the harm they did to me. There are penitent bullies who genuinely change their ways and realize what they've done. And there are bullies who go further than merely stopping, they try to repair the damage they've done. They try to make amends for their actions. My faith in humanity has increased a bit because of your account.

[Socialdemokraterne]

In a way it prepares them for life as a grown up.
There will be noone to shelter them from insults as a grown up. They need to take it on the chin and emerge a stronger person.

Not that I support bullying, though.

There is a difference between being rude to someone and committing battery and/or harassment against someone. The former is a part of life that everyone learns to deal with, the latter is behavior we as a community have decided people should never have to endure. Bullying fits the latter's criteria, not the former. A bully is a lot more than someone who was a jerk to you on the bus last Wednesday. A bully is a harasser, a thug, a criminal. We can't and shouldn't punish people for being rude. We should not hesitate to punish them for harassing and attacking people.

[Socialist Ecuador]

You don't seem to get it. Your single personal experience does not discount the fact that every other source says bullying does nothing but damage. You say you got over it (a dubious claim, but I digress), good for you. Not everyone does. It's not the victim's fault for getting bullied, and bullies need to be punished accordingly.

I have said that before, my personal account does not prove anything, but it casts doubt, and that is all that is needed for debate.

Once, some guy fell off a tall building and lived. This casts doubt on whether falling off tall building is damaging.

[Socialist Ecuador]

I'm more into removing humanity's problems than trying to correct them.

You will love the Nazi Party, then! We are committed to removing humanity's problems!

Do you have some sort of final solution for it?

[Sokyevka]

As a former victim of Psychological Bullying, i find it to be extremely damaging, as it destroyed every ounce of Self-Confidence i had and i am still recovering from that today.

[Soleichunn]

Bullying, however, is absolutely damaging. Not only is the person being bullied becoming psychologically (and possibly physically) damaged, the bully is using their position of power or strength to harm the person. They bully because it is easier to bully someone weaker than it is to challenge someone stronger or smarter, who has the courage to stand up for themselves.

IIRC, the major psychological reason for bullying is that it functions as a group unification method.

That being said, yes it is damaging, and should be prevented/rectified where possible.

[The Blue Plains]

Physical is only damaging. Verbal is only helpful. Children discourage what adults will disapprove of in real life and what will hurt the recipients of the bullying later on. Fat people are less likely to be hired, for instance. The reason they are bullied is BECAUSE society disapproves of certain traits. If we want to stop bullying we can stop disapproving of those traits.

[The Blue Plains]

You my dear sir sound like an http://www.personalitypage.com/INTP.html

Psst, Briggs-Meyers is full of crap. Just thought you should know.

I don't know they pretty much nailed me. They said "You might find these activities fulfilling:" And it was literally like every single activity I was doing at the time. *shrug*

[The Cookish States]

I got bullied horribly in elementary and middle school for having German heritage (A flag in my binder, and I knew some German I tried to teach a girl, thus I was labeled a 'Nazi') to the point that I begged my parents to move to another state (Luckily, we're military so it was possible.)

I know that not everyone can run from their bullies, or even their problems but for me that escape changed who I was. I know how bullying starts and I refused to let it happen again. Now I'm popular and all that jazz...typical Cinderella story. I'm stronger for what happened and I'm glad I got the crap kicked out of me, I'm glad I got food thrown at me at lunch, I'm glad the kids used to draw swastikas all over my bike, binder, and football equipment. That doesn't mean I condone it though, it still makes me sick when I see it. can't wait til I can actually beat the tar out of a bully instead of just scaring them off..

[The Cookish States]

Now I'm popular and all that jazz...

Lemme guess. You aren't as open about your German heritage anymore.

Ha. Hell no.

[The Cookish States]

Oh, no. The bullying was absolutely terrible, and I can't see how it would ever be beneficial (even if it built drive to overcome them, because that's just spawning hatred in you). I forgave my bullies, but I absolutely never wanted to associate with them ever again. I forgave them, but never enough to let them back into my life. Of course, I've broken this rule for those who became friendly and polite, and some such people were among my best friends. But this was rare.

Yeah, the OP and about 1 other person claim that bullying itself is actually a positive using the age-old "builds character" argument. It's been wrong for ages, but some people just can't let it go.

I don't think it helps everybody or even most people. It just helped me. I don't think it's universally good or bad for everyone. Some people handle things positively, some negatively. Life.