Bullying, damaging or helpful?

[New Heathera]

Have YOU ever been a long term bully victim?

Not really, as I have a temper, and after a day or two I'd get into a fight and that would end the matter.

Well there, you have no right to be saying how bully victims should react them. I hate it when a bystander starts telling everyone how they should handle things. It's like someone who's never left their home criticizing a soldier's reaction to his brothers in arms getting killed.

[New Rogernomics]

I was bullied by my classmates for being 'gay' (even though I am just bisexual), and later ostracized by a large part of the high school. So I wouldn't call bullying anything but damaging. It didn't stop me having lots of friends, who were friends with the popular kids; or befriending the tough kids. So I never experienced the physical kind, as my friends would have beaten the physical bullies to a pulp.

[Norstal]

This question may seem to have an obvious answer, and I'm sure a lot of you will be quick to get on the moral high ground and say what any normal person would "Bullying is mentally damaging, physically damaging, dangerous..." and so on, however I pose another answer to this question, one that a lot of the victims of bullying would be appalled by.

I was bullied myself, in my younger years, but because we didn't have the internet to hide behind and insult each other over, it was often done face to face, and that gave the victim a chance to stand up for themselves. After about 6 years of putting up with it, and by the age of 12/13 I started lifting weights, using our gym, I took some self defence classes, and in about 4 years I had made the transition from the bullied little child, to the psychopath nobody dared touch, and I tell you my friends, the sense of achievement I got from it, well it made me want to walk over to my old bullies and shake their hands!

You see, I used to be quite the 'geek' and I found that when I grew stronger and was better able to defend myself, I felt far less worried about using my knowledge in the classroom, my marks increased, I got better CSE's and I did rather well when it came to higher education as well, and I genuinely thank the bullies that allowed me to stand up for myself and rise above them.

People might say that it would have been better if I was never bullied in the first place, but once again I disagree, not only is completely eliminating bullying near impossible, but I am glad I was shown the harsh realities of life as I left school far more prepared, if I had not been subject to seven or eight years of physical bullying, I would've left school a sheltered little child, unprepared for what life was to throw at me and I don't think I would be where I am now, in fact I don't even know if I'd be alive.

When I was in my early twenties, I had stayed the week in Cardiff and was on my way to catch a train home, it was late at night and I was on a secluded pathway when a youth, probably about 18 or 19, approached me from behind he must have hit me in the back of the head, as I stumbled forward only just managing to remain on my feet, I was about to strike back when I noticed he was holding a knife, I managed to grab his wrist and turn his arm violently back on itself, I don't know if I broke anything but the young man, if I remember correctly kicked back into my shin and I fell on the floor, he must have ran off because by the time I got back up, the youth was gone, the police never caught him and I can't remember what he looks like at all, but it was 20 odd years ago.

What I am saying it, if I had not been bullied, not taken self defence classes, not lifted weights, I highly doubt I would have been able to disarm that child and may possibly have been stabbed, it's a thought that makes me shudder, but also causes me to ask this question.

Bullying, damaging or helpful?

Ah perfect timing, finished writing this just as my takeaway arrived, I shall reply later.

Wow, if this isn't a case of Stockholm syndrome, I don't know what is (and no anarchists, us statists don't have this because we are the state).

Oh for goodness sake man. It was a manner of speech, personally I wouldn't have used that phrase either, but that is what my friends used to say to me, in jest of course, and I decided to use it to add a tinge of authenticity to the tale.

I don't care about the studies, I was not harmed by being bullied, in fact I believe it played an important part in the life I have today, so there is still a debate.

You know the Nazi's used to encourage fights in the Hitler Youth because it toughened the boys up for war, and if you look at how strong the SS were as an elite force, it might have done the trick!

Did getting bullied damaged your ability to read?

What part of "exception to the norm" do you not understand?

I was bullied once, but it's a fucking experience that no one should ever fucking endured. Sorry the rest of us are not part of the SS Waffen. And your anecdote is just what it is; an anecdote.

[Norstal]

What part of "exception to the norm" do you not understand?

What on earth are you talking about, I addressed that issue by saying that one exception can allow for much debate over the matter, besides I don't think it's just me that has managed to gain a positive outcome from bullying.

So if something is good for a minority of people, we should continue doing it and it's helpful.

There's no debate that war is good, even if it produced some of the best writers and scientists in the world. There's no debate that what Genghis Khan did wasn't horrific, even if he established the Silk Road. There's no fucking debate about any of these things and there should not be a debate on whether bullying is good or not.

[Norstal]

Harmful to an extent, but I really think that all this anti-bullying shit is foolish. Kids need to toughen up, not wimp out.

Does giving into a bully's intimidation and stooping to his level really count as "toughening up"? That sounds more like wimping out to me.

Obviously people like Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold need to toughen up-oh wait they did.

[Norstal]

So if something is good for a minority of people, we should continue doing it and it's helpful.

There's no debate that war is good, even if it produced some of the best writers and scientists in the world. There's no debate that what Genghis Khan did wasn't horrific, even if he established the Silk Road. There's no fucking debate about any of these things and there should not be a debate on whether bullying is good or not.

Can you please refrain from overusing profanity to such an extent.

There is debate about anything that cannot be proven for goodness sake,

You said that "I don't care about the studies, I was not harmed by being bullied, [sic]" and now you want us to prove that it's damaging? Are you trolling? This is why I use profanity. This kind of logical dissonance will increase my blood pressure. If you want me to stop using profanities, don't say stupid things.

and because bullying had had a positive effect on me, it is up for debate, if you don't want to participate, that's up to you, but if you are going to participate, get your facts right and stop being so bloody obnoxious.

Yet, your "facts" are just anecdotes. You're using anecdotes, your own anecdotes, to put up a debate about something that affects everyone else?

Dear god.

Look, do you want facts and studies or are you just going to keep referring to your personal anecdotes to defend your position?

[Norstal]

HAI GUISE. USING THIS THREAD'S INSANE TROLL LOGIC, I AM PROUD TO ANNOUNCE THAT ALL SCHOOLS WILL NOW BE FITTED WITH HIGHLY RADIOACTIVE NUCLEAR WASTE. IT MIGHT KILL A LOT OF KIDS, BUT ONE OR TWO MIGHT GAIN SUPERPOWER MUTATIONS, AND THAT MAKES IT TOTES MEGAS!

Make everyone read 120 Days of Sodom. It's great literature for some people, therefore it's great literature for everyone else.

[Norstal]

You really haven't experienced true bullying.

It hurts.

To the core.

Probably, but why not get mad instead of sad about it? I've never understood why some people always get sad/scared/depressed about situations like that. I always get mad. Very mad. Maybe I'm just odd though.

Yeah, why don't these victims just mimic Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold. I mean it worked out for them.

[Norstal]

I'm actually in the same predicament as you. Reacting to injustice with anger, anger, and more anger.

Being mad doesn't hurt you? I mean, sometimes it's cathartic, but when it's directed towards a person or group of people to the point where you actively wish harm on them?

I think being mad is better than being sad, and less damaging. Is being angry damaging to you? I honestly have no idea, nor do I care. I prefer to be angry to being sad.

"Oh my god, there are other people who are different than me? Well I don't care and fuck them, they should've followed my way."

[Norstal]

I got mad. Very mad. Then, that night, and that weekend, when I didn't have to deal with it and I calmed down, I got depressed. Then it got so bad I got depressed while it was going on. Anger doesn't last. It's like a fire. You can try and keep it going and keep warm all you want, but eventually it will run out, and when it does you get cold - sad.

Well, that's all the more reason to use the fire while you it have to do something about your situation.

Yeah, the Columbine Massacre worked out real well.

[Norstal]

Or you could figure out how to deal with the cold, or hold it off in another way. Keep the fire under control. It's fine to be angry. Just try not to show it. Because if it gets out of hand then it'll change from a campfire to a forest fire.

Why would you want to do that?

I know, why the hell would you try to solve everything peacefully, get to the bottom of the problem, and be the better person when you can just repeat another Columbine?

[Norstal]

You really haven't experienced true bullying.

It hurts.

To the core.

Yeah, it does. It hurts. And you become a hell of a lot better of a person for it. Don't get me wrong, It is terrible, But what you gain from it is far more valuable than smashed feelings, bruises, blood, and gaining the status as a social pariah.

Did you learn this when you were studying at the University of Idiotic Assertions?

[Norstal]

Pfft.

Use your fists. And your elbows, knees, feet, forehead, teeth, maybe some bats if you want. Worked for me.

Did it worked for you when you were applying for a job?

Oh, it only worked in fighting bullies and has no real world applications. Fancy that.

[Norstal]

Unless...you gain nothing and only come out as a mentally scarred, physically broken shadow of a person due to years of systematic and systemic mental/physical/sexual abuse. Which happens a lot.

Unless you gain nothing. Because you're weak minded idiot who let them break you.

Sexual abuse I'm not saying anything about it. I know nothing of that.

Lol. So ITG.

[Norstal]

Lol. So ITG.

A lot of that in this thread, I've noticed.

Everytime I see a post like that, it reminds me of this:

<putnam> this chinese kid said something so damn funny today on the phone
<putnam> let me give you the exact quote that he said, i will make sure not to make any typos. just picture hearing a chinese thug say this
<putnam> i said "man i'm gonna kick your ass" and he responds with:
<putnam> oh fuck nah...i'm gonna get some brick, and throw it across your window. i'm gonna throw it across your window and burn your bushes.

[Norstal]

As for pretentiousness, Oh well. Whatcha gonna do about it?

Report you to moderation.

[Norstal]

Report you to moderation.

For what? He did jack shit.

Then he shouldn't worry. I won't be the one reporting, that's up to the other guy since it was the other guy who mentioned it first.

What, you ITGs aren't afraid of bullies, but scared of authorities?

[Norstal]

Then he shouldn't worry. I won't be the one reporting, that's up to the other guy since it was the other guy who mentioned it first.

What, you ITGs aren't afraid of bullies, but scared of authorities?

What an unsubtle little insult there, pal. You're not half as clever as you think you are.

I'm not the one calling everyone else idiots and I did not say I'm "clever". I'm merely saying that whatever you say here has consequences and further aggression will lead to moderation.

Since you're keeping this on and to prevent a threadjack, if you want to discuss this more, go here:
viewtopic.php?p=8941244#p8941244

[Norstal]

Meh, I got a bit of shit like everyone else back in the HS middle class but I had friends and shrugged it off. TBH, a lot of the people who got really bullied were fuckups to begin with...the kind who weren't so much smart as smarmy assholes or who were just plain weird.

So let me get this straight....I made A-B honor roll in 2nd grade.....I had high grades in history and science....I like sci-fi and video games....so because of that, I'm weird and deserved to be bullied??

They're just playing the "blame the victims" game. Cause it's so much fun until it happens to them.

[Northern Dominus]

Of course I don't thank the bullies for the self determination inside of me, but I do give them credit for providing me with a damn good incentive.

Besides, nowadays youths self harm because someone called their picture ugly on My Space or Face Book, I think back in my day kids were a lot more resilient.

Except back in your day there was an escape at some point from the torture of bullies. Nowadays these "weak" kids as you so call them are tormented not only during the day when they are in school but now in cyberspace as well. It's not just cyber-bullying alone, although that is a serious problem, but the fact that there is no refuge from a bully in this day and age short of completely unplugging and becoming a complete recluse. That sort of isolation is crippling and debilitating and it's no wonder why the rate suicide has gone up recently.

A lot of the youth of today also attend school under a strict set of "zero tolerance" rules as well, so physically standing up for yourself only lands both parties in jail irregardless of who is the bully and who was merely trying to survive in some form.

Bullying isn't a coming-of-age story like so many disney movies have portrayed, it isn't a rite of passage and it isn't tolerable. One of the reasons we have an increase of teen suicides and we have school shootings is because of this reckless and frankly abusive mindset that bullying "toughens kids up", when instead it damages some young people to the point that they feel as though they have no way out and need to take extreme action directed at themselves or outward towards everyone, the same people who didn't stand up for what was right.

[Northern Dominus]

there is no "reality of bullying". most kids arent bullied. at least not to a serious extent. once you are grown up you never need to put up with a bully. only kids get tormented that way.

Bullying occours in the workplace as well. Maybe not the "traditional" physical bullying but psychological abuse can be inflicted. What's worse is professional bullying IE intentionally giving bad employee reviews or sabotaging efforts to find another job or references.

[Northern Dominus]

The opinions of others have and never will help me, your worthless to me unless proven otherwise. So why should i care what you think, what you say when all it does is drag me down and annoy me? My opinion matters to me and in the end that is all that will matter when i have turned to dust. Everyone is always trying to damage me in some way why should i think otherwise no one i have met has given me reason to think differently and never will. A show of low self esteem is when you think others opinion of you supersede your own, that's one of the reason why those weaklings kill themselves because they let other get to them rather than accept who they are, they rely on others to keep their self esteem up, that in my opinion is quite pitiful.

Tell you what. If you're going to put up your own opinion then tell us you shouldn't bother listening to ours, why don't you spare everyone the annoyance and GTFO?

Off topic, both of you. Reel it in before the mods shut this down.

[Northern Dominus]

I'd like to share my opinion, especially since most of the anecdotes we've heard so far were from victims (who either "toughened up" or didn't). I think it might add a lot to the conversation if you heard from somebody who himself used to be a bully.

First, let me say that I was a bully until I was 12 or 13, and that I sincerely regret doing what I did. If I met the people who I used to push around, I doubt I'd even muster up the courage to apologize and ask for their forgiveness. In the beginning, I enjoyed bullying because it gave me a sense of power and dominance over people who I perceived as "weaker." However, over time, I realized how ridiculous I was being. Bullying is all about establishing your place in a social hierarchy through violence and psychological warfare.

For those of you who argue that being a victim of bullying "toughens people up," let me say that it doesn't. People react in one of two ways: they escalate or they defer. They don't "toughen up." Bullying is a relentless assault -- 24/7/365 -- of warfare. There's no evading it. It is a form of propaganda intended to strip a person of their power, self-esteem, and willpower. Some, such as the OP, "escalate," and respond by attempting a hard show of toughness. As a bully, I never took this as a sign to "stay away," it merely meant that I needed to get a few of my friends, and pound my victim into the ground until he got the message -- "I can do anything I want to you, and nothing you do will change that." The only form of escalation that would've stopped me at that age was if somebody got fed up with me, got a gun, and killed me, a la Columbine. And deferring isn't much better -- it's a show of what I perceived as weakness. In essence, whatever people did was merely an invitation to continue. The ones who "got tougher" were the just the uncooperative ones who needed extra attention.

If you still think you "toughened up" because of your bullies, or if you view victims of bullying as sissies or weaklings, let me say that everybody has a breaking point. A threshold where they simply can't take it anymore. If your bully never managed to push you to that point, good for you. Consider yourself lucky. But don't lie to yourself. Everybody has buttons that can be pushed, and, if you think you "toughened up," then that just means that whoever bullied you either didn't push the right buttons, or didn't push them hard enough. Being a victim of bullying is like being a victim of the Holocaust -- you're either a survivor or a casualty. Nobody got "tougher" because they were in a concentration camp.

Finally, there is no such thing as bullying "improving self-esteem" or "preparing you for harsh realities." Self-esteem is achieved through success, and preparation for reality is achieved through failure. True, constant success leads to over-confidence, which will rock you when you finally fail. On the other hand, constant failure makes people feel helpless. Bullying is an attempt at sabotaging an individual's psychology, making every failure and shortcoming seem insurmountable, while undermining every meager victory. As somebody who has tutored, coached, and counseled both peers and youth, I can tell from firsthand experience: If you want to build a successful person, you don't bully them. You encourage them to rise to challenges, learn from their failures, and show them that victory is an attainable goal. Bullying does not do this -- it merely oppresses, robs, and breaks. It does not "push" you, but, rather, it "pushes around."

If you are currently a victim of bullying or have been bullied, please feel free to send me a PM/Telegram, or to open up to an understanding friend. There is no shame, disgrace, or weakness in seeking solace, sanctuary, protection, or sympathy from something this serious. If you approach me as a victim of bullying seeking help, I will respect your privacy and your situation, and offer you my wholehearted support.

First off, thank you for lending your perspective and experience to this problem, especially in light of the fact that a disturbing number of people apparently think bullying is beneficial in some way.

I'm curious what you make of this recent rise in teen suicide rates related to bullying, especially the ones regarding a young person's sexual orientation. Does the advent of the internet and communications technology. Does that constant access increase the intensity of that 24/7/365 assault you referenced?
Also, in light of this escalating suicide rate who is to blame? Do the bullies have everything laid squarely at their feet and on their shoulders or does society at large have a part in the blame for not proactively taking on the bullies and standing up for their victims, seemingly leaving the task to a small few willing to intervene?

[Northern Dominus]

It's funny, I was bullied a little bit in grade school and junior high. Of course people learned very quickly I would hurl insult for insult and fist for fist when prodded so that sort of thing never lasted long courtesy of a little coaching from my dad and a few uncles, plus despite the isolation tactics I made friends pretty easily. That sort of thing stuck with me though, and throughout high school I tended to be the anti-bully. The guy that used his (relative) popularity as sort of a shield against bullies, and when that didn't work the guy who wasn't afraid to bounce their heads against the lockers a couple of times to get the point across. The fact that I grew up in a relatively rough neighborhood and eventually moved out to the 'burbs where the students were less likely to be armed didn't hurt either.
So I guess bullying did change me somewhat. I learned to dislike people picking on those who couldn't defend themselves and to be fearless when confronting those assailants.

Now in the end was that a good thing? No it wasn't. Despite being a decent student athlete I was benched for several baseball games and swim meets because I got into fights during school hours, leaving my teammates to carry the load. There was one instance where I beat an assailant so badly that his family threatened to sue my family, stopped only by the intervention of a local pastor who learned about what happened. Even today I feel that wellspring of indignation and rage well up at the mere implication of bullying in some fashion. People could say it was all worth it because I was doing it to other students who "deserved" it, but that record possibly affected my chances at getting scholarships during my senior year, and it was never becoming or worthy of my mental acumen to simply punch some jerk when I could have thought my way out of it and only hit them as a last resort.

Even if it's not much bullying does change people, even the ones who seem to be able to weather the storm. I'm neither ashamed nor am I proud of what I did, but I've come to recognize that it's not a good thing, not by any stretch of logic or emotional appeal.

[Northern Dominus]

My question is, though, with all the advancements in the psychology field, is it an advisable thing to use Freud's theories of the subconscious?

I was not trying to actually diagnose a condition, simply to raise the possibility that a condition might exist that the conscious mind is entirely and utterly unaware of. Also, to be frank, I'm not well-versed in modern psychotherapy, but I do know that many modern psychologists use similar systems of psychoanalysis. Thus, while the original Freudian interpretation of psychology (i.e.: if you like engaging in oral sex, you weren't breastfed enough) is little more than a mind-exercise today, plenty of psychologists still lend weight to the power of the subconscious mind and its role in shaping how we perceive, behave, and think.

Freud is the base so I get where you're going.

It's sort of like a cool car for sale at a low price. Looks great, no apparent maladies, but little do you know that it was in a pretty bad wreck and the frame has several cracks that aren't readily apparent to the naked eye. Whether or not one of them gives entirely is a matter of just how much damage was done in the first place.

Edit: that would be car you idiot, not care.