Bullying, damaging or helpful?

[Itanica]

And no, why should I go and spend money to prove nothing is wrong with me just so I can prove someone on an internet forum wrong?

Because you based a fundamental aspect of your argument on a personal anecdote and, specifically, an assumption within that anecdote which nobody without a degree or residency in Psychology/Psychiatry/Child-Development is qualified to make.

You're telling me that if I said right now that you have Downs Syndrome, you would march down to the doctor and get a test - just to prove me wrong? While the thought of that is charming, I just don't feel the necessity to do that myself.

[Itanica]

Well if your knowledge on diagnosing cancer is just "is there a lump there", fair enough. But not me. If I was going to try and diagnose cancer on myself (As a preliminary to visiting an actual doctor of course), I would take all of the symptoms I know for cancer and try and put them all together to try and form a rough idea.

I probably will visit a psychiatrist at some point in life, but I am fairly confident I suffer from nothing. And if the effects are not visible and not even known to myself, I'm in no hurry.
Anyone who wishes to continue debating with me, take it to TG as this is slowly derailing.

First, your statement actually supports my argument. Even if you do extensive research on cancer, no self-diagnosis you make will mean anything until a doctor confirms it. Likewise, no matter what you think you know about psychological trauma and verbal bullying, you're simply not qualified to tell anybody that your psychological health is tip-top.

Until you come across a third-party expert who can confirm your amateur self-diagnosis, your personal anecdote is meaningless to me. Don't use it as part of an argument suggesting that people who suffer from psychological trauma via verbal bullying are weak.

Use actual evidence supported by actual facts that can be supported by actual efforts. This is a very basic, rudimentary rule of any intellectual debate.

By my definition of weak, they are weak. For example, there is no universal definition for how much you have to be able to bench press to be weak or strong, etc. By my definition of mentally weak, these people are mentally weak.

[Itanica]

Oh wow. People are naturally defensive - especially males. A great example is when someone calls you ugly over the internet. Even if they had never seen you before, you would get defensive and try and prove you are not ugly. Would it mean you are in denial about being ugly?
Defensiveness is not a sign of denial. It's almost as flawed as the "Only gay people call people gay" argument. It just makes no sense.

Prior to me realizing I was bi, I used to get extremely defensive about being called gay. I had myself convinced I was the straightest man on earth. After I realized I was bi, and accepted it, I really stopped giving a fuck if people called me gay or not, if they weren't obviously trying to harrass me about it.

As for the ugly part, I'll be the first to admit I'm not very attractive.

I've never heard of the underlined argument.

Where are you from?
Where I am from, it's very commonplace to say "You are only calling him gay because you are gay yourself!".

[Itanica]

How many of those people you asked are psychologists?

If you really want to, then go on ahead, let him/her pick your brains clean. While you're at it, get your brain scanned so that you can prove you have no abnormal brain structures. But, nobody's holding a gun to your head to do so.

It seems that you're being really, really defensive about the subject of there being absolutely no negative effects on your personality/brain structure due to your bullying experience. As I said before, I'm not a professional, but I seem to recall extreme defensiveness to be a sign of denial.

The more amusing thing is that defensiveness is, of course, a defense mechanism to shield from, say, mental torment.
He's self-evidently weak under his own definition, because it is quite clear we're affecting him. =T

Oh no, you are most certainly not getting to me. Don't think that you are.

http://www.education.com/reference/article/Ref_What_Happens_Over/?page=2

That's from http://www.education.com.

Relevant things to quote:

Memories of childhood teasing are associated with high rates of depression, social anxiety, pathological perfectionism, and greater neuroticism in adulthood.

When you look at the content of how adults describe their childhood victimization experiences, it does appear that over time many victims report a reduction in their hurt feelings (for example, less unhappiness, decreased shame).

Yet, for those who consider the bullying to be extremely painful, the troubling feelings continue with reported long-term negative effects on both personality and attitudes. In short, childhood bullying is a highly memorable experience and recollections of these events show no evidence of forgetting.

Researchers have noticed that, although with time, the memory of being bullied and the pain associated with it decrease, the experience is never forgotten.

Furthermore:

For those who are bullied...

One researcher to address this question is Dan Olweus who followed a small group of his Norwegian sample (15 victims, 56 non-victims, all males; 1993) and found that being victimized in grades 6 and 9 could be linked to greater depression and lower self-esteem at 23 years of age.

Yes, it can link to depression and whatnot. But it does not always, which is the point I am trying to make.
In regards to the whole "it is never forgotten" thing, I don't forget much things at all. Of course I am going to remember the bullying, I have a good memory. I also remember everything that happened around that.
All things are forgotten eventually. Bullying will surely be a bolder memory, but to me it is not that big of a deal. It was part of my life and I have to accept that.

[Itanica]

So, by YOUR definition of psychological trauma, you don't have it, and by YOUR definition of psychologically-fragile, victims of verbally bulling are psychologically-fragile?

Well, forgive me if I don't really care what you think, because, unless you use Psychology Today as a bathroom reader and/or shadow a Psychiatrist as part of a Pre-Medical internship, I doubt you have the perspective or the expertise to attach remotely qualified or informed definitions to either of those terms.

Yeah, he said awhile ago that it is his definition, and admitted it is contrived and circular.
Which is why this is pointless, talking to him. He's fallen back on circular arguments and the ability to summon warped definitions into play to always make himself right.

No, just no.

I'm sure a guy like this considers someone like this guy's max bench press to be really low, even though to the latter it is really high. Weakness has no universal set rule, everyone defines weak in different ways - That's a fact.
I never gave my own definition to psychological trauma anyway, you are twisting my words.

By my definition of weak, they are weak.

I have a question. What makes your definition of weak so definitive? Shouldn't we be using a contextually relevant, objective definition of weak, as opposed to a subjective one?

Even better example, actually.
Someone says you have Downs Syndrome. You know you don't have it, and you try and prove you don't. You get pretty defensive. But you don't actually go and get tested just to prove them wrong, do you? Even if you are not qualified to determine if you have it?

Actually, I wouldn't get defensive at all. If somebody told me I have it, I would tell them that I highly doubt I have it, but I can't rule it out, and that I'll seriously consider having myself tested for it as soon as my financial circumstances improve.

One of my closest friends was born with Downs Syndrome, but you actually wouldn't know it by the way she acts.

Also, your statement that I would get defensive about not having Downs Syndrome seems to imply that there is something bad about people who have it...

Where are you from?
Where I am from, it's very commonplace to say "You are only calling him gay because you are gay yourself!".

I'm from the US. Specifically born in Tennessee, and raised in Louisiana. I've heard the sentiment behind the statement, but never used that often.

Even better example, actually.
Someone says you have Downs Syndrome. You know you don't have it, and you try and prove you don't. You get pretty defensive. But you don't actually go and get tested just to prove them wrong, do you? Even if you are not qualified to determine if you have it?

Actually, I wouldn't get defensive at all. If somebody told me I have it, I would tell them that I highly doubt I have it, but I can't rule it out, and that I'll seriously consider having myself tested for it as soon as my financial circumstances improve.

One of my closest friends was born with Downs Syndrome, but you actually wouldn't know it by the way she acts.

Also, your statement that I would get defensive about not having Downs Syndrome seems to imply that there is something bad about people who have it...

Then you are an exception.

Provide me with a contextually relevant, objective definition of weak then.

[Itanica]

Oh no, you are most certainly not getting to me. Don't think that you are.


Yes, it can link to depression and whatnot. But it does not always, which is the point I am trying to make.
In regards to the whole "it is never forgotten" thing, I don't forget much things at all. Of course I am going to remember the bullying, I have a good memory. I also remember everything that happened around that.
All things are forgotten eventually. Bullying will surely be a bolder memory, but to me it is not that big of a deal. It was part of my life and I have to accept that.

And we have been saying to you that your personal anecdote, although 'compelling' to you, is not a sustainable claim. You said words can't hurt, and the truth is that yes, they do and their effects are lasting. Being 'weak' or 'strong' isn't either a proper way to categorize since it is well known that anyone can be a victim of bullying. Peer reviewed articles and studies stand as background, solid, for that.

I already admitted my first position on "words cannot hurt" is wrong.

Yes, anyone can be a victim of bullying. Strong and weak people can be victims. The strong people deal with it and take it on the chin, the weak people either become stronger or stay weak and let it get to them.

[Itanica]

I already admitted my first position on "words cannot hurt" is wrong.

Yes, anyone can be a victim of bullying. Strong and weak people can be victims. The strong people deal with it and take it on the chin, the weak people either become stronger or stay weak and let it get to them.

See, that last part is what makes this whole circular argument of yours total piffle. A strong person can still suffer lasting damage from having being bullied.

I can't help but think that you just want to remain willfully ignorant of this, and that no matter how many sources are provided to you, you already made your mind. And oh what a narrow minded approach it has been.

If you are verbally bullied in the sense that you are ganged up on 24/7, then you don't have to be weak for it to get to you. You are just very strong if it doesn't
If you are verbally bullied moderately, 1 or 2 people regularly insulting you, and it gets to you - You are mentally weak.

Is that a more precise definition for you?

[Itanica]

You're telling me that if I said right now that you have Downs Syndrome, you would march down to the doctor and get a test - just to prove me wrong? While the thought of that is charming, I just don't feel the necessity to do that myself.

I've been to the doctor, and actually lived with a Pediatrician for 17 years of my life. Also, my parents did all the pre-birth and infant-age tests for virtually any condition you can think of, including the pre-natal test for Downs Syndrome.

I don't have it. Find another condition to use as an example. Again, I lived with a doctor for 17 years. I've been subjected every medical, psychological, and developmental test you can think of.

So, if you can think of a condition that would actually require me to book yet another visit to the doctor and/or psychologist in order to demonstrate that I don't have it, please, fire away.

You probably have Cancer. It's very possible.
Prove me wrong.

[Itanica]

If you are verbally bullied in the sense that you are ganged up on 24/7, then you don't have to be weak for it to get to you. You are just very strong if it doesn't
If you are verbally bullied moderately, 1 or 2 people regularly insulting you, and it gets to you - You are mentally weak.

Is that a more precise definition for you?

More precise? Sure.
Still self-fulfilling and circular and arbitrary? Yup.
Still pointless? Yup.

Define mentally weak and mentally strong for me, if you're so sure you have a better way of explaining it.

I am very strong mentally, so my standards are high. The same applies to physical strength. I will often be asked to lift something for someone, I will pick it up and it will be easy to me. I will be thinking "This is so light, they are weak!" Even though probably it is quite heavy, and my standards for strong and weak are just high because I am physically strong.

[Itanica]

You probably have Cancer. It's very possible.
Prove me wrong.

Only the weak get cancer.
I am not weak.
Thus, I do not have cancer, and thus I am not weak.

Touché my friend, touché.

[Itanica]

Touché my friend, touché.

Glad to hear it. Do you understand now?

Yes, but that was merely just an extension to my main argument - That bullying is not always damaging. I stand firm in my point there. It is not always damaging.

[Itanica]

Then you are an exception.

Provide me with a contextually relevant, objective definition of weak then.

Maybe I am, maybe I'm not.

If you are verbally bullied in the sense that you are ganged up on 24/7, then you don't have to be weak for it to get to you. You are just very strong if it doesn't
If you are verbally bullied moderately, 1 or 2 people regularly insulting you, and it gets to you - You are mentally weak.

Is that a more precise definition for you?

As has been said, its still circular, but it is better than the previously used definition. You seem to be neglecting the degree of the abuse.

If 1 or 2 people are insulting you, and it is of a level that makes Fred Phelps look polite, and it gets to you, then I wouldn't consider that to be weak at all. Quite the opposite, in fact.

If an entire group of people (10 or more) are constantly harrassing you, in minor ways, and it gets to you- then how would you classify that?

I would class it as like a group of young children running around me. Really annoying, but easily ignorable.
I assume by "minor ways" you mean things like getting called a dickhead or asshole, just petty words.

[Itanica]

You probably have Cancer. It's very possible.
Prove me wrong.

Great. I'm glad you came up with one I couldn't refute, because it actually brings me to my next point.

I admit that I may have cancer. Sure, I could Google the symptoms and tell you "I don't have it", and that would be it. But, see, there's no way of being certain until I go to the doctor to get full-body scans and colonoscopies and everything else they do. I am not qualified to make that diagnosis. In fact, by choosing not to go to the doctor to get checked up, I'm taking a risk that I may have cancer and am giving it time to develop, grow, and metastasize. However, that is a risk I'm taking, and, until a doctor performs all the necessary tests, I can't tell you, "No, dude, you're wrong. I don't have cancer."

So, until you go to a psychiatrist who can look you in the eye and say, "No, sir, you do not have psychological trauma resulting from your childhood experiences of bullying," I insist that you concede the point. Even if you Google the symptoms of psychological trauma and try to pull off an amateur self-diagnosis, there is absolutely no way to be sure that you don't have psychological trauma until an expert tells you so.

Thus, your argument that "I went through verbal bullying and I'm not traumatized" is flawed, because you're not qualified to say you're not, and nobody who is qualified agrees with you at this moment. A more accurate statement is that "I went through verbal bullying, and I don't think I'm traumatized, but I haven't seen a psychiatrist about that yet, so I might be wrong." Which, in case you didn't notice, weakens your argument significantly.

If you read a few posts back, I have already said that "I may visit a psychiatrist later in life, but I am very confident I don't have it"
Not 100% certain, more like 99% certain.

Mental trauma is nowhere near as big a deal as cancer, so I am in no big hurry to get checked out, especially as it is unnoticed, even including by myself.

[Itanica]

If you read a few posts back, I have already said that "I may visit a psychiatrist later in life, but I am very confident I don't have it"
Not 100% certain, more like 99% certain.

Mental trauma is nowhere near as big a deal as cancer, so I am in no big hurry to get checked out, especially as it is unnoticed, even including by myself.

People commit suicide because of mental trauma. Seems pretty serious to me.

I feel no mental trauma, and have no such thoughts, thus it is not a big deal in my case and I am in no hurry to get myself checked out.

People commit suicide because of mental trauma. Seems pretty serious to me.

He'll probably tell you that they commit suicide because they were weak.

Perhaps you should read the last few pages over, you will see that I have changed my position on that quite clearly.

[Itanica]

I feel no mental trauma, and have no such thoughts, thus it is not a big deal in my case and I am in no hurry to get myself checked out.


Perhaps you should read the last few pages over, you will see that I have changed my position on that quite clearly.

So you have finally accepted that it is not a matter of perceptions of weakness or strength? And that everyone can be a victim of bullying?

If so, bravo. Quite the improvement from your original stance. This doesn't happen often on NSG.

I'm an intellectual person, I know when to admit I've been bested.

I feel no mental trauma, and have no such thoughts, thus it is not a big deal in my case and I am in no hurry to get myself checked out.

A psychoanalyst will tell you that you're not even qualified to say that you "have no such thoughts."

Psychology is a pretty complicated and intricate field, and everything you're doing -- self-diagnosis, judgments about psychological trauma, your failure to acknowledge the subconscious as a powerful driving force behind human thought and motivation -- indicates to me not only that you are unqualified to speak about psychological trauma, but even less qualified than unqualified folks like me.

I haven't had any issues for years and years, it isn't going to change in the blink of an eye. If it did get worse, it would deteriorate over time - And I would notice.

[Jennjenn]

I think it depends on the person whether it benefits them or not. But there are OTHER ways to gain confidence and strength, and bullied children don't have the option to which method they want to use to learn lifelong confidence, and if they can't learn it the bully's way, many give up. By give up, I mean die.

You can't completely eradicate bullying. You can't stop many dangers of the world, and you can't win them all. The worst case of depression and suicidal thoughts and actions I've ever seen in anybody (a truly AWFUL, DREADFUL 9 months of talking them out of suicide) was caused by a bad side effect of allergy meds happening at the wrong time in someone's life. (Seriously, people- the most innocent of meds have side effects, too. Read them.)

Almost anything, potentially beneficial or not can harm someone. Have we learned nothing from Hermione's Time Turner? All actions have consequences, good or bad.

The way to stop the pain caused by bullying and many other things is for people to be taught the symptoms of someone depressed and suicidal, and know what to do in that situation. And we must encourage people to find their own way in the world.

[Jennjenn]

Harm to me includes the intent to cause harm...

Anything that hurts anyone, mentally or physically, and/or the intent to do so.

And harming no one is how I try to live my life, so I think about it a lot. Things can have unintended consequences, good or bad.

[Jennjenn]

Harmful to an extent, but I really think that all this anti-bullying shit is foolish. Kids need to toughen up, not wimp out.

Take your social Darwinism and shove it up your arse, with that logic disabled people should be left to die because they are unable to fend for themselves. -_-

Some people don't want to defend themselves- I didn't.

I took it and it did not help me one bit. I took karate beforehand, but wasn't prepared for the mental kind of pain.

That was 4 years ago. Still isn't all good today. Luckily, due to a well-timed development of a phobia of death, I was okay- then...

It didn't help me, but it might help some. That doesn't excuse it. People don't get to choose if that's how they learn. Taking away free will is something I consider harm.

[Johz]

Corporal punishment. Capital punishment is execution.

And no. Seeing as many of the people who bullied me were teachers, I'd rather not allow them to bully people physically as well as emotionally.

What? I know. Kill them if they can't do their times tables haha!

But yes, apologies, slip of the finger.

But I always thought the threat of the slipper helped me a great deal in my education.

I've never been so sure. I have a great relationship with my parents, and it was never founded on being beaten or threatened. Sure, there was the step, but never the need to cause physical harm.

[JuNii]

I fail to see how bullying = group unification.

People ganging up to bully someone else. I've seen that happen.

^ This.

question... do you consider this bullying?
http://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/20 ... gets-them/

why or why not?

[JuNii]

^ This.

question... do you consider this bullying?
http://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/20 ... gets-them/

why or why not?

Which part? The part where the three girls vandalize the sidewalk, or the part where Lovitz tweets about it?

I was thinking about Lovitz's actions...

[Karonmo]

I was bullied since like grade 4 i think. The thing that really got me though was that it seemed NOBODY CARED!. Seriously the school-board i went to had a way of having a bunch of idiots in it was my reaction to it. Now usually i am very patient but after two years of it straight i finally snapped. Didn't do much though since of the absolute stupidity of the rules again. Then i went to another school in the same board. Same problem different faces. Then grade seven i realized they were all a bunch of cowards and when i slammed one of the idiots face into a desk they stayed away from me. Now what i gained from it was.
1. Knowing how to spot a troublemaker
2. How to spot when someone is hiding someone.
3. gaining a generally nicer person all around.
and most importantly being more communicative.

[Kazarogkai]

Bullying toughens up the kid and teaches them to have thicker skin and stop being a thin skinned little weakling makes them learn to stand up for themselves rather than be sheep, and weeds out the weaklings. It made me stronger and taught me to fight back, that others words and thoughts of me unless they were useful to me were simply dirt and that all people unless they are useful to me are simply lower than dirt and to not care about what they say about me unless it directly effects me. Also taught me to never trust anyone always watch my back and fight tooth and nail for myself and myself alone, no one ever came to help me and i learned nobody was going to help me and i learned i must only help myself unless i directly benefit from helping them they are useless to me and to simply ignore them. I don't have my father in my life so i need to fend for myself, I'm the perfect bullying target i go to school in a relatively wealthy neighborhood and i am poor, also I'm an African-American and i have red hair, black eyebrows, and blonde mustache so i was a pretty good target for people until i showed them what happens if they mess with me. when i was in Elementary it was either 2nd or 3rd grade after school this one little slut kept on pushing me in the mud, she would when i wasn't looking run up behind me push me on the ground run away to a safe distance then laugh at me, one day she forgot to run to a safe distance and just laughed at me when i got back up and turned around she was smiling this annoying little smile so i punched her in the face, and then threw her in the mud i preceded to bite and choke on her neck until one of the adults hit me over the head with a plank, from then on everyone knew if you mess with me I'm going to mess you up badly. "Survival of the fittest" animals in the wild have predators to get rid of the weak, we humans have Bully's.

[Kazarogkai]

Bullying toughens up the kid and teaches them to have thicker skin and stop being a thin skinned little weakling makes them learn to stand up for themselves rather than be sheep, and weeds out the weaklings. It made me stronger and taught me to fight back, that others words and thoughts of me unless they were useful to me were simply dirt and that all people unless they are useful to me are simply lower than dirt and to not care about what they say about me unless it directly effects me. Also taught me to never trust anyone always watch my back and fight tooth and nail for myself and myself alone, no one ever came to help me and i learned nobody was going to help me and i learned i must only help myself unless i directly benefit from helping them they are useless to me and to simply ignore them. I don't have my father in my life so i need to fend for myself, I'm the perfect bullying target i go to school in a relatively wealthy neighborhood and i am poor, also I'm an African-American and i have red hair, black eyebrows, and blonde mustache so i was a pretty good target for people until i showed them what happens if they mess with me. when i was in Elementary it was either 2nd or 3rd grade after school this one little slut kept on pushing me in the mud, she would when i wasn't looking run up behind me push me on the ground run away to a safe distance then laugh at me, one day she forgot to run to a safe distance and just laughed at me when i got back up and turned around she was smiling this annoying little smile so i punched her in the face, and then threw her in the mud i preceded to bite and choke on her neck until one of the adults hit me over the head with a plank, from then on everyone knew if you mess with me I'm going to mess you up badly. "Survival of the fittest" animals in the wild have predators to get rid of the weak, we humans have Bully's.

Bite and choke her on the neck? Granted, I do wish I could kill all those who stood in my way, but this isn't the jungle here.

life is a jungle when you are a loner and have to fend for yourself.

[Kazarogkai]

You think i'm a sociopath? well ok, i see no problem with that if you wish to call me a sociopath well fine call me a sociopath if you wish. but just to see if i am a true socipath lest look at the medical definition of sociopath.

Antisocial personality disorder(sociopath)
It is characterized by at least 3 of the following:

1. Callous unconcern for the feelings of others
2. Gross and persistent attitude of irresponsibility and disregard for social norms, rules, and obligations.
3.Incapacity to maintain enduring relationships, though having no difficulty in establishing them
4.Very low tolerance to frustration and a low threshold for discharge of aggression, including violence.
5.Incapacity to experience guilt or to profit from experience, particularly punishment.
6.Markedly prone to blame others or to offer plausible rationalizations for the behavior that has brought the person into conflict with society

well i admit i am pretty strongly # 1, depending on the circumstances #2 because if i do not agree with them and they go against my own i will generally not care to follow them, i am half of #3, and i am also half of #5. well i guess i am a sociopath...Yay?