Bullying, damaging or helpful?

[Ironmacedonia]

If bullying is beneficial, then I propose we have teachers smack around every child, every day. Anyone who dies or is injured was obviously too weak, so whatevs.

I do think light corporal punishment in the classroom was a good thing, but what you have suggested there is ludicrous, children are bullied by other children and that will always happen, but if kids learned that by getting stronger and standing up to their tormentors they could stop them, they would no doubt be better people because of it.

[Ironmacedonia]

Bullying is incredibly damaging. There are literally dozens and dozens of studies detailing at some length how emotionally and psychologically damaging it is. Quite frankly, the people who say kids need to 'toughen up' or that bullying has somehow 'made them stronger' are either repeating tired old stereotypes that do nothing but promote an uncaring, barbaric worldview or are either purposely or accidentally ignorant.

I'm not just saying I am a better person because I was bullied, I know I am.

I am not ignorant to the horrors of bullying, but I think perhaps my case was severe enough to cause action, perhaps low level psychological bullying is worse than awful physical bullying.

[Ironmacedonia]

I do think light capital punishment in the classroom was a good thing, but what you have suggested there is ludicrous, children are bullied by other children and that will always happen, but if kids learned that by getting stronger and standing up to their tormentors they could stop them, they would no doubt be better people because of it.

Corporal punishment. Capital punishment is execution.

And no. Seeing as many of the people who bullied me were teachers, I'd rather not allow them to bully people physically as well as emotionally.

What? I know. Kill them if they can't do their times tables haha!

But yes, apologies, slip of the finger.

But I always thought the threat of the slipper helped me a great deal in my education.

[Ironmacedonia]

Well I managed, perhaps you just couldn't hack it.

I don't care about your personal stories because I know them all, I went through it and I stood up, just because you laid down and took it doesn't mean I'm wrong.

If you don't want to hear our opinions, don't post here. Simple.

How does defending my opinion suggest I don't wish to hear yours.

I threw the notion that bullying was good out there not because I wholeheartedly advocate it, but because I think it is often perceived as an undoubtedly bad thing, when there are a few people who are stronger for it.

I am saying I don't want to hear your personal stories, because I want you to stick to opinions.

"Bullying is bad because I felt horrible" doesn't cut it.

[Ironmacedonia]

I'm not so sure, to be blunt. Anyone who claims to be a 'psychopath' in a positive sense (And in doing so insulting people who are actually sufferers of psychopathy) was probably not benefitted by the experience.

I have said this before, It is not the phrase I would have used but as I was telling a story, I used it in reference to the things my friends called me in jest to add to the story. I got stronger and fought back when people tried to pick on me until they stopped, and I did, my friends called me a 'psychopath' because we were teenagers for Christ's sake.

Physical bullying is equally studied to psychological bullying, and equally as damaging. There literally is no upside to bullying, however much the authoritarian fetishists here want there to be.

And that is your opinion based on reading articles, I have an opinion that contradicts that based on experience.

I know I benefited from the experience, and if I have some long term psychological problem, I don't know what people are complaining about because I love my life.

[Ironmacedonia]

But yes, apologies, slip of the finger.

But I always thought the threat of the slipper helped me a great deal in my education.

I've been through a school with corporal punishment. No and hell no! I remember trembling in fear after being accused of doing some little thing. I've seen kids whose parents hit them. They wore it like badge of honour. After a while they'd just numb up or get more fucked up.

I was hit with the slipper for not handing in homework once and I remember it with such clarity, because I never failed to hand it in on time again.

I never feared the slipper after that because I knew I would try my hardest and as long as I did that I wouldn't be subject to the punishment again, perhaps I was a fast learner, but I don't remember many children getting the slipper too often, most children would be punished, and be steered straight.

[Ironmacedonia]

Your personal experience decisively proves that bullying is the fault of the bullied for inviting it. Just like those so-called "rape victim" sluts. Clap clap.

Rape toughens women up. Truefax.

For goodness sake, I never talked about sexual abuse and I wouldn't like to because I haven't been sexually assaulted, but I have been bullied and it did made me stronger.

Sexual assault is not the same as school-yard bullying,

[Ironmacedonia]

And that is your opinion based on reading articles, I have an opinion that contradicts that based on experience.

I know I benefited from the experience, and if I have some long term psychological problem, I don't know what people are complaining about because I love my life.

You don't seem to get it. Your single personal experience does not discount the fact that every other source says bullying does nothing but damage. You say you got over it (a dubious claim, but I digress), good for you. Not everyone does. It's not the victim's fault for getting bullied, and bullies need to be punished accordingly.

I have said that before, my personal account does not prove anything, but it casts doubt, and that is all that is needed for debate.

[Ironmacedonia]

I was hit with the slipper for not handing in homework once and I remember it with such clarity, because I never failed to hand it in on time again.

I never feared the slipper after that because I knew I would try my hardest and as long as I did that I wouldn't be subject to the punishment again, perhaps I was a fast learner, but I don't remember many children getting the slipper too often, most children would be punished, and be steered straight.

Then your school was lax with it. The school I went to used a variety of techniques, although it was most common for a cord flogging or a rubber club. We all lived in fear because if you stepped out of line or didn't live up to every single little standard the administration had, you'd be savagely beaten. My nose was broken for the first time by a school administrator with a rubber club.

Bloody hell, where were you brought up? Imperial Japan!

[Ironmacedonia]

I have said that before, my personal account does not prove anything, but it casts doubt, and that is all that is needed for debate.

Once, some guy fell off a tall building and lived. This casts doubt on whether falling off tall building is damaging.

Uh no, it casts doubt up weather falling of a building is fatal.

[Ironmacedonia]

I have said that before, my personal account does not prove anything, but it casts doubt, and that is all that is needed for debate.

Given the subject matter, not nearly enough doubt. Therein lies the problem.

Well enough doubt to spark over 100 replies.

[IshCong]

Sometimes people need to be made aware of their weaknesses, limitations, and negative or unappealing traits, lest they live in ignorance of them to the point where they find themselves in more socially awkward or even more harmful situations than that created by the realization being made by another party. If a kid smells like roadkill because he won't wear deoderant, tell him. You don't have to be a dick about it, but inform him of it and suggest he start using something to mask the smell. At the end of the day, you'll be doing the guy a favor. If anything, he might thank you for it. Things like that are completely fine, although they should be one time deals, or few and far between at most.

Constructive criticism, handled in a polite and mature manner, is good.

That being said, that is not to say that such people need to be made aware of these things, or worse, teased for them, through physical force or through persistent acts of verbal insults.

Nobody should have to put up with that, especially not on a regular basis.

Bullying is bad.

[IshCong]

Constructive criticism, handled in a polite and mature manner, is good.



Bullying is bad.

There's 'constructive criticism'..then there's being an a**hole about something you don't like.

"handled in a polite and mature manner"

Constructive criticism, handled in a polite and mature manner, is good.



Bullying is bad.

Yes, my point exactly.

I know. I was agreeing with you.

[IshCong]

"handled in a polite and mature manner"



I know. I was agreeing with you.

So tell me...PJ.....how many people on Facebook Nations handle things in a 'polite and mature manner'?? HMMM

When faced with a polite and mature counterpart that responds in a generally friendly and accepting manner to RP/OOC talk/etc? Most people.
When faced with an impolite, belligerent troll that refuses to listen to a word that is said, that repeatedly ignores even those who try to help, and that repeatedly responds in rude ways to others? Far fewer people.

[IshCong]

When faced with a polite and mature counterpart that responds in a generally friendly and accepting manner to RP/OOC talk/etc? Most people.
When faced with an impolite, belligerent troll that refuses to listen to a word that is said, that repeatedly ignores even those who try to help, and that repeatedly responds in rude ways to others? Far fewer people.

my foe (troll) list rivals the great wall of china
The only thing that bothers me is I still can see the nonsense they spew out if they're quoted by someone not on my ignore list.

The Great IGNORE Wall of Zephie?

[IshCong]

When faced with a polite and mature counterpart that responds in a generally friendly and accepting manner to RP/OOC talk/etc? Most people.
When faced with an impolite, belligerent troll that refuses to listen to a word that is said, that repeatedly ignores even those who try to help, and that repeatedly responds in rude ways to others? Far fewer people.

Yea ok....even after trying to resolve the matter of my Nations character's death or not death....YOU ESPECIALLY was less than polite and mature about your responses....which is why I've long ago decided to simply do things my own way in Nations.

Oh? Last I heard, you weren't even debating that death. I was unaware this had changed. I'm also not entirely sure about to what you refer...

[IshCong]

This question may seem to have an obvious answer, and I'm sure a lot of you will be quick to get on the moral high ground and say what any normal person would "Bullying is mentally damaging, physically damaging, dangerous..." and so on, however I pose another answer to this question, one that a lot of the victims of bullying would be appalled by.

I was bullied myself, in my younger years, but because we didn't have the internet to hide behind and insult each other over, it was often done face to face, and that gave the victim a chance to stand up for themselves. After about 6 years of putting up with it, and by the age of 12/13 I started lifting weights, using our gym, I took some self defence classes, and in about 4 years I had made the transition from the bullied little child, to the psychopath nobody dared touch, and I tell you my friends, the sense of achievement I got from it, well it made me want to walk over to my old bullies and shake their hands!

You see, I used to be quite the 'geek' and I found that when I grew stronger and was better able to defend myself, I felt far less worried about using my knowledge in the classroom, my marks increased, I got better CSE's and I did rather well when it came to higher education as well, and I genuinely thank the bullies that allowed me to stand up for myself and rise above them.

People might say that it would have been better if I was never bullied in the first place, but once again I disagree, not only is completely eliminating bullying near impossible, but I am glad I was shown the harsh realities of life as I left school far more prepared, if I had not been subject to seven or eight years of physical bullying, I would've left school a sheltered little child, unprepared for what life was to throw at me and I don't think I would be where I am now, in fact I don't even know if I'd be alive.

When I was in my early twenties, I had stayed the week in Cardiff and was on my way to catch a train home, it was late at night and I was on a secluded pathway when a youth, probably about 18 or 19, approached me from behind he must have hit me in the back of the head, as I stumbled forward only just managing to remain on my feet, I was about to strike back when I noticed he was holding a knife, I managed to grab his wrist and turn his arm violently back on itself, I don't know if I broke anything but the young man, if I remember correctly kicked back into my shin and I fell on the floor, he must have ran off because by the time I got back up, the youth was gone, the police never caught him and I can't remember what he looks like at all, but it was 20 odd years ago.

What I am saying it, if I had not been bullied, not taken self defence classes, not lifted weights, I highly doubt I would have been able to disarm that child and may possibly have been stabbed, it's a thought that makes me shudder, but also causes me to ask this question.

Bullying, damaging or helpful?

Ah perfect timing, finished writing this just as my takeaway arrived, I shall reply later.

It's a formative experience, that may not be a good thing.

Physcial bullying is much more likely to be helpful. Emotional and mantal bullying, I doubt it I severely do.

How is physically bullying someone helpful, again?

[IshCong]

How is physically bullying someone helpful, again?

I said, it is more likely to be helpful. The harm here is relatively easy to avoid and is short term.

Okay, so how is it helpful then? You say it is more likely to help. How does it help?
What of the inherent interconnection between physical bullying and emotional bullying? Being beaten tends to result in both psychological and physical damages.
In many cases, it isn't easy to avoid, if for no other reason than deliberate predation of a specific individual. Likewise, in many cases, the harm is not short term at all, in part due to the connections between the physical and mental states of a person, and in part due to the fact that severe beatings can linger for months.

[IshCong]

Okay, so how is it helpful then? You say it is more likely to help. How does it help?
What of the inherent interconnection between physical bullying and emotional bullying? Being beaten tends to result in both psychological and physical damages.
In many cases, it isn't easy to avoid, if for no other reason than deliberate predation of a specific individual. Likewise, in many cases, the harm is not short term at all, in part due to the connections between the physical and mental states of a person, and in part due to the fact that severe beatings can linger for months.

Outlined by and in the OP.

Then I say it has stopped being physical harm and therefore is not physical bullying. If it is in the mind of the bullied only, it's probably a sign of deeper insecurities.

Physically destroying somebody is not helpful in the least. The OP made a good argument for encouraging people to exercise regularly, not for beating on them until they have to bulk up just so they stop bleeding all over the floor tiles.

I didn't say it was in the mind of the bullied only. I pointed out that getting beat on is going to result in psychological damages as well. You think getting slapped around doesn't change the self-image one has, or their psyche?

[IshCong]

Physically destroying somebody is not helpful in the least. The OP made a good argument for encouraging people to exercise regularly, not for beating on them until they have to bulk up just so they stop bleeding all over the floor tiles.

I didn't say it was in the mind of the bullied only. I pointed out that getting beat on is going to result in psychological damages as well. You think getting slapped around doesn't change the self-image one has, or their psyche?

Again, my post seems to have been interpreted as suggesting violence is the correct answer here. Why?

Then I say it is emotional bullying not physical bullying. Or, if you won't accept that than physio-emotional bullying... If the emotional damage is entirely the result of the bullied's ideas (which I didn't say you thought) then I feel that there is a deeper issue that needs attention. Straight out physical bullying is more likely to be helpful. That is not to say it will, won't be or anything other than it can be helpful.

No, you suggested it was helpful. It's not. It's detrimental.

Emotional bullying and physical bullying can't be separated like that. They go hand in hand, and the latter induces and contributes to the former, always.
The emotional damage caused isn't just the result of the victim's ideas, it's the result of being beaten on as an external stimulus. The 'deeper issue' is that people are physically assaulting somebody, and they aren't exactly reacting well to that (go figure).

[IshCong]

No, you suggested it was helpful. It's not. It's detrimental.

Emotional bullying and physical bullying can't be separated like that. They go hand in hand, and the latter induces and contributes to the former, always.
The emotional damage caused isn't just the result of the victim's ideas, it's the result of being beaten on as an external stimulus. The 'deeper issue' is that people are physically assaulting somebody, and they aren't exactly reacting well to that (go figure).

They can and I have. The problem you have is assuming that bullying is always massive; that's when it is difficult or even negligent to split them.

Notice the word IF. It should occupy some of your attention when dealing with that post. The word ENTIRELY should also be worked in their.

Again, you seem to misunderstand me. Looking at one word and trying to use it to summarise my points won't work because then it is no longer my point, is it?

Note, these posts of mine are becoming more abrasive. Please focus on these points so I don't have to report myself.

No, when the bullying isn't 'massive', that just makes the effects smaller, it doesn't remove them entirely.

My entire post was dedicated to showing how your presumed IF/ENTIRELY scenario simply doesn't apply in the real world. "If the emotional damage is entirely the result of the bullied's ideas" is a very contrived scenario. The emotional damage is the result of the physical torment which translates immediately into mental torment because the mind and body are not separable. Every external physical stimulus results in a mental stimulus, and if the physical stimulus is negative, more often than not, the mental stimulus is also negative. In the case of systemic physical abuse aka physical bullying, yes, the mental stimulus is going to be a negative one.

[IshCong]

No, when the bullying isn't 'massive', that just makes the effects smaller, it doesn't remove them entirely.

My entire post was dedicated to showing how your presumed IF/ENTIRELY scenario simply doesn't apply in the real world. "If the emotional damage is entirely the result of the bullied's ideas" is a very contrived scenario. The emotional damage is the result of the physical torment which translates immediately into mental torment because the mind and body are not separable. Every external physical stimulus results in a mental stimulus, and if the physical stimulus is negative, more often than not, the mental stimulus is also negative. In the case of systemic physical abuse aka physical bullying, yes, the mental stimulus is going to be a negative one.

Okay, this time it's my error. I should have used a different word, massive was just asking to be misinterpreted (probably because it doesn't mean what I meant).

By massive, and we'll leave meanings aside for a moment, I meant that it is serious, on a large scale and deliberately nasty. You also get playful bullying. That aside, the reaction is important.

The mind and body are distinct and separable. Normally, it is not teh case but that is not to say it cannot be done.

'Playful' bullying with the intent to be funny or friendly doesn't seem to be what the thread is about. That's not really bullying at all. Bullying is the systemic mental/emotional/physical abuse of a person over a period of time, with the intent to harm.

No, they're not. They're connected directly, and can't really be separated. What happens to the body winds up affecting the mind, since the mind is the place where everything is experienced in the first place. You 'feel' in your mind.

But what I find amusing is this line:

Every external physical stimulus results in a mental stimulus, and if the physical stimulus is negative, more often than not, the mental stimulus is also negative.

Clearly you understand what I am saying....

Okay, then what are you saying? By all means, explain it.

[IshCong]

Rite of passage? Pecking order? I haven't been bullied in school extensively, yet I can still defend myself. What, people can't live their lives without being bullied, in order to seperate who is 'wimpy' and 'not wimpy'?

Sure they can, but everyone gets bullied to some degree.

Bullying is systemic, malignant, and deliberate.
I think you're getting bullying confused with intermittent teasing.

[IshCong]

Bullying is systemic, malignant, and deliberate.
I think you're getting bullying confused with intermittent teasing.

Hmm, possibly a little bit. Anyways I really don't think bullying is that much of an issue. Maybe if I have a child that is bullied, but until then meh. Man up and deal it. Grin and bear it.

Well, I'm glad it matters once it affects you personally.
It's a lot easier to say 'grin and bear it' when:
1: You've never experienced it.
2: You aren't ostracized from an entire community, and systematically tormented physically, psychologically, and sometimes sexually for a period of years.
3: Are fully capable of finding persons willing to help you with your problems rather than say "man up".

[IshCong]

You really haven't experienced true bullying.

It hurts.

To the core.

Probably, but why not get mad instead of sad about it? I've never understood why some people always get sad/scared/depressed about situations like that. I always get mad. Very mad. Maybe I'm just odd though.

Because:
1: Not everyone happens to function like you.
2: Victims often get insulted more for reacting with anger, or else are further ignored by adults because they're always angry.
3: You can only stay angry so long. Try keeping it up for years. Eventually, it just crushes the willpower. Especially when everyone around you isn't paying attention, and resorts to 'man up'.